The sin that dwells in us....

Episkopos · Feb 6, 2020

Stranger said:
Don't misunderstand me here. I believe we who are believers are secure. I just don't trust that we are secure because of our ability to not sin.

That is an ideology that leaves out half of the truth. What about all who will be cut off? Half of the virgins with lamps are rejected. The Laodiceans are spit up and out.

The truth is that a Christian with a new birth is equivalent to a Jew with a natural birth. In Christ there is no difference between the two. So if we don't bear the right kind of fruit, we are still saved...but cast into outer darkness.Just like the unbelieving Jews. (Real faith has real works)

If God didn't spare the natural original branches ...why would He spare the new ones?

So then the fear of the Lord is still wisdom. But how many of us moderns are wise? Very few indeed.

Episkopos · Feb 6, 2020

Stranger said:
I agree.

Stranger

Whoa...that's a surprise and a half!

But amen!

Stranger · Feb 6, 2020

stunnedbygrace said:
It's just an odd thing when you think about it, isn't it? I used to think Satan rebelled, was cast from Gods presence, God at some point came to that place of casting out and said, let there be light. So He just made even MORE beings that rebelled (Us).

But sometimes I wonder now if maybe we ourselves, the creation of us, IS what made Satan rebel. Because sibling rivalry is in us with no good explanation of WHY it is in us, unless it entered us through Satan's influence in us and the fall. Its actually the first story we hear after the fall - the firstborn going after the secondborn.

I have a photograph of myself as a baby in my crib. I'm laying on my stomach and above the top of my diaper there is a huge, angry bite mark in which you can see every tooth imprint of my sister's mouth where she bit me, before I could even walk! That's not God in my 2 year old sister. God didn't put that there.

The desire of satan to be like God is what his original sin was. (Is. 14:14) Associated with this desire was rule over the earth. God's introduction of man to instead be the ones who would rule over the earth infuriated satan. Thus we have the spiritual conflict surrounding the earth today.

Indeed satan has a jealousy and hatred against man.

Stranger

Stranger · Feb 6, 2020

Episkopos said:
That is an ideology that leaves out half of the truth. What about all who will be cut off? Half of the virgins with lamps are rejected. The Laodiceans are spit up and out.

The truth is that a Christian with a new birth is equivalent to a Jew with a natural birth. In Christ there is no difference between the two. So if we don't bear the right kind of fruit, we are still saved...but cast into outer darkness.Just like the unbelieving Jews. (Real faith has real works)

If God didn't spare the natural original branches ...why would He spare the new ones?

So then the fear of the Lord is still wisdom. But how many of us moderns are wise? Very few indeed.

In the parable of the Ten Virgins , (Matt. 25:1-13), the virgins are not the Bride. See (Ps. 45:10-17).

The Laodicean church is the final form of the church on earth, which is apostate. (Rev. 3:14-19) Thus that church is rejected by God and Christ is found to be on the outside of it. (Rev. 3:20-21) Christ is giving the invitation of salvation to those in the apostate church. They are not saved.

The contrast between the natural branches and the wild branches is a contrast of Israel and Gentile. It is not a contrast of one who is saved and then loses salvation. It is a contrast of the people to whom that salvation is primarily directed to.

I disagree with your statement that the Christian being born-again is equivalent to a Jew with a natural birth. The Christian born-again is saved. The Jew born a Jew is not saved.

Stranger

stunnedbygrace · Feb 6, 2020

Nancy said:
Could there be some things that we might think is actually sin when it is not? For instance, when somebody hurts you or uses you and never repents, or admits it but continue to lie about it and, you (in general) have thoughts of arguing with them in your mind, and calling them things like...you are of your father, the devil, you kill steal and destroy!! Stuff like that. When this happens with me, and it does, I will get angry all over again...I know this hurts nobody BUT our own selves yet, I will repent of it and BEG God to give me the ability to honestly forgive them...in my heart. These things I believe take time and, God WILL deliver us from these thoughts as time goes by. I know there are sins, trespasses and such but...all of those too are sin to me. We are human and have lived in certain patterns that have not totally shed from us so, how DOES one stop these thoughts from slipping in, other than pray, of course.

I do not thinkyoucan stop those thoughts from slipping in. The flesh is against the Spirit always. This is not something that gets better, where your flesh slowly gets to be less and less against the Spirit. You are a condemned building.

But I think we will struggle and struggle in it and pray and pray about it and become depressed about it for as many years as we live, unless and until we give in and say, this is who I am, who I am has not gotten better and better. Then I think we can begin to make some progress.

stunnedbygrace · Feb 6, 2020

I think we see that we do not desire to sin anymore and that it disturbs us when we do and we think we are getting better, so we work really hard to not sin. But at some point, surely we have to see that it is in us and that it doesnt leave.

The desire to not sin is not freedom from sin.

marks · Feb 6, 2020

CharismaticLady said:
You mean this is before we are born again, right?

This is describing the "mind of the flesh".

marks · Feb 6, 2020

Not me said:
This is very much learned. God is alive and working in you and the truths pointed to can only be learned by being taught from above.

Great read and may God continue to increase Himself in you.

In Christ, Not me

I agree. I think this is the renewing of the mind.

That teaching from above is I think when the words of Scripture become illuminated by the Holy Spirit, and we see how God defines us, and we believe it, and in believing, are free.

I think the Bible is like our DNA, and our new creation spirit is like a fish, and the Word is the water, and our spirit takes to the Word as life itself. Except when our understandings fall short, our confidence can be weakened.

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God.

Of course you know these things!

Much love!

Episkopos · Feb 6, 2020

Stranger said:
In the parable of the Ten Virgins , (Matt. 25:1-13), the virgins are not the Bride. See (Ps. 45:10-17).

The Laodicean church is the final form of the church on earth, which is apostate. (Rev. 3:14-19) Thus that church is rejected by God and Christ is found to be on the outside of it. (Rev. 3:20-21) Christ is giving the invitation of salvation to those in the apostate church. They are not saved.

The contrast between the natural branches and the wild branches is a contrast of Israel and Gentile. It is not a contrast of one who is saved and then loses salvation. It is a contrast of the people to whom that salvation is primarily directed to.

I disagree with your statement that the Christian being born-again is equivalent to a Jew with a natural birth. The Christian born-again is saved. The Jew born a Jew is not saved.

Stranger

The idea of being "saved" is a human interpretation and tradition based on an oversimplified ideology meant to fill pews. We are in a race...where there are winners...to honour....and losers...to dishonour.

So your whole premise is wrong from the beginning. No one finishes the race before it's end. No one is "saved" before the end. He who endures to the end will be saved. But the race also has losers. They who lose everything but their lives.

And of course only the virgins with oil are the bride. That is obvious. But the rejected ones were also believers...they had the form...the lamp...but without the power...that the oil provided. So these never learned to walk in the sinless light of Jesus Christ.

CharismaticLady · Feb 6, 2020

marks said:
This is describing the "mind of the flesh".

So that is before we become a Christian and receive the mind of Christ. Just confirming you are not one of those who believes we are always totally depraved.

marks · Feb 6, 2020

CharismaticLady said:
So that is before we become a Christian and receive the mind of Christ. Just confirming you are not one of those who believes we are always totally depraved.

We are a new creation. The flesh remains depraved. That's what it means when it says, therefore it is no longer I that sin, but the sin that lives in me.

Much love!

CharismaticLady · Feb 6, 2020

Stranger said:
Thus my question. If satan and man were perfect and sinless before, what assurance do we have that we or the angels will not fall again?

The angels overcame the temptation to follow Satan.

Revelation 2 and 3: Christians

7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” ’

11 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” ’

17 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.” ’

25 But hold fast what you have till I come. 26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—

27 ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’—

as I also have received from My Father; 28 and I will give him the morning star.

5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. 12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.

20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Stranger said:
You keep wanting to connect this question to your belief that the born-again Christian is now sinless. And I can see why. If satan and Adam were already in eternity, and sinless, but sinned, which they were and did, that goes against your sinless Christian doctrine. In other words, your ability to not sin is in question.

Adam and all who were looking forward to the Seed of the Woman to save them, their sins were not held against them. They were overlooked.

Romans 3:
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Stranger said:
I believe the same. When we are born-again we are babes in Christ. And yes we have many trials and tests.

You say our condition at the time of death determines if we go to heaven. I know you say 'overcomers' but that is what you mean, correct? So, if you are on a roller coaster ride and it flies off the track and you take the Lord's name in vain, then crash and die. Too bad. Hell for you.

My outbursts are "Oh fudge!" and "Oh, sugar!" But, I'm an overcomer. I can't say for the rest of Christianity.

Stranger said:
There are to many Scriptures that teach the importance of the believer being cleansed daily to even entertain this doctrine of yours that the Christian is no longer a sinner because he is born-again. It is a nice thought, but completely unobtainable. We still carry around this body that is under condemnation. It is a body of sin and death. Even on your best day, you are a saved sinner. Arn't you?

We are to keep the commandments of Jesus and abide in Him today. And do it again tomorrow, and the next day, and again and again until the end. It is just part of our born again nature. I am no longer a sinner, God calls me a child of God. 1 John 3:1-24

Stranger said:
(Dan. 9:24) is to the nation of Israel to complete her 70 weeks of judgement.

I've been grafted in.

Stranger said:
Don't misunderstand me here. I believe we who are believers are secure. I just don't trust that we are secure because of our ability to not sin.

We are secure because we keep the commandments of Jesus and are pleasing in His sight. We abide in Him, and He in us. Anyone who still sins is a slave to sin and their father is still the devil.

Not me · Feb 6, 2020

marks said:
I agree. I think this is the renewing of the mind.

That teaching from above is I think when the words of Scripture become illuminated by the Holy Spirit, and we see how God defines us, and we believe it, and in believing, are free.

I think the Bible is like our DNA, and our new creation spirit is like a fish, and the Word is the water, and our spirit takes to the Word as life itself. Except when our understandings fall short, our confidence can be weakened.

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God. Be

Of course you know these things!

Much love!

Jumping for joy in Christ!...as this inner teaching that comes from above becomes recognized as being, from, in and by the Spirit.

A fellow sojourner to Him that loves us, Not me

CharismaticLady · Feb 6, 2020

marks said:
We are a new creation. The flesh remains depraved. That's what it means when it says, therefore it is no longer I that sin, but the sin that lives in me.

Much love!

Oh Mark, Mark, Mark. What am I going to do with you. You are quoting Romans 7!!! Take out the chapter break and read the conclusion and the resolution to the matter of SIN that dwelt in me. Romans 7:20 is ancient history in a Christian.

20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

1 John 3:5 Jesus came to take away our sin and in Him there is no sin.

Mark, the brain is flesh and part of our decaying body, but the mind in the brain is spirit, and that is where our nature is. We must be born again with a new nature. It is the mind that controls the flesh, and we have the mind of Christ as long as we abide in Him, and He in us.

2 Peter 1:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

bbyrd009 · Feb 6, 2020

stunnedbygrace said:
I do not thinkyoucan stop those thoughts from slipping in. The flesh is against the Spirit always. This is not something that gets better, where your flesh slowly gets to be less and less against the Spirit. You are a condemned building.

But I think we will struggle and struggle in it and pray and pray about it and become depressed about it for as many years as we live, unless and until we give in and say, this is who I am, who I am has not gotten better and better. Then I think we can begin to make some progress.

nice imo
if you then, being evil...

stunnedbygrace said:
I think we see that we do not desire to sin anymore and that it disturbs us when we do and we think we are getting better, so we work really hard to not sin. But at some point, surely we have to see that it is in us and that it doesnt leave.

The desire to not sin is not freedom from sin.

im noticing that there is even an aspect to "sin" as more of an individual perception, rather than a cold hard fact

bbyrd009 · Feb 6, 2020

CharismaticLady said:
So that is before we become a Christian and receive the mind of Christ. Just confirming you are not one of those who believes we are always totally depraved.

"Christ i like; Christians, not so much"

marks · Feb 6, 2020

CharismaticLady said:
God already knew Satan would rebel even though he was perfect. Adam was perfect also. Do you really think God was surprised? When that last day comes, God knows now there will not be anymore who will sin - forever. Jesus was chosen to die before the foundation of the world. That is even before Satan sinned. Satan hadn't sinned before Creation week. His first sin was in the Garden of Eden.

What is horrible to think about is there are many in the Church believing they are saved, but have never overcome sin. They are taught they will sin up until the day they die for as long as they are in this body of flesh and bone. They know nothing of the power of being born again. That false doctrine goes against the words of Jesus and all the apostles, and so does the modern definition of grace (the main heresy) Jude 1:4. Satan knows scripture, and he know that what a man thinks in his heart, so is he. If he keeps telling himself he is a sinner, instead of reckoning himself dead to sin, he will live up to being a sinner. But the truth could make them free. Jesus came to free us from sin indeed. And He has give us His Own Spirit to change our desires. You will do what comes naturally - either of the old carnal nature, or of the new divine nature. It is not our power, but Christ's. But our free will still needs not fight the Spirit that has been placed in us by telling ourselves these teachers are right - sin is too much fun to give up so let their definition of grace cover up your sins while you party under the covering. They'll find themselves 'partying' in hell.

John 8:32-36
32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

But remember, your definitions still allow sins, as you call them sins not unto death. In saying we are completely free from sin, you mean only certain sins, those "sins unto death", while I don't divide sins into groups, I assert we have been made free from all sin, not just some, because we've equally been set free from our flesh, the source of sins.

Anything that falls short of God's glory, anything that does not specifically find it's origin in our faith in Jesus, Anything other than these is sin.

Yes, I agree, it is horrible to think about all those who feel so defeated that the feel like they will never be free! When they are free!

What about those who teach that even One sin shows that they don't even know Jesus! What does that communicate to those who do, and are in the way of sanctifiction?

A correct understanding of the flesh and the new creation, what these words mean that "it is No Longer I that sin, but the sin that lives in me", the correct understanding encompasses what we experience in life, and teaches us our freedom from the power of sin and the ravages of sin.

Much love!

marks · Feb 6, 2020

stunnedbygrace said:
But sometimes I wonder now if maybe we ourselves, the creation of us, IS what made Satan rebel. Because sibling rivalry is in us with no good explanation of WHY it is in us, unless it entered us through Satan's influence in us and the fall. Its actually the first story we hear after the fall - the firstborn going after the secondborn.

I've come to think that Satan's sin was envy, when he realized that men, not angels were being created to be with God as His family, and that the angels, him included, were to serve us to make that happen.

As I read the Bible, it seems to me that angels were created about the 2nd or 3rd day, looking at Psalm 104. I can imagine this cherub that covers, filled with wonder and glory and power as created by God, then watching God pat together some mud, and breathe life, and stand Adam to his feet. And this cherub see this, and thinks, not them, not these "mud people", ME! I will ascend into heaven! Not them!! I will be like the Most High, not them! Just something I've thought about.

I see envy as the twin sister of pride. Envy is the feeling of entitlement to what God has given to another.

Much love!

stunnedbygrace · Feb 6, 2020

bbyrd009 said:
nice imo
if you then, being evil...

im noticing that there is even an aspect to "sin" as more of an individual perception, rather than a cold hard fact

Or maybe not so much an individual perception as...a growing awareness.

stunnedbygrace · Feb 6, 2020

marks said:
I've come to think that Satan's sin was envy, when he realized that men, not angels were being created to be with God as His family, and that the angels, him included, were to serve us to make that happen.

As I read the Bible, it seems to me that angels were created about the 2nd or 3rd day, looking at Psalm 104. I can imagine this cherub that covers, filled with wonder and glory and power as created by God, then watching God pat together some mud, and breathe life, and stand Adam to his feet. And this cherub see this, and thinks, not them, not these "mud people", ME! I will ascend into heaven! Not them!! I will be like the Most High, not them! Just something I've thought about.

I see envy as the twin sister of pride. Envy is the feeling of entitlement to what God has given to another.

Much love!

I like this post very much, marks!

The sin that dwells in us....

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