HEBREWS 8 THE NEW COVENANT IS NOT FOR THE CHURCH

VictoryinJesus said:

see your points but where I get confused is how saying: all those who have died in His name are not of the New Testament. Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

“I will put my law in their inward parts” in that which is inward and incorruptible as the word says; as God described: Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: [29] But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. —written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God.

do not understand pushing way out as if it is come instead of already in all those are born of God. Circumcision of the heart made without hands. Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Philippians 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 3:8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:

Click to expand...

My best advice my sister is to follow along with our current study entitled, "The Church under the Abrahamic Covenant not the New Covenant", many of your questions may be answered there. You might likewise take a look at "The Mediator and the New Covenant" for further insights.

If you take the time to read through the study thoroughly (and not merely glance over it like some do simply to find something to argue about) you may actually gain the understanding you seek.

Harvest 1874 said:

the New Covenant cannot go into operation until the "Testator" has died,

Click to expand...

Colossians 2:11-12 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: [12] Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

VictoryinJesus said:

what you propose is the New Testament is without strength and force and that is not so.

Click to expand...

Personally I fail to see how you arrived at this conclusion. We merely stated that the New Covenant with Israel has not yet been made applicable because the Church (the Testator) is not yet complete.

Harvest 1874 said:

My best advice my sister is to follow along with our current study entitled, "The Church under the Abrahamic Covenant not the New Covenant", many of your questions may be answered there. You might likewise take a look at "The Mediator and the New Covenant" for further insights.

If you take the time to read through the study thoroughly (and not merely glance over it like some do simply to find something to argue about) you may actually gain the understanding you seek.

Click to expand...

was Isaac of the promise or not.
Galatians 4:28-31Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. [29] But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. [30] Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. [31] So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

So you say the body of Christ (the Church) is not of the New Covenant but the Abrahamic Covenant...of which then of the flesh or of Isaac born after the Spirit? Is the body of Christ(the Church) of the bondwoman or the Free?

Harvest 1874 said:

Personally I fail to see how you arrived at this conclusion. We merely stated that the New Covenant with Israel has not yet been made applicable because the Church (the Testator) is not yet complete.

Click to expand...

Colossians 2:8-12 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. [9] For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. [10] And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: [11] In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: [12] Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

“Ye are complete in him”...yea or no?

VictoryinJesus said:

You just said they are not partakers


Bull. The New Testament is being born of the Spirit and no longer under the bondage of flesh. His words are Spirit, they are Life. That is the heavenly ...a new creature. 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

1 Corinthians 15:46-48 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. [47] The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. [48] As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


Tecarta Bible

Click to expand...

They are not partakers (except only in so far as they share in the blood that seals the New Covenant) presently they are being prepared as ministers or administrators of that covenant (2 Cor 3:6).

Understand this a mediator is only necessary between two parties who are at odds or in disagreement with one another, viz. God and man. The Church is not in this position having been reconciled to God through Christ Jesus our Lord, therefore they don't require any mediation. That's the whole purpose of the New Covenant to mediate between those (Israel first and then the rest of the world) all who are still at odds with the LORD, to restore the atonement between them and God, something which has already taken place between the Church and the Lord , but not through a covenant, but by faith in the redeemer.

VictoryinJesus said:

was Isaac of the promise or not.
Galatians 4:28-31Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. [29] But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. [30] Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. [31] So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

So you say the body of Christ (the Church) is not of the New Covenant but the Abrahamic Covenant...of which then of the flesh or of Isaac born after the Spirit? Is the body of Christ(the Church) of the bondwoman or the Free?

Click to expand...

This is all covered in our blog post, "The Church under the Abrahamic Covenant not the New Covenant".

VictoryinJesus said:

Colossians 2:8-12 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. [9] For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. [10] And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: [11] In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: [12] Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

“Ye are complete in him”...yea or no?

Click to expand...

There is a difference between being complete in the Lord and the completion of the body of Christ, the Church.

Harvest 1874 said:

This is all covered in our blog post, "The Church under the Abrahamic Covenant not the New Covenant".

Click to expand...

why can’t you just answer of flesh or of Isaac the promise? Of the bond servant or the free woman?

did read it and it didn’t really answer the question. You said: “We, the members of his Body, will shortly follow him beyond the veil and share his glorious work of blessing the nations, beginning with Israel, under a New Covenant. We, as the adopted members of the Body of Christ, are directly the beneficiaries of the original Covenant (the Abrahamic Covenant), whose other features of blessing the world will all be worked out through us-- under the New Covenant arrangement with Israel.”

once again, Can see your point in Romans 11:30-31 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: [31] Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Yet still, so confused by pushing it out as “one day” when why not today? Romans 15:25-28 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints. [26] For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem. [27] It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things. [28] When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain.

1 Corinthians 9:11-12 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? [12] If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

Is it not through sowing “spiritual things” all the nations will be blessed? Why is that then encouraged to be yet future when the sowing of spiritual things already is?

Harvest 1874 said:

Personally I fail to see how you arrived at this conclusion. We merely stated that the New Covenant with Israel has not yet been made applicable because the Church (the Testator) is not yet complete.

Click to expand...

is the New Covenant without strength?

I'm not following this thread very well...I'm not really sure what it is exactly about.

VictoryinJesus said:

why can’t you just answer of flesh or of Isaac the promise? Of the bond servant or the free woman?

did read it and it didn’t really answer the question. You said: “We, the members of his Body, will shortly follow him beyond the veil and share his glorious work of blessing the nations, beginning with Israel, under a New Covenant. We, as the adopted members of the Body of Christ, are directly the beneficiaries of the original Covenant (the Abrahamic Covenant), whose other features of blessing the world will all be worked out through us-- under the New Covenant arrangement with Israel.”

once again, Can see your point in Romans 11:30-31 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: [31] Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Yet still, so confused by pushing it out as “one day” when why not today? Romans 15:25-28 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints. [26] For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem. [27] It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things. [28] When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain.

1 Corinthians 9:11-12 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? [12] If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

Is it not through sowing “spiritual things” all the nations will be blessed? Why is that then encouraged to be yet future when the sowing of spiritual things already is?

Click to expand...

You asked:

So you say the body of Christ (the Church) is not of the New Covenant but the Abrahamic Covenant...of which then of the flesh or of Isaac born after the Spirit? Is the body of Christ(the Church) of the bondwoman or the Free?

This was addressed in Part 2 of our study, the Church is of the "promise" (the Abrahamic Covenant), born after the Spirit, of the free woman Sarah representing the Sarah Covenant.

As for the rest of your questions and comments in this post I believe they are addressed in Part 4, which we have just posted.

VictoryinJesus said:

is the New Covenant without strength?

Click to expand...

It has all the strength necessary to accomplish its goal, that is when it is put into operation following the completion of the Church, the death of the Testator.

Harvest 1874 said:

You asked:

So you say the body of Christ (the Church) is not of the New Covenant but the Abrahamic Covenant...of which then of the flesh or of Isaac born after the Spirit? Is the body of Christ(the Church) of the bondwoman or the Free?

This was addressed in Part 2 of our study, the Church is of the "promise" (the Abrahamic Covenant), born after the Spirit, of the free woman Sarah representing the Sarah Covenant.

As for the rest of your questions and comments in this post I believe they are addressed in Part 4, which we have just posted.

Click to expand...

will read the other parts also then. Agree “born after the Spirit, of the free woman” yet not getting how this is not also the heavenly Covenant in as we have borne the earthly image we shall also bear the heavenly, but instead (if I’ve understood you) there is a separate Covenant than :born of God.

VictoryinJesus said:

will read the other parts also then. Agree “born after the Spirit, of the free woman” yet not getting how this is not also the heavenly Covenant in as we have borne the earthly image we shall also bear the heavenly, but instead (if I’ve understood you) there is a separate Covenant than :born of God.

Click to expand...

The New Covenant is an “EARTHLY covenant” pertaining to the “restitution of all things” the restoring or recovery of all that was lost in Adam.

And what was it that was lost in Adam?

Was it a spiritual reward, a promise of heavenly life?

No! No such promises were made.

Adam was created an earthly image of his heavenly creator (the image relating to the same character likeness of God, NOT the same physical form). The promise was that if Adam remained faithful (loyal) to his creator he would have continued access to the tree of life and therefore live forever and that he would have dominion over all the earth. This is what was lost and this is what is to be recovered.

Now the Abrahamic Covenant is a “HEAVENLY covenant”, that is that part of it that pertains to the promised seed. Remember there were two parts to God’s promise to Abraham.

“Blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven (the heavenly promise) and as the sand which is on the seashore (the earthly promise); and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies. In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.” (Gen 22:17, 18)

“Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made (viz. that all the nations and families of the earth should be blessed). He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one (Our Lord is the Seed, yet God foresaw and has foretold the larger seed spiritual, which will include the Body, the Church with the Head), “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.” (Gal 3:16)

“And if you are Christ’s (If you have been "baptized into Christ, put on Christ," become "members of his body."), then you are (Not by being, like your Lord, natural heirs of the Covenant blessings, but by your union with Christ) Abraham’s seed (the Spiritual seed of Abraham, the Body of Christ, typified by Isaac) and heirs according to the promise (The great oath-bound promise, the Sarah Covenant).” Gal 3:29

“Now we, brethren, as Isaac are the children (Sarah had but one child, Isaac, who typified The Christ, Head and Body--the heir of all) of the promise .” Gal 4:28

As Isaac was the heir of Abraham and child of promise, by Sarah, so we, like Isaac, are children of God, of the Sarah Covenant.

Doug said:

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Christ is sole mediator

Click to expand...

"The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a sharing together of the blood of the Christ? The loaf which we break, is it not a sharing together of the Body of, Christ? Because one loaf, one body, we, the many are, for we all of the one loaf partake." (1 Cor 10:16, 17)

The "bread" is composed of many grains of wheat, and the “wine” is the juice of many grapes, and so; also The Christ is composed of many members. This, the Apostle states is the “Hidden mystery”, "Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Col. 1:27), which has been hidden from the worldly wise and the worldly church.

“The Spirit of Christ in us leads us to self-sacrifice, self-denial, cross-bearing, etc.--"filling up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ." This is a mystery to the Jews, Gentiles and the nominal church (the professing church) who fell to rightly understand why it is that we should be called to fellowship in Christ's sufferings and as such they make light of our rejoicing that soon we shall be made sharers of Christ's glory in the First Resurrection. This mystery, hidden from past ages and dispensations, is now made known to the saints and none others; and if the saintliness be lost, the understanding of the mystery undoubtedly goes with it.

The Apostle explains that the mystery class (Jesus the Head, and the Church his Body) are the antitypical Isaac, the heirs of the Abrahamic Covenant--the offspring of the Sarah Covenant. (Gal. 3:16-29)

The Jews know this not, but are still trusting to their Law Covenant, made at Sinai. Likewise the majority of Christians know not of it, but still think of themselves as having once been under the Law Covenant as Jews, until, as they think, at our Lord's first advent, he sealed the New Covenant with Spiritual Israel. How often we sang, "Free from the Law, oh happy condition," and "Cursed by the Law and bruised by the fall, Christ hath redeemed us, once for all."

There is an admixture of both truth and error in these statements, and we were unable to differentiate until the "mystery" began to dissolve. The Truth on the subject is a "mystery" to the nominal Christian, even though it be plainly stated in the inspired Word, namely, that natural Israel and their Covenant have been cast off from Divine favor; that Christ Jesus won the prize of the Law Covenant and is the Head of the Church, The Christ, the Isaac Seed of the Abrahamic Covenant.

The members of Christ's "Body" are being called and chosen and found faithful during this Gospel Age and will be complete with its termination. The sacrifice of this antitypical Isaac (Head and Body) yields the blood of the New Covenant, which will shortly (when the last member of the body is joined to the head) seal or ratify it and make it operative to Israel as a New (Law) Covenant, as instead of their Old Law Covenant. It will have an antitypical Mediator (The Christ, Head and Body), instead of Moses, and everlasting blessings, instead of temporal ones, and living works of faith and obedience as instead of dead ones.”

Next they will be saying Jesus Christ's death and resurrection is not for the Church.

justbyfaith said:

Eph 3:6, That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

indicates that that gospel, or the new covenant, is for Gentile believers.

Click to expand...

Yep, great pick!