JOHN 20:6 DISPROVING THE SHROUD OF TURIN

Bobby Jo said:

People ignorantly debate the "merits" of the Shroud and the Sudarium (face cloth). They use the text -- which has it's own limitation; they use their logic -- which has it's own limitations; but they seldom use Science. And if they do use "Science" they selectively choose arguments which dispute the authenticity, rather than objectively considering each side.

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Sad joke.

Berserk said:

Duh, you are sadly confusing the Old Testament patriarch Joseph's coat of many colors with the Shroud purchased by the Sanhredrin member, Joseph of Arimathea.

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And you sadly assume that just because you assume Joseph bought the linen then, the piece had to be white in whole as you assume. But with due regard to Scripture about <<the Old Testament patriarch Joseph's coat of many colors>>, it is justified to believe that for the very "tomb he had hewn out of rock and wherein no one before had been laid”, Joseph, "according to" <<the Old Testament patriarch Joseph's coat of many colors>>, by the Providence of God had “purchased linen" <of many colors> for the very same reason prepared, in stock, and ready, to have the only body ever laid in that tomb, buried.

Bobby Jo said: ↑

GerhardEbersoehn said:


When people can't address the FACTS, -- they offer empty words none-the-less, or all-the-more ...

Whew,
Bobby Jo

GerhardEbersoehn said:

And you sadly assume ...

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It's a good thing we have ALL kind of people in this world. Those who understand History and can present a reasonable assessment of FACTS, -- and those who can't. Perhaps "G.E" should consider the former.

Whew,
Bobby Jo

Bobby Jo said:

Bobby Jo said: ↑
People ignorantly debate the "merits" of the Shroud and the Sudarium (face cloth). They use the text -- which has it's own limitation; they use their logic -- which has it's own limitations; but they seldom use Science. And if they do use "Science" they selectively choose arguments which dispute the authenticity, rather than objectively considering each side.
GerhardEbersoehn said:
Sad joke.

When people can't address the FACTS, -- they offer empty words none-the-less, or all-the-more ...
..
It's a good thing we have ALL kind of people in this world. Those who understand History and can present a reasonable assessment of FACTS, -- and those who can't. Perhaps "G.E" should consider the former.
..
Whew,
Bobby Jo

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Thanks; no sane person could ask for better <proof> of your, only, <FACT>, <<the Shroud and the Sudarium (face cloth) -- which has it's own limitation .. (own) logic -- (own) Science .. (own) arguments .. authenticity .. objective considering.>> Hell!

GerhardEbersoehn said:

Thanks; no sane person could ask for better ... Hell!

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It seems the first step to your "Hell" is ignorance:



... and there's no shortage of ignorance in the "church" and in the world.
Bobby Jo

Doug said:

John 20:6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,

20:7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.

These verses disprove the notion that the shroud of Turin is authentic.

The shroud is one piece of cloth depicting the body of Jesus from the head down. Verse 7 states the cloth napkin about his head was wrapped together separately so making it impossible for the face of Jesus to have been imprinted on the same piece of cloth as his body.

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I do wonder about the length of hair on this shroud as well as the image left on it as if this has been a person long deceased since hair and fingernails continue to grow after death and not sure how his body even suffered decay to such an extent to leave an impression like that on the shroud.

Since Paul pointed this out:

1 Corinthians 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

Then why wasn't one of the insults against Jesus was because of His supposed long hair as the shroud seem to testify? I think all the pictures and arts depicting Jesus are not accurate in the least and I need His help to get rid of that projected image of Him in art. because scripture painst a different picture of Him in prophesy.

Isaiah 53:1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Some could say that He had long hair after all for why He was despised, but I don't think so, because it is a shame for man to have long hair and Jesus had nothing to be shamed by for the Pharisees and the scribes would have made a point of it in shaming Him publicly.

Maybe I do not know how long the hair has to be for it to be a shame to a man, but I reckon we all shall know the truth when we see Him face to face one day.

Marymog said:

Are not all things possible with God?

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Including falsehood??

Stan B said:

Including falsehood??

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A falsehood is NOT possible with God....only man.

Let me ask you this, authentic or not, what does it matter?

reformed1689 said:

Let me ask you this, authentic or not, what does it matter?

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Suppose your house burnt down and it seemed that all your possessions were lost. Would it matter if you found that precious family photo albums survived the fire? The heart of the Christian faith is a personal relationship with Christ. Yet we have no accurate artistic portraits of Him, no descriptions of his physical appearance, no writings by Him, and no artifacts of Him. The existence of such an artifact can make a "personal" connection with Jesus seem more real. Indeed. the case for the Shroud's authenticity (see e. g. my post #7) has empowered countless seekers struggling with doubt to renew or activate their faith.

There are many unresolved inconsistencies and apparent contradictions in the NT resurrection narratives. Some NT scholars argue for this natural explanation of the empty tomb: On Saturday night, when Jesus' followers were gone, Roman soldiers took down the corpses of the other 2 thieves, removed Jesus' corpse from the nearby tomb, and then carried the 3 corpses away om a cart to be dumped in an unknown pit, as was standard Roman practice for crucifixions. Investigating scientists can't replicate the process by which the Shroud's image was formed. They argue that the image is the result of some kind of energy, but not a heat source. This energy may well have been produced by the divine act of bodily resurrection!That fact has made the decisive difference for faith for some who otherwise doubt the resurrection narratives. Indeed, even one of the Jewish investigators of the Shroud now travels the world, making the case that the Shroud is authentic.

Berserk said:

Suppose your house burnt down and it seemed that all your possessions were lost. Would it matter if you found that precious family photo albums survived the fire? The heart of the Christian faith is a personal relationship with Christ. Yet we have no accurate artistic portraits of Him, no descriptions of his physical appearance, no writings by Him, and no artifacts of Him. The existence of such an artifact can make a "personal" connection with Jesus seem more real. Indeed. the case for the Shroud's authenticity (see e. g. my post #7) has empowered countless seekers struggling with doubt to renew or activate their faith.

There are many unresolved inconsistencies and apparent contradictions in the NT resurrection narratives. Some NT scholars argue for this natural explanation of the empty tomb: On Saturday night, when Jesus' followers were gone, Roman soldiers took down the corpses of the other 2 thieves, removed Jesus' corpse from the nearby tomb, and then carried the 3 corpses away om a cart to be dumped in an unknown pit, as was standard Roman practice for crucifixions. Investigating scientists can't replicate the process by which the Shroud's image was formed. They argue that the image is the result of some kind of energy, but not a heat source. This energy may well have been produced by the divine act of bodily resurrection!That fact has made the decisive difference for faith for some who otherwise doubt the resurrection narratives. Indeed, even one of the Jewish investigators of the Shroud now travels the world, making the case that the Shroud is authentic.

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Sounds to me more like idol worship.

reformed1689 said:

Sounds to me more like idol worship.

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Duh, do you worship your family photo albums? Christians don't worship the Shroud! Rather, the Shroud, like Holy Communion, is a reminder valve to release affection and worship of the crucified and risen Christ.

Berserk said:

Duh, do you worship your family photo albums? Christians don't worship the Shroud! Rather, the Shroud, like Holy Communion, is a reminder valve to release affection and worship of the crucified and risen Christ.

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Wow did you really place an unverified relic on the level of a holy sacrament?

I'm ambivalent to the shroud although when it first became known I was very dubious.
The later photography and analyses does incline me to belief that it may in fact be real - except for the doubt that we aren't to venerate objects?
However from the practical point of the cloth being old and having a distinct image of a crucified man let's just think the resurrection through for a moment and realise that unlike the people Jesus and others resurrected previously with no mention of anything but them just starting to breath again Jesus is the son of GOD and just maybe GOD raised him with a blast of energy that is beyond our understanding? If that energy was a burst of light or radiation it would perhaps give the image. Jesus did leave the body for some time to go announce to the fallen angels in their abyss prison that Satan's plot had misfired and their confinement would continue another 3,000 years.
There are mentions of the spark of life in the Bible and maybe Jesus was raised with a super spark? And for that matter Moses's face was glowing radiant after speaking with GOD on My Sinai where the rocks are still blackened today.
And then a thought: does the image have any indication if it was made a short while after the tomb was sealed or after the three days?
If soon after sealing would the rigor mortis and blood patterns be different to those made if the body had lain still all Thursday evening, Friday and evening, Saturday and evening to Sunday dawn?
Then let's remember the centurion's spear thrust released separated blood and water so would there have been any liquid blood running down the body by the time it was wrapped in the shroud?
The sun was covered for Jesus's last three hours so perhaps the temperature had dropped to allow blood to run freely instead of drying in what we think may have been a hot Jerusalem.

Doug said:

John 20:6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,

20:7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.

These verses disprove the notion that the shroud of Turin is authentic.

The shroud is one piece of cloth depicting the body of Jesus from the head down. Verse 7 states the cloth napkin about his head was wrapped together separately so making it impossible for the face of Jesus to have been imprinted on the same piece of cloth as his body.

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Impossible? I thought anything was possible with God?

Stan B said:

Including falsehood??

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Falsehoods are lies soooo no a falsehood is not possible with God

reformed1689 said:

Let me ask you this, authentic or not, what does it matter?

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You pose a very good question. For arguments sake let’s say the Shroud is Jesus burial clothe. Would it be ok to venerate it?

Marymog said:

You pose a very good question. For arguments sake let’s say the Shroud is Jesus burial cloth. Would it be ok to venerate it?

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I would propose that Deut. 18 addresses Historical evidence:


As such, we see the Shroud not as a "golden calf", but rather a substantiation of the events and participants of those days.

Bobby Jo

Enow said:

I do wonder about the length of hair on this shroud as well as the image left on it as if this has been a person long deceased since hair and fingernails continue to grow after death and not sure how his body even suffered decay to such an extent to leave an impression like that on the shroud.

Since Paul pointed this out:

1 Corinthians 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

Then why wasn't one of the insults against Jesus was because of His supposed long hair as the shroud seem to testify? I think all the pictures and arts depicting Jesus are not accurate in the least and I need His help to get rid of that projected image of Him in art. because scripture painst a different picture of Him in prophesy.

Isaiah 53:1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Some could say that He had long hair after all for why He was despised, but I don't think so, because it is a shame for man to have long hair and Jesus had nothing to be shamed by for the Pharisees and the scribes would have made a point of it in shaming Him publicly.

Maybe I do not know how long the hair has to be for it to be a shame to a man, but I reckon we all shall know the truth when we see Him face to face one day.

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I don’t think hair/nails continue to grow

Do Hair and Nails Keep Growing After a Person Dies? | Live Science

Fingernails Grow After Death