The false premise of Universalism.

justbyfaith · Feb 10, 2020

marks said:
Hi justbyfaith,

Let's take the first one . . .

Matthew 8
8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

In who are these who come from the east and west?

Much love!

The Gentiles who place their genuine faith in Jesus.

The children of the kingdom, here, in context, being the Jewish people.

Waiting on him · Feb 10, 2020

marks said:
Hi justbyfaith,

Let's take the first one . . .

Matthew 8
8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

In who are these who come from the east and west?

Much love!

Well I would say that it’s not the flash me that sits down in his holy city with father Abraham. All that gets checked at the gate in outer darkness.

Waiting on him · Feb 10, 2020

justbyfaith said:
The Gentiles who place their genuine faith in Jesus.

The children of the kingdom, here, in context, being the Jewish people.

So how many kingdoms are there?

amadeus · Feb 10, 2020

Episkopos said:
A baby Christian is still in the honeymoon phase and God goes easy on us for the first few years. But just like the tree that needed to be dunged in order to bear fruit...we don't have forever to get with the program.

This is the time God winks at when the baby is still on milk or had just recently been weaned from milk.

marks · Feb 10, 2020

amadeus said:
Maybe it was not intended as an attack on epi, but apparently appeared that way to him and to me as well. Be careful in how you choose your words before expressing them. We all have that problem at times for various reasons.

Episkopos said:
Of course not. You are overreacting here and overreaching with your display of outrage.

It was episkopos who escalated this, making it personal as often happens.

Let's not whitewash.

stunnedbygrace · Feb 10, 2020

marks said:
It was episkopos who escalated this, making it personal as often happens.

Let's not whitewash.

I thought she overreacted too. And I thought she could have been gentler in two of her posts.

But then, I know how cranky and short the flu can make me!

stunnedbygrace · Feb 10, 2020

marks said:
How is that?

Taking a break from speaking with you. I do not like how you spoke to epi and then how you spoke about him.

amadeus · Feb 10, 2020

marks said:
It was episkopos who escalated this, making it personal as often happens.

Let's not whitewash.

Whitewashing hopefully is not anyone's purpose. Rather let us try to be charitable. Saying one person or the other spoke too harshly or escalated it as if suddenly it were a bitter argument rather than a healthy discussion between brothers in Christ. We do not have to agree, but we do need to have charity/love. If we cannot, silence is always a choice. I know that probably too many times I haven't taken that route when I should have, but all of us could always use more of it... charity/love that is!

"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity [love], I am nothing." I Cor 13:2

stunnedbygrace · Feb 10, 2020

Helen said:
I was far from over-reacting or outraged in my post to you.
Just expressing what I believe. And how I read the scriptures.

You were expressing what you believe when you stated this?:

Helen said:
So you are trying to tell us that even though Moses blew it and was not allowed to cross over...Moses was cast out into outer darkness!!!!

And this?:

Helen said:
Why on earth do people read the OT and just presume that when God judges someone , say even Uzzah who touched the ark...are all "going to hell for eternity".... Shaking my head here in amazement.

That wasn't you stating what you believe in that post. You were stating what Epi believes, and you didn't even get what he believes right.

You did not speak well. And then you said you were just stating what you believe, when you weren't doing that.

stunnedbygrace · Feb 10, 2020

He said she overreacted. I agree. Its not disparaging to say you think someone overreacted. But in the end, what Epi thinks or I think or you think is not so important. What's important is between the Holy Spirit and Helen, because that's where the magic happens.

stunnedbygrace · Feb 10, 2020

marks said:
None of that was making personal disparaging comments about episkopos. Which is what he did with Helen. But his typical response - I've seen this over and over - is to turn it into some personal commentary.

Argument against the person.

Ad Hominem.

Instead of an actual reasoned response.

It's sad.

Maybe you don't see it as disparaging to state that someone believes Moses is in outer darkness when the person believes no such thing, but it is disparaging. And its not Helens usual way.

Helen · Feb 10, 2020

stunnedbygrace said:
Maybe you don't see it as disparaging to state that someone believes Moses is in outer darkness when the person believes no such thing, but it is disparaging.

I did not say that..I was using Moses as an example, obviously he did'nt get sent to outer darkness, just as I also used Uzzah as an example ..he who touched the ark and was zapped.
He doesn't go to hell, he just lost his life here.

The way Epi's post reads to me is = is saying that God throws out those who don't make the cut. Which is what his post stated... which I quoted.

He said " God cast out His people from natural Israel. And we are not more special than they are."

I agree, but I do not agree that they were all "cast out"...

We are not there yet...we have not seen the end yet , not seen the outcome of Gods throne of justice and mercy ..or how everything ends.

Sorry that you have been offended on Epi's behalf .

stunnedbygrace · Feb 10, 2020

When you said, "you are saying," who were you speaking to Helen?

stunnedbygrace · Feb 10, 2020

marks said:
You are overreacting here and overreaching with your display of outrage.

I'm not outraged.

Helen · Feb 10, 2020

Drawing a line here...

"He said, she said " is always fruitless.... ♥︎

Time to move on...back to topic

My last post on the subject is #103

==============

stunnedbygrace · Feb 10, 2020

marks said:
Do you see how these comments turn the conversation away from the topic, and onto the person?

That's why it's known as a logical fallacy.

Do you see the fallacy in someone saying to someone else : you are saying Moses is in outer darkness, when the person did not say that?

Do you see how that turned the conversation away from the topic and onto the person?

Waiting on him · Feb 10, 2020

Helen said:
Drawing a line here...

"He said, she said " is always fruitless.... ♥︎

Time to move on...back to topic

My last post on the subject is #103

==============

Yep, outer darkness.

stunnedbygrace · Feb 10, 2020

marks said:
Helen didn't make personal comments against episkopos. If something is incorrect, make the correction, but no need to make it personal, against the person. She's right, going on and on will not accomplish anything.

I did make the correction. Epi did not say what she said he did and so I said so...

stunnedbygrace · Feb 10, 2020

marks said:
If there is an error in a statement, offer a correction. But without making it personal. There is a distinction here.

Moving on.

I did offer a correction. If someone says another person said something but the other person did not say it and someone else makes a correction, it has to get at least a little bit personal, by name.

Moving on.

Helen · Feb 10, 2020

stunnedbygrace said:
I did offer a correction. If someone says another person said something but the other person did not say it and someone else makes a correction, it has to get at least a little bit personal, by name.

Moving on.

So we are going to continue playing the " He said she said" Game then.

Read the post again. #41 I think

Tell me where I said to Epi that " he had said" that Moses couldn't enter in.

You accuse me of misunderstanding ...

I did not say that..

I said -quote
<Those died in the wilderness , because they didn't qualify for the Promised Land. Remember ...Neither did Moses!! >

How do you make that into me saying that Epi said it???
He didn't mention Moses, I did!!

In what I said above , somehow saying that it was that Epi had said anything at all, about Moses?????

This whole thing is getting silly now. Like chasing fleas on a dog. Haha!!

The false premise of Universalism.

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