The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

BreadOfLife said:

WRONG.

Read ALL of the accounts of the women near the cross.
I'll even color-code them for you:

Matt. 27:56 says, "…among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee".

Mark 15:40 states, "There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome".

Finally, John 19:25 states, "But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene".

THREE Marys:
1) Mary, Mother of Jesus
2) Mary Magdalene
3) Mary (Mary's sister/adelphe), mother of James and Joseph (Joses), wife of Clopas

The Greek "Clopas" is rendered in Aramaic as "Alphaeus" - the Father of James the Younger (Mark 2:18).
We read about this other Mary in Mark 16:1 . . .
When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body.

YOUR turn . . .

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Try reading the 2 references together. Then try explaining why Mary the mother of James & Joses along with His sisters as being the mother of Jesus in Mark 6:3 is not the same mother of James and Joses as Jesus's mother at the foot of the cross?

Mark 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

Matthew 27:55 And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him:56 Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedees children.

Focus on those 2 scriptural references,brother. You can't say that James and Jonas was from another wife of Joseph. That little Catholic theory is disproven when that Mary is the mother of James and Joses.

Enow said:

Someone has to start somewhere. Does your signature show why you have no patience or not? It could very well be why they are baited to respond in like manner which Paul said to every one to watch out for les we bite and devour one another.

Try leaning on the Lord Jesus Christ this time in posting in patience, but be open to learning by the scripture with Him confirming the truth in His words to you.

Proverbs 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

Try it. See if you change the tone of your replies, they just might too.

But, yes... feel free to pass those references along to others for their edification if anything but to calm everybody down.

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When I see people like you condemning your fellow anti-Catholics for the same things you accuse ME of - I'll take you seriously . . .

Enow said:

Try reading the 2 references together. Then try explaining why Mary the mother of James & Joses along with His sisters as being the mother of Jesus in Mark 6:3 is not the same mother of James and Joses as Jesus's mother at the foot of the cross?
Mark 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
Matthew 27:55 And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him:56 Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedees children.
Focus on those 2 scriptural references,brother. You can't say that James and Jonas was from another wife of Joseph. That little Catholic theory is disproven when that Mary is the mother of James and Joses.

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Uhhh, no - don't focus on just TWO verses - focus on ALL of them in context.

The ONLY conclusion is that This other Mary (Mary's "adelphe" is the mother of James and Joseph in ALL those verses.
Focus also on the fact that Clopas and Alphaeus are the SAME person

BreadOfLife said:

Where do youo get the warped idea that the Mass is "more important" than the Eucharist??
The Mass is ALL about the Eucharist. It is the celebration of the Eucharist.

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No. I meant that the Mass was more important the communion that you do not see that emphasis to call communion that in the N.T..

As for Idolatry - 1 Cor. 6:9 states very explicitly that idolators will be eternally damned:
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor IDOLATORS nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men.

So, I ask you again:
Did 1500 years of ALL Christianity go to Hell for worshiping the Eucharist until Protestantism "saved" the Church?

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I think you are reading too fast to adequately see the truth about 2 Timothy 2:18-21 in how former believers are still saved but called to depart from iniquity to avoid being damned as that vessel unto dishonor in His House when the Bridegroom comes, but they are still in His House.

I could go on, but I think you are on a roll where you are not reading the posts but at a glance, that you are missing the answers.

BreadOfLife said:

When I see people like you condemning your fellow anti-Catholics for the same things you accuse ME of - I'll take you seriously . . .

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Take Paul seriously.

Condemning? More like gentle correction. But if that is how you see it. I understand since others are probably keeping you heated. I'll leave you alone since it seems every post of yours is heated and taking offense at everything ( which is why I posted those scriptures to you for your benefit ).

justbyfaith said:

No you didn't.

his mother's sister and Mary the wife of Clophas are two different people; otherwise you have two sisters having the same name.

Not really.

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WRONG.
It shows 2 "Adelphe" named Mary.

As I have already shown, Adelphe can be used for uterine sibling, half sibling, cousin, uncle, neighbor, friend, fellow believer, fellow countryman, etc. These 2 Marys are NOT uterine siblings.

I have presented a comprehensive Scriptural, historical and linguistic case - and all I've gotten from YOU is denial, rejection and opinion.
In a court of Law - I would have already won this case and YOURS would have been thrown out of court.

BreadOfLife said:

Anyway - I've already debunked the idea that Jesus had uterine siblings

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No, you haven't.

BreadOfLife said:

because the Bible NEVER states that MARY had other children.

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Actually it does. But you don't accept that scripture as being valid for some reason.

BreadOfLife said:

The word for "brother" - "Adephos(oi)" - can be used for a number of things:
Brother of same parents, half-brother (same father), relative, kinship, same tribe, fellow believer, fellow countryman, etc.
These are the statistics of the use of Adelphois(oi) in all of its variations in the New Testament:

Of the 244 instances are cases where the word “Adelphos” and all of its variations are used in the NT –
- 41 times (12%) are cases where "Adelphos" clearly or probably refers to a family sibling.
- 47 instances (14%) are cases where "Adelphos" may or may not refer to a family sibling.
- 256 instances (74%) are cases where "Adelphos" cannot or almost certainly does not refer to a family sibling.

Now - deal with that . . .

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You are assuming therefore that adelphos does not mean brother in the verses in question.

But I believe that you only see it that way because of your religious predisposition.

You have ruled it out because it goes against your Catholic beliefs.

You have not even considered it to be a possibility.

And indeed, Jesus' brothers were not fully His brothers; but were His half-brothers (because Joseph was their father, and God was His).

BreadOfLife said:

And I've already destroyed this weak argument.

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No, you haven't.

BreadOfLife said:

I never said that Protestants were spiritually-banbkrupt.
I said that YOU were Scripturally-bankrupt.

BIG difference . . .

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No, but it appears that you are saying it to me now...

Previously, you were talking to someone else.

Two fingers pointing at other people...six pointing back at you.

BreadOfLife said:

The ONLY conclusion is that This other Mary (Mary's "adelphe" is the mother of James and Joseph in ALL those verses.
Focus also on the fact that Clopas and Alphaeus are the SAME person

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1) It is not necessarily true that they are the same person.
2) The other Mary is not Mary's sister, but is Mary the mother of Jesus (even of James and Joses).

There are commas in John 19:25 where there would need to be semicolons if what you were saying is true.

Enow said:

No. I meant that the Mass was more important the communion that you do not see that emphasis to call communion that in the N.T..

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Not sure what you are trying to say here.
Please check your grammar . . .

Enow said:

I think you are reading too fast to adequately see the truth about 2 Timothy 2:18-21 in how former believers are still saved but called to depart from iniquity to avoid being damned as that vessel unto dishonor in His House when the Bridegroom comes, but they are still in His House.

I could go on, but I think you are on a roll where you are not reading the posts but at a glance, that you are missing the answers.

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Are YOU saying that you can be a Christian - AND an idolator and STILL be saved??
Is that what you're telling me??

BreadOfLife said:

WRONG.
It shows 2 "Adelphe" named Mary.

As I have already shown, Adelphe can be used for uterine sibling, half sibling, cousin, uncle, neighbor, friend, fellow believer, fellow countryman, etc. These 2 Marys are NOT uterine siblings.

I have presented a comprehensive Scriptural, historical and linguistic case - and all I've gotten from YOU is denial, rejection and opinion.
In a court of Law - I would have already won this case and YOURS would have been thrown out of court.

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Actually, you haven't made your case clear enough as far as I can tell...you have not convinced me of your pov.

If I were in the jury, there would not yet be any concise conclusion.

justbyfaith said:

Actually, you haven't made your case clear enough as far as I can tell...you have not convinced me of your pov.

If I were in the jury, there would not yet be any concise conclusion.

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And I never will because of your anti-Catholic bias.
Only the Holy Spirit can get through to you and smash your heretical and anti-Biblical beliefs.

justbyfaith said:

No, you haven't.
Actually it does. But you don't accept that scripture as being valid for some reason.
You are assuming therefore that adelphos does not mean brother in the verses in question.
But I believe that you only see it that way because of your religious predisposition.
You have ruled it out because it goes against your Catholic beliefs.
You have not even considered it to be a possibility.
No, you haven't.

No, but it appears that you are saying it to me now...
Previously, you were talking to someone else.
Two fingers pointing at other people...six pointing back at you.
1) It is not necessarily true that they are the same person.
2) The other Mary is not Mary's sister, but is Mary the mother of Jesus (even of James and Joses).

There are commas in John 19:25 where there would need to be semicolons if what you were saying is true.

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Here is an easy way to understand from the accounts of the women standing near the cross - that Mary (Jesus's Mother) is NOT the mother of James and Joses:
Mary, mother of James and Joses is mentioned in Matt. 27:56 and Mark 15:40 as standing near Mary, Mother of Jesus.
If Jesus' mother ALSO had sons named James and Joses - the Gospels wouldn't have differentiated the two by naming ONE of them as mother of James and Joses.

this isn't rocket science, son . . .

Enow said:

Take Paul seriously.
Condemning? More like gentle correction. But if that is how you see it. I understand since others are probably keeping you heated. I'll leave you alone since it seems every post of yours is heated and taking offense at everything ( which is why I posted those scriptures to you for your benefit ).

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No - you'll "leave me alone" because you've LOST this argument.

STUDY your Scripture, history and languages and get back to me . . .

BreadOfLife said:

Here is an easy way to understand from the accounts of the women standing near the cross - that Mary (Jesus's Mother) is NOT the mother of James and Joses:
Mary, mother of James and Joses is mentioned in Matt. 27:56 and Mark 15:40 as standing near Mary, Mother of Jesus.
If Jesus' mother ALSO had sons named James and Joses - the Gospels wouldn't have differentiated the two by naming ONE of them as mother of James and Joses.

this isn't rocket science, son . . .

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Still not seeing it.

Try to make it clearer.

Right now I am going to unplug my computer and take it to our motel room.

So forgive me if I don't reply for a while.

justbyfaith said:

Still not seeing it.
Try to make it clearer.
Right now I am going to unplug my computer and take it to our motel room.
So forgive me if I don't reply for a while.

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Okay.
It is YOUR position that Mary (Jesus' mother) is also the mother of James and Joses from the following verse:
Mark 6:3
Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him. 4 But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.

HOWEVER - in the following verses, we read that the mother of James and Joses is ANOTHER woman:

Matt. 27:56 says, "…among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee".

Mark 15:40 states, "There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome".

Jesus' mother Mary would NOT have been called "Mary, mother of James and Joses" as she was standing at the foot of the cross of Jesus.
When we read John's account of the story - he differentiates the two:
John 19:25 states, "But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene".

Ergo - the mother of James and Joses from Mark 6:3, Matt. 27:56 and Mark 15:40 are the SAME Mary - and it is NOT Mary, mother of Jesus.

BreadOfLife said:

You didn't answer my question, Einstein.

Where did Jesus get the water to turn it into wine?
Is it important where He got it?

Yeah - I didn't think so . . .

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From God.

God made the water.

Now, does the priest bless the wafer and wine as it makes it turn into the literal body and blood of Christ?

Is he like Jesus who turned the water into wine?

BreadOfLife said:

Ummmmm, already obliterated that impotent position.

Gee - I hope your kids paid closer attention to detail than YOU do . . .

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Did you now that Joseph slept with Mary all his life?

Did you know they kissed alot?

Truther said:

From God.
God made the water.
Now, does the priest bless the wafer and wine as it makes it turn into the literal body and blood of Christ?
Is he like Jesus who turned the water into wine?

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From God.
God made the wheat and the grapes.

How's that, Einstein?

Truther said:

Did you now that Joseph slept with Mary all his life?
Did you know they kissed alot?

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If you can show me a verse of Scripture or an extra-biblical or historical document that says this - I'll join YOUR warped cult today.

How's that, Einstein?

BreadOfLife said:

If you can show me a verse of Scripture or an extra-biblical or historical document that says this - I'll join YOUR warped cult today.

How's that, Einstein?

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.....and he knew her not until...

Knowing her is after kissing her.

Right?

Glad to have you as my new member.

We sure have a lot of work to do though...

BreadOfLife said:

From God.
God made the wheat and the grapes.

How's that, Einstein?

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God made that chalky wafer the priest feeds folks?

Has anyone done a chemical analysis on those wafers lately?

Strange stuff