The good news is, God will forgive him for his statue-worshipping idolatry - on account of his profound ignorance of Church teaching.
The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever
- Thread starter Zachary
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
You have three fingers pointing back at you (Matthew 7:1-6, Luke 6:41-42).
Also, I am certain that it is @Truther's experience as an ex-Catholic that when he was in that system of belief, the leadership motivated him to pray to statues.
That may not be your experience. It does not make his experience any less valid.
Last edited:
Then why do the RCC statues bleed or cry sometimes?...
A famous statue of the Virgin Mary has been recorded 'weeping' tears of blood. People have flocked to the home of the Frias family in the town of Metan in the Salta province in northwestern Argentina to see the statue known as the Virgin of the Mystic Rose.Nov 30, 2018
www.mirror.co.uk › news › world-news › crying-virgin-mary-statue-fil...
'Crying' Virgin Mary statue 'filmed weeping blood for the 38th time ...
Search for: Where is the statue that cries blood?
Why do folks kneel and pray before it?
Very good post. But the RCC is afraid of nepotism, so they will not allow priests to marry...never.
Surely you can understand how even Catholics can go astray, right? If the Catholic catechism endorses praying to Mary, then how can they not be seen when doing so in front of a statue of Mary as praying to her?
From the Catholic catechism: from this link: Catechism of the Catholic Church - The way of prayer
~~~2676 This twofold movement of prayer to Mary has found a privileged expression in the Ave Maria:
Hail Mary [or Rejoice, Mary]: the greeting of the angel Gabriel opens this prayer. It is God himself who, through his angel as intermediary, greets Mary. Our prayer dares to take up this greeting to Mary with the regard God had for the lowliness of his humble servant and to exult in the joy he finds in her.30
Full of grace, the Lord is with thee: These two phrases of the angel's greeting shed light on one another. Mary is full of grace because the Lord is with her. The grace with which she is filled is the presence of him who is the source of all grace. "Rejoice . . . O Daughter of Jerusalem . . . the Lord your God is in your midst."31 Mary, in whom the Lord himself has just made his dwelling, is the daughter of Zion in person, the ark of the covenant, the place where the glory of the Lord dwells. She is "the dwelling of God . . . with men."32 Full of grace, Mary is wholly given over to him who has come to dwell in her and whom she is about to give to the world.
Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. After the angel's greeting, we make Elizabeth's greeting our own. "Filled with the Holy Spirit," Elizabeth is the first in the long succession of generations who have called Mary "blessed."33 "Blessed is she who believed. . . . "34 Mary is "blessed among women" because she believed in the fulfillment of the Lord's word. Abraham. because of his faith, became a blessing for all the nations of the earth.35 Mary, because of her faith, became the mother of believers, through whom all nations of the earth receive him who is God's own blessing: Jesus, the "fruit of thy womb."
2677 Holy Mary, Mother of God: With Elizabeth we marvel, "And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"36 Because she gives us Jesus, her son, Mary is Mother of God and our mother; we can entrust all our cares and petitions to her: she prays for us as she prayed for herself: "Let it be to me according to your word."37 By entrusting ourselves to her prayer, we abandon ourselves to the will of God together with her: "Thy will be done."
Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death: By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the "Mother of Mercy," the All-Holy One. We give ourselves over to her now, in the Today of our lives. And our trust broadens further, already at the present moment, to surrender "the hour of our death" wholly to her care. May she be there as she was at her son's death on the cross. May she welcome us as our mother at the hour of our passing38 to lead us to her son, Jesus, in paradise. " ~~~
Now if you do not see anything wrong with praying to Mary even though only God can answer prayers and only God can be with us always... I am not sure you can correct any Catholic when they pray to Mary in front of a statue of Mary in order to abstain from that appearance of evil.
As it is, scripture limits only one way to come to God the Father by and only One Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, and thus only Jesus answers prayers so that the Father may be glorified in the Son for answers to prayers with no credit going to any one else.
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me... 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
That means praying to the Holy Spirit is out. It is not a practice taught by scripture at all. All invitations points to the Son in coming to God the Father for anything. The Holy Spirit is God but serves as the Comforter by dwelling within us; only Jesus Christ is at that throne of grace for it is by Him, we can pray to God the Father by which is in according to the will of God about Jesus Christ being the only Mediator between God and men.
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.... 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Scripture does not teach that Mary has any power nor was there any promise given for her to be with us always nor to intercede for us once she had passed on because she is not God.
Last edited:
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
Catholicism does not teach that Mary has any power apart from Christ, and she is not God, so why the straw man fallacies?
No saint, let alone Mary, whom is also a saint, that has passed on, is going to do Christ's work for Him in hearing prayers which only God can do, let alone be with anyone at the time of their death which only Christ can do because He is with them always.
If you catch Catholics praying to the statue of Mary, you may find it difficult to reprove them for doing so, especially when tears are coming down from the "eyes" of the statue or blood from the crucifix. Even a portrait of Jesus had tears running from it. Such "miraculous" events draws Catholics to come to it and pray to them. Surely you have heard of it?
So how can you defend them when obviously they are flocking to these idols and praying to them? What would be the point of travelling from so far away just to pray at that statue or portrait other than to think her presence is there or His Presence is there at that "idol"?
Jer 44:15, Then all the men which knew that their wives had burned incense unto other gods, and all the women that stood by, a great multitude, even all the people that dwelt in the land of Egypt, in Pathros, answered Jeremiah, saying,
Jer 44:16,As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the LORD, we will not hearken unto thee.
Jer 44:17, But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.
Jer 44:18, But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.
Jer 44:19, And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?
Jer 44:20, Then Jeremiah said unto all the people, to the men, and to the women, and to all the people which had given him that answer, saying,
Jer 44:21, The incense that ye burned in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, ye, and your fathers, your kings, and your princes, and the people of the land, did not the LORD remember them, and came it not into his mind?
Jer 44:22, So that the LORD could no longer bear, because of the evil of your doings, and because of the abominations which ye have committed; therefore is your land a desolation, and an astonishment, and a curse, without an inhabitant, as at this day.
Jer 44:23, Because ye have burned incense, and because ye have sinned against the LORD, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, nor walked in his law, nor in his statutes, nor in his testimonies; therefore this evil is happened unto you, as at this day.
Jer 44:24, Moreover Jeremiah said unto all the people, and to all the women, Hear the word of the LORD, all Judah that are in the land of Egypt:
Jer 44:25, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saying; Ye and your wives have both spoken with your mouths, and fulfilled with your hand, saying, We will surely perform our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her: ye will surely accomplish your vows, and surely perform your vows.
Jer 44:26, Therefore hear ye the word of the LORD, all Judah that dwell in the land of Egypt; Behold, I have sworn by my great name, saith the LORD, that my name shall no more be named in the mouth of any man of Judah in all the land of Egypt, saying, The Lord GOD liveth.
Jer 44:27, Behold, I will watch over them for evil, and not for good: and all the men of Judah that are in the land of Egypt shall be consumed by the sword and by the famine, until there be an end of them.
Jer 44:16,As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the LORD, we will not hearken unto thee.
Jer 44:17, But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.
Jer 44:18, But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.
Jer 44:19, And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?
Jer 44:20, Then Jeremiah said unto all the people, to the men, and to the women, and to all the people which had given him that answer, saying,
Jer 44:21, The incense that ye burned in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, ye, and your fathers, your kings, and your princes, and the people of the land, did not the LORD remember them, and came it not into his mind?
Jer 44:22, So that the LORD could no longer bear, because of the evil of your doings, and because of the abominations which ye have committed; therefore is your land a desolation, and an astonishment, and a curse, without an inhabitant, as at this day.
Jer 44:23, Because ye have burned incense, and because ye have sinned against the LORD, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, nor walked in his law, nor in his statutes, nor in his testimonies; therefore this evil is happened unto you, as at this day.
Jer 44:24, Moreover Jeremiah said unto all the people, and to all the women, Hear the word of the LORD, all Judah that are in the land of Egypt:
Jer 44:25, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saying; Ye and your wives have both spoken with your mouths, and fulfilled with your hand, saying, We will surely perform our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her: ye will surely accomplish your vows, and surely perform your vows.
Jer 44:26, Therefore hear ye the word of the LORD, all Judah that dwell in the land of Egypt; Behold, I have sworn by my great name, saith the LORD, that my name shall no more be named in the mouth of any man of Judah in all the land of Egypt, saying, The Lord GOD liveth.
Jer 44:27, Behold, I will watch over them for evil, and not for good: and all the men of Judah that are in the land of Egypt shall be consumed by the sword and by the famine, until there be an end of them.
You would think a Catholic could fathom why Mary would be so insulted to be called the Queen of Heaven.
It is unfortunate that Catholics are not hearing Him to defer them from honoring Mary.
Luke 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. 28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
Matthew 12:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
When anyone is not honoring the Son, they are no longer honoring the Father. They cannot honor Mary in order to hon or God the Father. They cannot even honor the Holy Spirit in order to honor God the Father. They can only honor the Father by only honoring the Son.
BreadOfLife
Well-Known Member
- Jan 2, 2017
- 20,945
- 3,391
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
The Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ (John 6:53-58, Luke 22:19–20; Matt. 26:26–28; Mark 14:22–24; 1 Cor. 11:23–25).
He's not an "idol" - He's God.
I understand your belief, but what makes an idol, an idol? We know that it is not wrong to make graven images since the Ark of the Covenant had some on it. Even the pole with the serpent on it made when Israel was in the wilderness as placed in the middle of the camp where if anyone got bit by a viper, they can look at that pole in the middle of the camp and be saved from the viper's poison. Later on, that pole became an object of worship for why it was needed to be destroyed.
So what makes an idol an idol? Something that was made with men's hands, and then treated as if that is a god. Right?
So my question is how can God even think about mimicking an appearance of evil for communion?
The only answer is... if He never called it an eucharist and the disciples didn't either, and He did say to do communion only in remembrance of Him for which Catholics say that is anathema to say that, as important as the Catholics make that out to be, why wasn't that taught as such in any letters of the churches in the N.T., especially for calling it an eucharist?
So I have discerned that John 6:53-58 is overlooking that Jesus was not talking about communion but about how to be saved; as in how to receive that bread of life in that chapter because it was not to be received as their forefathers did when they had eaten manna and are dead, but He did tell them how to receive that bread of life which was by coming to and believing in Jesus Christ and when they do that, He promised that they would never hunger nor thirst again as per John 6:35. And Jesus commented on why they had not received the bread of life in John 6:36 because they did not believe in Him. So that is proof Catholics took Jesus words out of context because He was not talking about communion, but about salvation.
Somewhere along the way, Catholic Church down thru history began adding a little word here and there and pretty soon, we got something never stated nor emphasized as such in the N.T. at all. Think about it. If Jesus was really talking about communion in John 6th chapter, then believers would only have to take it once if His promise that we would never hunger nor thirst again for it, right?
John 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. 34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
BreadOfLife
Well-Known Member
- Jan 2, 2017
- 20,945
- 3,391
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
Show me WHERE the Angel tells Mary that she will be pregnant without having sexual relations - BEFORE she asks the question.
She asked the question because she did NOT intend to have relations with a man.
You don't have a Scriptural leg to stand on here.
Another empty non-response . . .
Hogwash.
I gave you THREE verses that mention THREE Marys - and Mary of Bethany is NOT one of them:
1) Mary, mother of the Lord.
2) Mary, her "sister" (adelphe), wife of Clopas
3) 1Mary Magdelene
YOU'VE been watching too many movies . . .
Here's another problem for you:
Mark 3:16:18 identifies WHO this "James" is - and it is James the Less (Apostle)J - who is said to be the son of Alphaeus.
The Aramaic, "Alphaeus" is resndered as "Clopas" (Mark 15:40) in Greek.
Good luck twisting your way out of THAT one . . .
WRONG.
There is no "Normal" understanding of "until" in Biblical language - as I have AMPLY illustrated.
https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/true-trinity.31183/
I've ALREADY read this heresy.
ANY definition that differs from the Christian definition of the Trinity is heresy.
God isn't a piece of clay to be molded to YOUR shape.
And we are told to rebuke those who persist in sinning - PULBICLY - so that others may take warning (1 Tim. 5:20).
No - I simply threw their FALSE charges of "idolatry" back in theoir face and showed them that virtually EVERYBODY makes, displays or carries some form of "graven image" in their wallet - yet they condemn Catholics for going the same thing.
Besides the Commandment is against the WORSHIP pof them - NOT the making of them, as I have AMPLY shown with Scripture.
WRONG.
Jesus didn't "break" ANY Laws. He FULFILLED them. Your charge that he DID is blasphemy.
The false charges of the Pharisees were just that - FALSE.
TRANSLATION:
"I simply don't understand polyvalent symbolism - and I bit off WAY more than I can chew with this conversation" . . .
That's what I thought . . .
BreadOfLife
Well-Known Member
- Jan 2, 2017
- 20,945
- 3,391
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
In 1 Corinthians 11:27-30, Paul speaks to the reality of the Eucharist and the severity of the consequences to those who take this lightly: “Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying.”
This is pretty harsh language for something that Protestants claim is only a symbol.
This directly correlates to the Bread of Life discourse in John 6, where Jesus stated in no uncertain terms:
It is interesting to note that the usual Greek word used for human eating is “phagon”, however, this is NOT the word used in these passages. St. John uses the word, “trogon”, which means, to munch or to gnaw - like an animal. Jesus was again using hyperbole as he often did to drive his point across so that the crowd would understand that he was NOT speaking metaphorically. He meant what he said.
Just as the Paschal Lamb was to be eaten, it is also true for the Lamb of God.
In verse 60, his disciples said, "This saying is hard; who can accept it?"
Did Jesus explain what he "really" meant? No, he said: "Does this shock you?" He knew that some would not believe because they didn't have true faith from the Father.
After reading YOUR post - I see the same lack of faith in the words of Christ.
I don't need a scriptural leg to stand on...my position is based on common sense. People who are about to get married generally intend to have relations with their soon-to-be spouse. What makes Mary an exception to this rule?
How about Ezra 4:21...
Ezr 4:21, Give ye now commandment to cause these men to cease, and that this city be not builded, until another commandment shall be given from me.
Now, in context, the king of Medo-Persia would have very likely never given a commandment later to build the city again.
However, history bears out that the city was indeed rebuilt with its temple. So that "until" turned out to be fulfilled when it seemed to all that it never would be.
I have not departed from the creeds in my definition of the Trinity.
I hold that there is a distinction to be made between Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Nevertheless the three are one; and to say otherwise is to be in danger of being Tritheistic in your theology.
1 Timothy 5:20 does not nullify 1 Timothy 5:1-2. In fact, 1 Timothy 5:1-2 helps us to interpret 1 Timothy 5:20.
So then, why are you judging these Protestants for committing idolatry when you are guilty of the same thing; and were guilty first?
They baited you so that you would judge them...and in judging them you must realize that you are also judging yourself: for now you agree that it is idolatry.
Exo 20:10, But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Jhn 5:17, But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Jhn 5:18, Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
It is John's estimation under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost that Jesus had broken the sabbath; it does not say in the verse above that it was the Pharisees' estimation of Him that He had done so; but John declares plainly that, from his perspective, as he writes the holy scriptures (moved by the Holy Ghost), Jesus broke the sabbath.
The sabbath law declares that you shall not do any work on the sabbath. Jesus declared on the sabbath day (see John 5:9 as context) that He was working on that day (John 5:17). That is a violation of the letter of the sabbath day law.
I am not saying that Jesus sinned in doing this. Because 1) Jesus is the Lord of the sabbath (Matthew 12:8, Mark 2:28); 2) He came not after a carnal commandment but after the power of an endless life (Hebrews 7:16); 3) where there is a change of priesthood (as Jesus was High Priest according to the order of Melchizedec) there is of necessity a change also of the law (Hebrews 7:12 and context); and 4) the sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath (Mark 2:27).
And also, Jesus taught us by example what would become a norm for Christian obedience in the church; that we are no longer condemned by the letter of the law but rather are obedient to the spirit of it (Romans 7:6, 2 Corinthians 3:6).
Last edited:
Well, in context of what Paul was talking about, that unworthy manner was how they were not eating or drinking at home, but coming to church to seek their fill there for their meals at communion.
1 Corinthians 11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. 21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. 22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. 23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. 27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
So in context, that was the unworthy manner that Paul was talking about, and since he reaffirmed for what communion was for, to "do this in remembrance of Me", then yeah.. it is just a symbol, brother.
Hardly. I believe Jesus at His word how to receive the bread of life and that is by coming to & believing in Him. He was not talking about communion here at all but how to receive the bread of life; hence Him, by coming to and believing in Him. That is what He said plainly at the beginning of the topic of the bread of life and that is how He ended it with His disciples by noting how not every one will believe in Him as that one will betray Him namely Judas Iscariot.
But I know that it is on God to cause the increase to help you see the truth in His words in John 6:35 because if He was talking about communion, then for His promise to be true that we would never hunger nor thirst any more, then we would be taking communion only once. So obviously, He was not talking about communion.
I didn't see what scripture you used.
But I will amply show you the opposite with scripture:
Exo 20:4, Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Right there in the ten commandments; which everyone ought to know.
It is a shame that there is such biblical illiteracy in the Catholic Church.
Similar threads
