The Pillar and Ground of the Truth

RogerDC said:

How each believer build on that foundation will be judged, yes, but that foundation remains and that seal of adoption is never going away.

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We need to remember however that many false christs were prophesied to come. Building on those wouldn't work.

So yeah.. the will of the Father is known in His words and yet there has been no invitation to go to the church of St. Peter for salvation. Only Jesus.

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In this world, I never met the Father or the Son. The only way I came to know about Jesus was through the efforts of men who went before me: Men who preserved the words we have today in the Bible, who preserved the memory of Jesus and so on. Without those men, I can't say I would know about Jesus let alone know him.

What does Peter himself have to say?

1 Peter 2:1 2 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

Newborn babes desire the milk of the word? That seems different to me from some Protestant views which seem to promise salvation based on a few tenets (some of which strike me as doubtful). The newborn babes need help. We would also do well to adopt his advice about laying aside malice, guile, and so on. Those are surely not going to lead us to truth.

3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

Peter's readers did not meet Jesus in person, but he expects that the people who taught and preached to them introduced them to Jesus.

4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

Physical stones and sons are both "ben" in Hebrew, and both physical and spiritual houses are built of them. Most stones in a house are not laid directly on foundation stones. They are all dependent on them, but there are intervening layers of stones. Thus I would not, could not, claim to be a stone laid directly on top of Jesus. There are stones in between me and him. We also read that the Holy City has its twelve foundations.

Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

So I ask myself how did I discover Jesus? Who introduced me to him? It is through that person I form my connection. It seems to me that if the twelve Apostles built upon Jesus, we must build upon the foundations of the Apostles. I realize that Paul and others are called apostles in Acts and Paul calls himself an apostle; but for me, the foundations must be men who knew Jesus personally. To reject this would be to reject what Jesus himself ordained.

We are also warned in Revelation about men who call themselves apostles when they are not.

Revelation 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Without insisting that anyone join any particular church, it seems to me that anyone who wants to start his own church and who "kicks" at the foundations of the churches which can trace their origins back to the Apostles is most likely a deceiver who hopes to scatter the flock so he can take advantage of the confusion to increase the number of the people following him. I also expect such a person to warp some doctrines in order to appeal to more people. Such a person, eager to start his own church, has clearly rejected the church as the "pillar and ground of the truth" by rebelling against the church he was in; and he will invent ideas about how to derive the truth without that role for the church.

Notice how both Luther and Zwingli disagreed when they broke with Rome. When they met at Marburg, they could not agree about the Eucharist. This should tell us that their method at coming to the truth was flawed since it led to disagreements that could not be sorted out. I see unity being sacrificed but don't see any "truth" being established.

I also think the Catholic Church responded poorly to the rise of Protestantism by becoming more dogmatic in its views and more insistent on its dogmas being necessary beliefs when they had been more flexible in the past about some questions.

Enow said:

If they believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God had raised Him from the dead... they are saved.

So is the Catholic Church proving to be continuing in His words as His disciple when they refuse the believer to rest in Him that they are saved?

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You think you have already been saved?

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Enow said:

That is talking about abiding in Him as His disciple in being saved from what is coming on the earth.

Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Verse 14 is what will happen after the pre great tribulation rapture event, because in Revelation 14:1-8, verse 8 cites the calamity that will befall the world when one third of the earth be burned up as Jesus warned about this fire in Luke 12:40-49 for why His disciples are to be ready, and Peter warned them also to escape that coming fire on the earth in 2 Peter 3:3-15. If you note 2 Peter 3:15. it is the same warning given in context of the calamity that is coming on the earth.

We look back in the chapter of your reference to see this calamity also.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

There is a race to be run and that too is by faith in Jesus Christ as we look to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin to be received by Him as a vessel unto honor. If believers run that race to obtain eternal salvation, then they deny the testimony of the Holy Ghost in them that they are saved, and by doing so, Jesus will deny them entrance to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb in Heaven and be left behind.

We are saved. There is no way to be in that race to run it unless you are saved. Therefore the running of that race is not for salvation but to be saved from what is coming on the earth by abiding in Him as His disciple to be received by Him as a vessel unto honor in His House.

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I see nothing in those passages from the Bible talking about people already being saved. You are using the word in a way the Bible does not.

101G said:

GINOLJC, to all.
first thanks for the reply, second, "father", with the small case, have nothing to do with the "Father", with the capitall "F". Paul "begotten" many by the Gospel, that all that means. be a follower of him as he is of "Christ", and that was not the point. don't judge yourself by another standard, but let God judge you by his standard or line.

PICJAG.

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The whole passage continues to confound me. I don't think the original Greek had capital letters. I have a problem with "begotten" because I believe Jesus had the correct image and likeness of God, and Christians are begotten of God.

1John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Enow said:

I was explaining what enduring to the end portion of your reference was about in being saved from what is coming on the earth to escape.

If you examine 1 Corinthians 3:10-17, and note verse 15, you can see that those left behind for failing to be ready as found abiding in Him will face the fire coming on the earth as mentioned in verse 49 of Luke 12:40-49 and yet those left behind are still called His servants as they receive stripes per the measure of knowledge for their lack of being ready by in Luke 12:40-49 again.

Believers can go astray for why we are called to be ready by looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin aso we can be received as a vessel unto honor in His House.

The thing you have to discern is how can there be vessels unto dishonor in His House that did not depart from iniquity? 2 Timothy 2:19-21

That is because 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 declares that those who defile the temple of God, He will destroy; hence be left behind to incur a physical death at the coming fire on the earth, and if any one survives, the coming great tribulation as a result. See this warning in Revelation.

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

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You are avoiding my question and going off to explain something else. So far, you have produced nothing to show that you have been saved already.

101G said:

thanks for the reply, how do you think one is begotten/born of God? through the Spirit, the Gospel. listen, 1 Corinthians 4:15 "For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel". see IN CHRIST JESUS, who is Christ Jesus? answer, Mark 1:1 "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God"
Jesus Christ is ths Gospel, the testimony of God in flesh.

Just as with the Lord Jesus, "begotten", here is not natural or in the sense biological, ONLY HIS "FLESH", and not his Spirit. neither the term "son", it has nothing to do with biology. see it's spiritual... through the "GOSPEL". understand now?

PICJAG.

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Sorry. You may want to give up on trying to explain it to me since I still don't understand it; but thanks for trying. I can't see how Paul could be a spiritual father begetting spiritual children. I don't know what begetting someone through the Gospel means.

Enow said:

No, I did not, but I can understand how any one can lose track of the discussion when we are in other threads. Here is a repost of your quote.



I was commenting on your reference for what that was all about.

But if you want a direct answer to your question; yes, I have been saved when I had first believed in Jesus Christ.

Now if you then repeat that verse in your next reply, then you need to reread my earlier replies in #64 & #69 before you do.

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And you have produced nothing from the Bible to show that you have already been saved. I quoted Jesus who said that those who endure to the end "shall be saved." I cannot think of a passage that speaks of believers as already having been saved. Being saved lies in the future. Can you produce any Biblical evidence for saying you "have been saved" already?

Future tense here:

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.