The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

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RogerDC

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20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
I have no idea what you’re talking about. The verse you quote - Eph 2:20 - refers to the Church. How it demonstrate that the Bible is the only word of God?
 

justbyfaith

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The Scriptures say the Church is “the pillar and foundation of the truth” (1Tim 3:15) and the Church is the “fullness” of Christ (Eph 1:22-23). The Scriptures don’t say the Scriptures are the “pillar and foundation of the truth”; nor do they say they are the “fullness” of Christ.

So wake up - YOUR BIBLE says the “truth” and the “fullness” of Christ are found in the CHURCH, NOT IN THE SCRIPTURES.

I have no idea what you’re talking about. The verse you quote - Eph 2:20 - refers to the Church. How it demonstrate that the Bible is the only word of God?

In the church, who has more authority:

Apostles, or those who do not necessarily have the Holy Ghost?

There has been testimony on this thread, even by someone who is Catholic, that there are many Catholic Priests who have gone apostate and who are more inclined to preach communism than the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Yet these are deemed to have authority over the holy scriptures in the church.

But do not the apostles who penned the holy scriptures have greater authority than these?
 

RogerDC

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1 Thes 4.....”the dead in Christ shall rise first....”
That verse refers to the resurrection. What happens to the saved (the “saints”) between the time they die and the time they are resurrected?
 

justbyfaith

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That verse refers to the resurrection. What happens to the saved (the “saints”) between the time they die and the time they are resurrected?
The verse indicates that the saints are dead in the grave until Jesus Christ returns.

And therefore to pray to them is to pray to the dead (necromancy).
 

RogerDC

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Depends on what type of believer. The nominal, shallow, or lukewarm believer can indeed fall away (Luke 8:13). However, the Christian with the fear of the LORD (Jeremiah 32:38-40, Psalms 19:9) who has a heart faith that is unto righteousness, cannot
Wrong again. Paul said that he himself could fall and not get to Heaven - "... lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1Cor 9:27).
And Hebrews 3:14 says, "For we have become partakers of Christ IF WE HOLD FAST the beginning of our assurance firm until the end" (Hebrews 3:14)

Furthermore, none of us can judge ourselves saved - "I do not even judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not therefore acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore do not pronounce judgement before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God." (1Cor 4:3-5)
a heart faith
What on earth is a “heart faith”?
The blood of Jesus does indeed sanctify
The blood of Jesus does indeed sanctify, but “sanctify” does not mean “you are certain to be saved”. One of the verses you quote - Hebrews 10:29 - makes this very clear: “How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved for the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant BY WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED, and outraged the Spirit of grace? … It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” (Hebrews 10:29-31). Clearly, this man was sanctified by the blood of Jesus by was not saved.
That makes no sense at all. What He is saying is that Christian believers who say to Him Lord, Lord, and do not do what He says are not true Christians at all...He literally has never known them.
Listen to what you’re saying - someone can become a Christian and yet Jesus literally doesn’t know who they are! Christ ”lives” in every Christian (Gal 2:20), so how on earth can Christ live in someone and yet not know them?

Furthermore, how did these Christians get the power to prophesy, cast out demons and perform miracles if Jesus never knew them?
You do understand that Jesus is God? There is only one mediator between God and man.
The Scripture say there is one mediator between God and man - “the MAN, Christ Jesus”. Which Scripture says there can be no mediator between mankind and the MAN, Christ Jesus.
You should take a wild look at some Protestant churches...you won't find the same apostasy there
Oh, you mean like the Protestant churches that condone homosexuality, have homosexual ministers and marry homosexuals? LOL!!! Not the mention the fact that all Protestant churches are based on a solid tradition of heresy.
living water
There are many millions of devout, faithful and uncorrupted Catholics who reflect the holiness of the one, true Church. They are the “living water” of Catholicism.
 

RogerDC

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That is why, when the church became absolutely corrupt as an organization
It is impossible for God’s Church to become “absolutely corrupt”. If that happened, the “gates of Hell” would have prevailed against her - Jesus promised that would never happen (Matt 16:19). Individual members of Church can become corrupt (even a Pope can become corrupt), but what the Church teaches as doctrinal truth can never be corrupted or contain errors.
God called out Luther to the truth, so that he could also lead others into the truth
Oh yeah, Luther was so devoted to truth that he changed the wording of Romans 3:28 to suit himself, didn’t accept the books of James and Revelation, and believed his could commit unlimited “deadly” sins and still be saved! Luther peddled “doctrines of demons” and was one of Satan’s blind guides. And you honor this corrupt, dishonest fool - hilarious!
 

RogerDC

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You failed.
It says one mediator....
You seem to have missed my point. The Church is the “fullness” of Christ Jesus (Eph 1:22), so if Christ Jesus a mediator is between God and man, then so is his Church. You’re saying the Church does not share Christ Jesus’ role as mediator, so you’re saying the Church does not have the “fullness” of Christ, which clearly contradicts Eph 1:22.
You picked the priest and not Jesus Christ.
Christ is a our high priest (Heb 5:10). Because the Church is the “fullness” of Christ, the Church has priests as well, who represent Christ on earth and have a share in Christ’s role and powers, such as mediator.
 

RogerDC

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Oh - and here is a SCRIPTURAL comparison chart to educate you about the facr that Mary is the Ark of the NEW Covenant (Jesus),
She is the NT Fulfillment of the OT Type that was the Ark . . .

OT - The Word was written by God on Tablets of Stone (Ex. 25:10) placed inside the Ark (Deut. 10:1)
NT - The Word of God became Flesh (John 1) conceived inside Mary (Luke 2:38) Mary carried the Word of God.

OT - "Who am I that the Ark of my Lord should come to me?" (2 Sam. 6:9)
NT - "Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43)

OT - The When the Ark carrying the Word of God returned “David was leaping and dancing before the Lord” (2 Sam. 6:14)
NT - When Mary came into Elizabeth's presence carrying the word of God, the baby “leaped for joy” in Elizabeth's womb (Luke 2:38)

OT - The Ark carrying the Word of God is brought to the house of Obed-Edom for 3 months, where it was a blessing. (2 Sam. 6:11)
NT - Mary (the new Ark) carrying the Word of God goes to Elizabeth's house for 3 months, where she is a blessing (Luke 1:56)

OT - The Ark is captured (1 Sam 4:11) and brought to a foreign land and later returns (1 Sam 6:13)
NT - Mary (the new Ark) is exiled to a foreign land (Egypt) and later returns (Matt. 2:14)

OT - The On the Day of the Dedication of the Temple which Solomon built, there were 120 priests present (2 Chron. 5:11). The Ark of the covenant was carried into the Temple (2 Chron. 5:7) and fire came down from Heaven to consume the burnt offering (2 Chron. 7:7).
NT - The On the Day of Pentecost, there were 120 disciples of Jesus present in the Upper Room (Acts 1:15). Mary, the Mother of Jesus and the Ark of the NEW Covenant was also present while the Holy Spirit came down as tongues of fire (Acts 2:3).
Fascinating. Thanks for that.
 

RogerDC

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No, the woman is Israel.
As I understand it, the “woman” in Rev 12 has a triple meaning - Israel, the Virgin Mary, or the Church - depending on which part is read.

The "twelve stars" are an obvious allusion to Israel.
The “child” the “woman” gives birth to is obviously Jesus, so the woman is obviously, Mary, his mother.
The “remnant of her seed” are those who “keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ” are Christians. So the “woman” is the Church.
 

RogerDC

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The woman of Revelation 12 is Israel, is what we are saying; who gave birth to the Jewish people; who in the last days will keep the commandments of the Lord and the testimony of the Lord (see Romans 11:26).
Rev 13 refers to “those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus” (Rev 12:17) as the “saints” who are allowed to be “conquered” by the dragon (13:7).
 

RogerDC

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Where in Revelation 12 does it say that the woman is in heaven?
The passage (Rev 12) begins with “And a great sign appeared IN HEAVEN, a woman clothed with the sun…”. Verse 3 says, “And another sign appeared IN HEAVEN, behold, a great red dragon”, who cast a third of the stars “DOWN TO THE EARTH”; later (v.9) this same dragon is expelled from “Heaven” and is “thrown DOWN TO THE EARTH”. So some the passage describes events in Heaven and other parts describe events on earth. If the “woman” is Israel, Israel is in Heaven in 12:1.

As I understand it, the “woman” can be Israel, the Virgin Mary, or the Church - depending on which part of the passage we’re talking about (so it’s little wonder BOL uses the term “polyvalent symbolism” to describe it).
 

RogerDC

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Very good post. But the RCC is afraid of nepotism, so they will not allow priests to marry...never.
Wrong yet again - there are married priests in the RCC. Why is it that almost all your beliefs concerning the RCC are wrong?
 

mjrhealth

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You seem to have missed my point. The Church is the “fullness” of Christ Jesus (Eph 1:22), so if Christ Jesus a mediator is between God and man, then so is his Church. You’re saying the Church does not share Christ Jesus’ role as mediator, so you’re saying the Church does not have the “fullness” of Christ, which clearly contradicts Eph 1:22.
Depends on whether we are talking about "mens" church or His, not one church on the world is His, His is a spiritual church not a physical building ,

Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Act 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
Act 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
 

Enow

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The Scriptures say the Church is “the pillar and foundation of the truth” (1Tim 3:15) and the Church is the “fullness” of Christ (Eph 1:22-23). The Scriptures don’t say the Scriptures are the “pillar and foundation of the truth”; nor do they say they are the “fullness” of Christ.

So wake up - YOUR BIBLE says the “truth” and the “fullness” of Christ are found in the CHURCH, NOT IN THE SCRIPTURES.

Ephesians 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

The church which is His body has many members for why the pronoun "they" can be also applied over every single believer.

1 Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many.

Once you define the Church which is the body of believers, then you can see how the plural pronoun as well as the singular pronoun can be applied.
 

Truther

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As I understand it, the “woman” in Rev 12 has a triple meaning - Israel, the Virgin Mary, or the Church - depending on which part is read.

The "twelve stars" are an obvious allusion to Israel.
The “child” the “woman” gives birth to is obviously Jesus, so the woman is obviously, Mary, his mother.
The “remnant of her seed” are those who “keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ” are Christians. So the “woman” is the Church.
Contextual fail.

It speak of a single woman as a single entity, not a shape shifter.
 

Truther

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You seem to have missed my point. The Church is the “fullness” of Christ Jesus (Eph 1:22), so if Christ Jesus a mediator is between God and man, then so is his Church. You’re saying the Church does not share Christ Jesus’ role as mediator, so you’re saying the Church does not have the “fullness” of Christ, which clearly contradicts Eph 1:22.Christ is a our high priest (Heb 5:10). Because the Church is the “fullness” of Christ, the Church has priests as well, who represent Christ on earth and have a share in Christ’s role and powers, such as mediator.

Let's look again....


1 Timothy 2:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


Repeat after me...."one mediator".

We are not the man Christ Jesus.


You think it says this....


1 Timothy 2:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one PRIESTHOOD OF mediatorS between God and LAYmen, the man Christ Jesus AND THE PRIESTS OF THE RCC;


...which is not Biblical.
 

Truther

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That verse refers to the resurrection. What happens to the saved (the “saints”) between the time they die and the time they are resurrected?

They, as spirits are in the heavenly Jerusalem city......


22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,




 

Truther

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I have no idea what you’re talking about. The verse you quote - Eph 2:20 - refers to the Church. How it demonstrate that the Bible is the only word of God?
The Apostles and Prophets spoke to us the word of God, not the RCC.