The sin that dwells in us....

marks · Feb 6, 2020

CharismaticLady said:
I am. It is the basis for the most dangerous false doctrine in Christianity.

Personally, I think we need to accept the Word as it is written, and when the apostle makes these simple declarative statements, they should be understood as such.

But again, I remind, while you teach sinlessness, the sinlessness you teach is not in my view a true sinlessness, as you allow the commission of "sins not unto death", as as we've seen from the Law, if we go there for illumination on what these sins not unto death include, lying and stealing among other things.

I really don't see how this doctrine works out.

On the other hand, if sin is sin is sin, and Jesus came to free us from All sin, and not just some sin, and the way He does this is by a new creation, though we remain in these bodies of flesh, I believe that we have power over All sin, and even when the flesh seems to show it's strength, by God's grace, through faith, we can overcome All sins. Though I believe it's typically a process in the Christians life making it their life.

Much love!

CharismaticLady · Feb 6, 2020

marks said:
Personally, I think we need to accept the Word as it is written, and when the apostle makes these simple declarative statements, they should be understood as such.

But again, I remind, while you teach sinlessness, the sinlessness you teach is not in my view a true sinlessness, as you allow the commission of "sins not unto death", as as we've seen from the Law, if we go there for illumination on what these sins not unto death include, lying and stealing among other things.

I really don't see how this doctrine works out.

On the other hand, if sin is sin is sin, and Jesus came to free us from All sin, and not just some sin, and the way He does this is by a new creation, though we remain in these bodies of flesh, I believe that we have power over All sin, and even when the flesh seems to show it's strength, by God's grace, through faith, we can overcome All sins. Though I believe it's typically a process in the Christians life making it their life.

Much love!

Yes, I agree with you. Whether sins unto death, or trespasses, we have been given everything we need to be sinless. Even trespasses. But even if we haven't committed a trespass (which we don't know one way or the other), we are still to be perfect in forgiving each other.

And I agree that the word of God is clear when read to the end of the teaching. Peter was right when he said that Paul's writings are hard to understand. It is no wonder that Paul's teachings get twisted when passages are read out of context, which is so easy to do, and itching ears want it to say their inability to be sinless is normal because our body hasn't yet been immortalized. And Jude 1:4 is the result - turning the grace of God into licentiousness.

I can see why Paul needed to tell people that even though Jesus took away our sin from our nature and gave us eternal life, didn't mean our body wouldn't still die. We have eternal life, but this body will still decay because of Adam's sin. That is perfectly reasonable to need to explain back then so that when a loved one did die, they wouldn't then think they were lost, or that the gospel was fake. But now it has been twisted to reasoning that because of our mortal body will still die because of sin, that means we will still sin until we receive a new body. One has nothing to do with the other! Numbskulls! But I've heard that stupidity taught on these forums for years! It is a case of the lie taught for centuries is now truth, and the truth is too unbelievable for our carnal reasoning, so must be a heresy. Did you know that on some Christian forum sites I've been on that teaching sinlessness is against the rules? That is one rule that the words of Jesus has to trump (John 8:32-36), even if I'm the only one teaching that the truth can make us free.

stunnedbygrace · Feb 7, 2020

marks said:
Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness. Believing God was counted for righteousness, not works. None of our works will render us righteous. Only if we are made righteous by God. Not only imputation, but impartation also. Like saying we are both adopted by God and born of God. We are His children both by adoption and by birth. And we are righteous by justification, and by a new creation.

Much love!

The obedience of faith is not works, first of all, and secondly, only God can see the end of a man from the beginning so only He can say whether a man is righteous or deceived or anywhere in between.

Stranger · Feb 7, 2020

Episkopos said:
The idea of being "saved" is a human interpretation and tradition based on an oversimplified ideology meant to fill pews. We are in a race...where there are winners...to honour....and losers...to dishonour.

So your whole premise is wrong from the beginning. No one finishes the race before it's end. No one is "saved" before the end. He who endures to the end will be saved. But the race also has losers. They who lose everything but their lives.

And of course only the virgins with oil are the bride. That is obvious. But the rejected ones were also believers...they had the form...the lamp...but without the power...that the oil provided. So these never learned to walk in the sinless light of Jesus Christ.

That's a lie of the first magnitude. Salvation is from God. (Job 13:16) (Ps. 3:8) (Acts 4:12) (Rom. 1:16) (Rom. 10;10) These are just a few of the many many references.

The virgins are not the bride. See again (Ps. 45). Pay attention this time.

Stranger

Stranger · Feb 7, 2020

CharismaticLady said:
The angels overcame the temptation to follow Satan.

Revelation 2 and 3: Christians

7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” ’

11 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” ’

17 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.” ’

25 But hold fast what you have till I come. 26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—

27 ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’—

as I also have received from My Father; 28 and I will give him the morning star.

5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. 12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.

20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Adam and all who were looking forward to the Seed of the Woman to save them, their sins were not held against them. They were overlooked.

Romans 3:
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

My outbursts are "Oh fudge!" and "Oh, sugar!" But, I'm an overcomer. I can't say for the rest of Christianity.

We are to keep the commandments of Jesus and abide in Him today. And do it again tomorrow, and the next day, and again and again until the end. It is just part of our born again nature. I am no longer a sinner, God calls me a child of God. 1 John 3:1-24

I've been grafted in.

We are secure because we keep the commandments of Jesus and are pleasing in His sight. We abide in Him, and He in us. Anyone who still sins is a slave to sin and their father is still the devil.

You still didn't answer my question. If satan and man were sinless before, what assurance do we have that we or the angels will not fall again? Good verses though.

Adam's sin was not overlooked. He sinned by breaking a commandment. (Rom. 5:12-14) Those who sinned without law, their sins were overlooked. You are in error here. So, if satan and man sinned while in eternity and innocence, how is it your ability to not sin is any security to remain in Heaven?

Well, you have been saying for the rest of Christianity. Why is this any different. I gave you an example to challenge your theology. You can answer according to your beliefs. So, if I have a wreck and just before I die I take the Lords name in vain, am I doomed to hell?

Yes God calls you a child of God. And God calls you a sinner also. (1 John 1:10)

You haven't been grafted into Israel. You have been grafted into the salvation based on the Abrahamic Covenant. Just as Israel is a branch of. Just as at this time, Gentiles are a branch of. (Rom. 11:15-25)

My question revolves around our being in Heaven with the Lord, not here and now. What assurance do we have that man or the angels will not rebel again if they rebelled the first time in Heaven or in innocence? Is your obedience to God going to keep you secure in Heaven?

Stranger

Episkopos · Feb 7, 2020

Stranger said:
That's a lie of the first magnitude. Salvation is from God. (Job 13:16) (Ps. 3:8) (Acts 4:12) (Rom. 1:16) (Rom. 10;10) These are just a few of the many many references.

The virgins are not the bride. See again (Ps. 45). Pay attention this time.

Stranger

You are issuing pure hyperbole...and itself this is way off base. So just another false statement and accusation...that goes with your brain conditioning. Look at the text...

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

They went in together as per the Jewish wedding tradition. The guests don't do that. This is the bride. Remember that the bride was already betrothed for a year or so. So she was ready and waiting.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

Why say Lord? The bride says lord to her husband. The Hebrew word for husband means "master" (בעל)...or "Baal."Women who are not married to a man don't call him "lord."

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

The guests are gleaned from the highways and byways....they are not known specifically by face or name. BUT Jesus knows each of His own by both.

CharismaticLady · Feb 7, 2020

Stranger said:
You still didn't answer my question. If satan and man were sinless before, what assurance do we have that we or the angels will not fall again? Good verses though.

I don't know how to say it any other way. I trust God, what more assurance do you need. Besides, the lake of fire burns forever. Zap!

Stranger said:
Yes God calls you a child of God. And God calls you a sinner also. (1 John 1:10)

We were all "sinners." But no longer. Now He calls me a "child of God." Verse 9 took care of that. Are you wondering why verse 10 is after verse 9? Semitic writing style. John was Hebrew.

Stranger said:
So, if I have a wreck and just before I die I take the Lords name in vain, am I doomed to hell?

I doubt it. That is more a trespass if a sin at all. Taking the Lord's name in vain, is more than what we've watered it down to be. Still I've made up my own swear words that have become habit that do not offend. But in a case that severe, I may be calling out to God too. But that certainly wouldn't be in 'vain.'

Stranger said:
You haven't been grafted into Israel. You have been grafted into the salvation based on the Abrahamic Covenant. Just as Israel is a branch of. Just as at this time, Gentiles are a branch of. (Rom. 11:15-25)

I disagree. They are still direct descendants of Abraham. They are the natural branches. I am wild. The ones who were cut off can easily be grafted back into their own olive tree.

Stranger said:
My question revolves around our being in Heaven with the Lord, not here and now. What assurance do we have that man or the angels will not rebel again if they rebelled the first time in Heaven or in innocence? Is your obedience to God going to keep you secure in Heaven?

Yes.

Episkopos · Feb 7, 2020

CharismaticLady said:
I can agree with that. It is just applying Romans 7:14-23 to Christians I cannot abide.

The new covenant is about getting a new heart...not a new mind. The mind needs to be renewed by living from the heart. So then Romans 7 is a realization that being born again (Christ in you) does not instantly remedy all the problems of sin. No, we also need to abide in Christ to be filled with the Spirit so that no room is left for sin. When the Spirit's life is flowing out of you...no impurities are possible. But a stagnant pond or lake that is not flowing can become brackish. Just like our own souls. So then many are satisfied that they love God now while still in the grip of sin...believing that they are covered for their behaviour....and that their beliefs justify them. But these have no oil in their lamps. We need to go to God to purchase that oil...to the throne of grace to receive the grace of translation into His kingdom where we are saved to walk as Jesus walked. To be WHERE where He is. We need to abide in Him who knew no sin...no longer I but Him...because in Him is no sin.

CharismaticLady · Feb 7, 2020

Episkopos said:
The new covenant is about getting a new heart...not a new mind.

I believe they are one and the same. It is also a super-sensitized conscience.

As far as Romans 7, it is about the law. Jesus freed us from the law by freeing us from sin (the reason for the law)

stunnedbygrace · Feb 7, 2020

Stranger said:
That's a lie of the first magnitude. Salvation is from God. (Job 13:16) (Ps. 3:8) (Acts 4:12) (Rom. 1:16) (Rom. 10;10) These are just a few of the many many references.

I'm not understanding exactly what you object to about the man's post. You think that because he thinks half the virgins are the bride that he thinks salvation is not from God...? Confused.

Episkopos · Feb 7, 2020

CharismaticLady said:
I believe they are one and the same. It is also a super-sensitized conscience.

As far as Romans 7, it is about the law. Jesus freed us from the law by freeing us from sin (the reason for the law)

God works on us....but we also must seek God for the full measure of grace. So they are not the same at all. If you visit me...you can know where I live....but that doesn't tell me where you live. How can we follow Christ is we only know Him when He is with us? We also need to go to WHERE He is. That is what abiding means.The power lies with Him and where He is.

We can have a sensitive conscience...but that just convicts us in our weakness towards sin...UNTIL we are actually filled with His presence. We need to go to the source. Jesus frees us from the pressure of the law on us outwardly since grace is pushing us (constraining us) from within.

stunnedbygrace · Feb 7, 2020

It's interesting to me to see the way everyone deals with the problem of sin still in them. There is a spectrum of different ways they go. In every case, they latch onto one ball and drop other balls and think they're juggling well with one ball.

It's a missing of the forest for the trees. It sort of reminds me of Biology in college...Bio 101 looked at man as a...macrocosm. It showed the big picture. Each successive biology class focused with more magnification until in the end, you were down to examining the smallest things that make up the man. 101 was learning the different systems and parts in a macro way - skin, bones, circulatory system, digestive system, etc. Then each class would take one or more of the systems and examine it more closely until you were looking at a huge magnification and the minutest details. You never lost sight of the macro-being of bio 101, you just came to see it in much more detail and how it all interacted.

stunnedbygrace · Feb 7, 2020

Its like, you have to keep the bigger picture in mind or else, as you focus on the individual details, you then stand back and get the distance to see the big picture again and realize you've got a Frankenstein on your hands.

Truther · Feb 7, 2020

Not me said:
Romans 7:20 (NKJV)
Now if I do what I will not [to do,] it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

Getting rid of the sin that dwells in us is the purpose of our salvation, that we might walk worthy onto God. This is the newness of life that is for all Christians to walk in in this life. No amount of self will or strength of will will be able to overcome that sin that dwells in us. But thanks be to God He has made another way, righteousness apart from the law has been brought in. Where the works of the law will be fulfilled in us, but not by us. Faith in God, and a ever present desire to overcome this sin is now what is required. A ever present desire towards being made free from sin. This desire added with faith is now what is required to overcome the sin that dwells in us. For the just shall live by faith is now the directive we as Christians are to live by. This faith in the operation of God in us, a moment by moment causing us to walk in His statutes. A moment by moment walking in newness of life. It is recognizing and realizing what our salvation in Christ consists of that is that that will free one from the sin that dwells in them.

Which is the answer to this question;

How could one be guaranteed to never ever sin again, from now to all eternity?

There is but one way and that is, if right now you were to die. Death is that that frees one from the sin that dwells in them.....Christ tasted death for every man. This is how He fulfilled the law, by taking us to death with Him thereby freeing us from the law and the requirements of the law. Henceforth scripture says;

Romans 6:1-2(NKJV)
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

“we who have died to sin”

This is the reckoning that the scripture speaks of, that is the one thing that is necessary to be made free from sin. To reckon this truth to be true in our lives moment by moment as we go through the day. This is the way of righteousness by faith apart from the law that Christ’s death and resurrection has opened up to man. The heart that desires to be freed from the sin that dwells in them, can be freed from that sin by the faith of the heart reckoning themselves dead to sin and alive unto God by a moment by moment reckoning of this truth to be true. The truth of truths, “that when Christ died we died”, the strength of that death frees us from the sin that dwells in us. Faith in one being joined with Him in His death opens up that walking in newness of life that is the desire of the new creation in us. To walk pleasing to God in all things.

May God continue to open up and work these truths in us, so we might walk in newness of life and be pleasing to God in all things, as we live the rest of our time in the body.

A fellow servant of His, Not me

Our sins are initially remitted through water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.

After that, we are commissioned to walk in the Spirit and bear the fruits of the Spirit to remain free from the Law(sin).

If we cease to walk in the Spirit, we get carnal and sin again.

We must pray without ceasing and walk in the Spirit consistently to remain overcomers from sin.

Paul in Romans 7, was admitting that his flesh is well able to fall into sin and back under the Law if he ceases to walk in the Spirit.

This goes for all of us today too.

Not me · Feb 7, 2020

Truther said:
Our sins are initially remitted through water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.

After that, we are commissioned to walk in the Spirit and bear the fruits of the Spirit to remain free from the Law(sin).

If we cease to walk in the Spirit, we get carnal and sin again.

We must pray without ceasing and walk in the Spirit consistently to remain overcomers from sin.

Paul in Romans 7, was admitting that his flesh is well able to fall into sin and back under the Law if he ceases to walk in the Spirit.

This goes for all of us today too.

How blessed we are to have a God who loves us so.....Be blessed, as we learn of Him, as our personal relationships with Him, teaches us all things, Not me

Truther · Feb 7, 2020

Not me said:
How blessed we are to have a God who loves us so.....Be blessed, as we learn of Him, as our personal relationships with Him, teaches us all things, Not me

Amen, you too my friend.

marks · Feb 7, 2020

stunnedbygrace said:
The obedience of faith is not works, first of all, and secondly, only God can see the end of a man from the beginning so only He can say whether a man is righteous or deceived or anywhere in between.

And yet the righteousness is imputed because of the faith. God could see in Abraham that he truly did believe. Saying that God imputes righteousness because He can see in advance the works Abraham will do is to subtly shift the imputation from being based on faith to being based on those works.

But if we let the Word stand as it says, it was that Abraham believed what God told him, and that believing was accounted to him as righteousness. Amd because Abraham believed God, he was even willing to kill his own son knowing God would then have to raise him from the dead. It's the believing that this behind those works and not the works themselves.

Much love!

CharismaticLady · Feb 7, 2020

Episkopos said:
We can have a sensitive conscience...but that just convicts us in our weakness towards sin...UNTIL we are actually filled with His presence. We need to go to the source. Jesus frees us from the pressure of the law on us outwardly since grace is pushing us (constraining us) from within.

I think we are talking about two different stages. I'm not talking about when we had a "weakness towards sin" when the Holy Spirit is drawing us to our need for Christ. That to me is before surrendering to Christ and becoming born again. "Being filled with His presence" is when we are actually a Christian. I was in that first stage for 30 years while going to church regularly. I fear many in the Church never leave that drawing stage and Jesus will say to them, "I never knew you."

Not me · Feb 7, 2020

marks said:
And yet the righteousness is imputed because of the faith. God could see in Abraham that he truly did believe. Saying that God imputes righteousness because He can see in advance the works Abraham will do is to subtly shift the imputation from being based on faith to being based on those works.

But if we let the Word stand as it says, it was that Abraham believed what God told him, and that believing was accounted to him as righteousness. Amd because Abraham believed God, he was even willing to kill his own son knowing God would then have to raise him from the dead. It's the believing that this behind those works and not the works themselves.

Much love!

As a thought;

I’m of the mind that the works spoken of in James, are the same as the fruit spoken of elsewhere. Works, being the outward manifestation of the fruit that having the Divine nature born in us produces by the fact of it’s very life in us.... The degree of the growth of that life in us produces the appropriate fruit for the amount of growth the Divine nature in us has been allowed, by us, to bring forth....Always in a constant state of growth.

(Anyways my two cents worth.)

Be blessed as we learn and grow in Him, Not me

marks · Feb 7, 2020

Not me said:
As a thought;

I’m of the mind that the works spoken of in James, are the same as the fruit spoken of elsewhere. Works, being the outward manifestation of the fruit that having the Divine nature born in us produces by the fact of it’s very life in us.... The degree of the growth of that life in us produces the appropriate fruit for the amount of growth the Divine nature in us has been allowed, by us, to bring forth....Always in a constant state of growth.

(Anyways my two cents worth.)

Be blessed as we learn and grow in Him, Not me

I think the same.

Much love!

The sin that dwells in us....

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