HEBREWS 8 THE NEW COVENANT IS NOT FOR THE CHURCH

Doug · Feb 8, 2020

Stumpmaster said:
Can you prove your delineations? To date not one person who subscribes to your doctrine has been able to.

Romans 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

Verses 24 and 25 above refers to the holy nation, the little flock (Luke 12:32), the believing remnant. According to verse 24 the believing Gentiles are also of those whom he has "called".

That Paul is referring to the remnant of Israel is evident by Romans 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Harvest 1874 · Feb 8, 2020

Doug said:
Hebrews 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

The writer of Hebrews was writing to believing Jews in Christ, who believed the gospel of the kingdom, and were awaiting the coming of Christ to establish their Davidic kingdom on earth (Matthew 4:23 Jeremiah 23:5).

Christ was their High Priest and mediator of a better covenant.

Nowhere does Paul say that the church, the body of Christ, in this dispensation, is under covenant.

8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

The first covenant was not faulty, the fault lied with Israel who failed to keep it.

The writer of Hebrews is referencing Jeremiah 31:31-34 in which the Lord will make an everlasting covenant with Israel (Ezekiel 37:26).

8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Israel failed to keep the covenant made when God took them out of Egypt (Exodus 19:1-6 Deuteronomy 29:25).

8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

The fulfillment of the new covenant is future. It will be realized after "those days". "Those days" are described in Jeremiah 30:3 when Israel will possess all the promised land; "those days" refer to the time of Jacob's trouble, the great tribulation to come upon Israel, in Jeremiah 30:7.

Israel will be enabled by the spirit of God to keep the new covenant. The spirit in them, will cause them to keep his law (Ezekiel 36:27).

The new covenant is made only with the house of Israel, not the church, the body of Christ.

8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

It is only at the coming of Christ, and the establishment of his kingdom on earth, that Israel will receive pardon for their iniquities (Acts 3:19 Jeremiah 33:8).

The church, the body of Christ, has forgiveness of all sin now (Ephesians 1:7 Colossians 1:14).

We are in agreement with what is said for the most part and are presently presenting a study along similar lines on our blog post entitled, " The Church under the Abrahamic Covenant, Not the New Covenant".

Doug · Feb 8, 2020

Harvest 1874 said:
We are in agreement with what is said for the most part and are presently presenting a study along similar lines on our blog post entitled, " The Church under the Abrahamic Covenant, Not the New Covenant".

Are you saying that the body of Christ will partake in the new covenant?

Nancy · Feb 8, 2020

Stumpmaster said:
Hi Doug, You raise this matter which was a recent thread but can you please clarify three things:

Are you saying that the Hebrews to whom the Book of Hebrews was addressed where NOT in the Body of Christ along with the Gentiles because they were Jews with a deal designed to keep them separate from the Gentiles?

What was Paul on about in 1 Corinthians 11 when he addresses the congregation of both Jews and Gentiles regarding their responsibilities to observe the Lord's Supper worthily?
1Co 11:23-29
(23) For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
(24) And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
(25) After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do you, as oft as you drink it, in remembrance of me.
(26) For as often as you eat this bread, and drink this cup, you do show the Lord's death till he come.
(27) Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
(28) But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
(29) For he that eats and drinks unworthily, eats and drinks damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

Who do you think 2Co 3:6 is addressed to?
(6) Who also has made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life.

Good questions, I would love to know the answers here as well.

Doug · Feb 9, 2020

Nancy said:
Good questions, I would love to know the answers here as well.

See posts #8 #9 #10 for answers

Harvest 1874 · Feb 9, 2020

Doug said:
Are you saying that the body of Christ will partake in the new covenant?

As stated in the article title, the Church is NOT under the New Covenant, but rather the Old (original) Abrahamic Covenant.

The Church, that is those who make their calling and election sure who are joined to the body of Christ will make up the Great Mediator of the New Covenant, who will then mediate it with Israel and through them to the rest of the world.

They themselves do not partake of the New Covenant, but are administrators of that covenant. Besides the New Covenant is an "earthly" covenant while theirs is a "heavenly" or spiritual covenant.

Anyone who believes they are under the New Covenant presently is mistaken, because the New Covenant cannot go into operation until the "Testator" has died, which is composed of both the head, Christ Jesus our Lord and the body (the Church glorified) joined to him.

justbyfaith · Feb 9, 2020

Jesus hasn't died?

Now that is a whopper!

VictoryinJesus · Feb 9, 2020

Harvest 1874 said:
They themselves do not partake of the New Covenant,

1 Corinthians 10:17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

Hebrews 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

1 Peter 4:12-13 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: [13] But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

Harvest 1874 · Feb 9, 2020

justbyfaith said:
Jesus hasn't died?

Now that is a whopper!

The "Testator" has not died! The testator is comprised of both the head (our Lord) and his body (the Church). The Church (this side of the Vail) has not yet completed its course (its share in the Sin Offering), therefore the Testator is still alive.

Harvest 1874 · Feb 9, 2020

VictoryinJesus said:
1 Corinthians 10:17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

Hebrews 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

1 Peter 4:12-13 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: [13] But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

Being a partaker of the body of Christ, partaker of his sufferings does not imply partaking of the New Covenant.

VictoryinJesus · Feb 9, 2020

Harvest 1874 said:
Anyone who believes they are under the New Covenant presently is mistaken, because the New Covenant cannot go into operation until the "Testator" has died,

Dead in Christ. Alive unto God.

Hebrews 9:16-17 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. [17] For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

“For a testament is of force after men are dead otherwise it is of NO STRENGTH at all while the testator liveth.” How many times does He say “a seed”must die and go into the ground or it abides alone. But if it dies it brings forth fruit. Yet the word of God says “His seed” remains.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. [21] I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Is Christ dead in vain “without force” nor of “no strength”? Same as the New Testament it is of force and with strength that strength being God. what your saying (unless I’ve misunderstood) is there is no death of He who testified; no seed remains, and no strength nor glory that followed Him.
1 Peter 1:11-13 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. [12] Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. [13] Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

VictoryinJesus · Feb 9, 2020

Harvest 1874 said:
Being a partaker of the body of Christ, partaker of his sufferings does not imply partaking of the New Covenant.

One body.

One bread.

justbyfaith · Feb 9, 2020

Jesus Christ is the testator and has in fact died...

Those whom He has died for do not need to die also in order for the thing in question to be a reality.

Harvest 1874 · Feb 9, 2020

justbyfaith said:
Jesus Christ is the testator and has in fact died...

Those whom He has died for do not need to die also in order for the thing in question to be a reality.

It is evident then that you do not understand who precisely the Testator is. I would suggest a look at the following:
“The Mediator and the New Covenant” Part 6 The "Testator"

VictoryinJesus · Feb 9, 2020

justbyfaith said:
Jesus Christ is the testator and has in fact died...

Those whom He has died for do not need to die also in order for the thing in question to be a reality.

what of pick up your cross and follow and My sheep hear My voice and follow after Me. and he who saves his life will lose it and likewise he who loses his life for my sake will find Life?

Harvest 1874 · Feb 9, 2020

VictoryinJesus said:
Dead in Christ. Alive unto God.

Hebrews 9:16-17 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. [17] For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

“For a testament is of force after men are dead otherwise it is of NO STRENGTH at all while the testator liveth.” How many times does He say “a seed”must die and go into the ground or it abides alone. But if it dies it brings forth fruit. Yet the word of God says “His seed” remains.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. [21] I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Is Christ dead in vain “without force” nor of “no strength”? Same as the New Testament it is of force and with strength that strength being God. what your saying (unless I’ve misunderstood) is there is no death of He who testified; no seed remains, and no strength nor glory that followed Him.
1 Peter 1:11-13 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. [12] Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. [13] Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

As we stated before the Testator has not yet died, the head has, but part of the body remains alive this side of the Vail (the feet of him) therefore the Testator is not yet complete and still lives.

Have you as a prospective member of the body of Christ, of the Testator, made your calling and election sure? Have you proven yourself faithful until death (physical death), as represented in our passing beyond the second Vail?

Obviously not as you are still here conversing with us, therefore you have not yet completed your sacrifice in actual death. To be dead in Christ is to be dead to the world and to its ways, this takes place when we pass beyond the first Vail (the Vail of consecration), which represents the death of the will, but this does not imply the death of the Testator, that will only take place when the Church (all the faithful members of the body complete their sacrifice, their share in the sin offering) having made their calling and election sure having been proven faithful until death (Rev 2:10).

Harvest 1874 · Feb 9, 2020

VictoryinJesus said:
what of pick up your cross and follow and My sheep hear My voice and follow after Me. and he who saves his life will lose it and likewise he who loses his life for my sake will find Life?

To pick up your cross and follow in the Master’s footsteps implies a willingness to drink of the cup which he drank, the cup of his sufferings.

Jesus death (blood) constitutes the blood that seals or makes effective the New Covenant. Our taking of this cup and drinking of it (Matt 26:27) shows our participation. The consecrated lives (blood) accepted by our Lord are counted in as part of his own sacrifice (the sin offering) which seals the New Covenant.

He (of those who have previously consecrated themselves fully), and who then draws back from this participation in the sufferings of our Lord, who would seek to save the present life will lose it in second death, but he who willingly sacrifices the present life will gain life, life more abundantly than he could ever imagine.

VictoryinJesus · Feb 9, 2020

Harvest 1874 said:
As we stated before the Testator has not yet died, the head has, but part of the body remains alive this side of the Vail (the feet of him) therefore the Testator is not yet complete and still lives.

Have you as a prospective member of the body of Christ, of the Testator, made your calling and election sure? Have you proven yourself faithful until death (physical death), as represented in our passing beyond the second Vail?

Obviously not as you are still here conversing with us, therefore you have not yet completed your sacrifice in actual death. To be dead in Christ is to be dead to the world and to its ways, this takes place when we pass beyond the first Vail (the Vail of consecration), which represents the death of the will, but this does not imply the death of the Testator, that will only take place when the Church (all the faithful members of the body complete their sacrifice, their share in the sin offering) having made their calling and election sure having been proven faithful until death (Rev 2:10).

see your points but where I get confused is how saying: all those who have died in His name are not of the New Testament. Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

“I will put my law in their inward parts” in that which is inward and incorruptible as the word says; as God described: Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: [29] But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. —written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God.

do not understand pushing way out as if it is come instead of already in all those are born of God. Circumcision of the heart made without hands. Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Philippians 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 3:8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:

VictoryinJesus · Feb 9, 2020

Harvest 1874 said:
To pick up your cross and follow in the Master’s footsteps implies a willingness to drink of the cup which he drank, the cup of his sufferings.

Jesus death (blood) constitutes the blood that seals or makes effective the New Covenant. Our taking of this cup and drinking of it (Matt 26:27) shows our participation. The consecrated lives (blood) accepted by our Lord are counted in as part of his own sacrifice (the sin offering) which seals the New Covenant.

He (of those who have previously consecrated themselves fully), and who then draws back from this participation in the sufferings of our Lord, who would seek to save the present life will lose it in second death, but he who willingly sacrifices the present life will gain life, life more abundantly than he could ever imagine.

what you propose is the New Testament is without strength and force and that is not so.
Hebrews 9:16-17 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. [17] For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hebrews 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

Romans 4:19-21 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: [20] He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; [21] And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

2 Timothy 4:17-18 Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion. [18] And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

what you propose is the New Testament remains without strength...which saying the the New Testament is without power raises many questions and reg flags as in: Him who was dead, yet Behold I live.
Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

VictoryinJesus · Feb 9, 2020

Harvest 1874 said:
To pick up your cross and follow in the Master’s footsteps implies a willingness to drink of the cup which he drank, the cup of his sufferings.

Jesus death (blood) constitutes the blood that seals or makes effective the New Covenant. Our taking of this cup and drinking of it (Matt 26:27) shows our participation. The consecrated lives (blood) accepted by our Lord are counted in as part of his own sacrifice (the sin offering) which seals the New Covenant.

You just said they are not partakers

Harvest 1874 said:
They themselves do not partake of the New Covenant, but are administrators of that covenant. Besides the New Covenant is an "earthly" covenant while theirs is a "heavenly" or spiritual covenant.

Bull. The New Testament is being born of the Spirit and no longer under the bondage of flesh. His words are Spirit, they are Life. That is the heavenly ...a new creature. 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

1 Corinthians 15:46-48 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. [47] The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. [48] As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Tecarta Bible

HEBREWS 8 THE NEW COVENANT IS NOT FOR THE CHURCH

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