Of course not. You are a Messianic who is ideologically against the truth of the gospel. You hold to an eternal carnal DNA over Christ.
All Israel will be saved
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Copperhead
Well-Known Member
Oh boy. That is rich, Episkopos.
What is the truth of the Gospel? What specifically is the Gospel? That is the base line. You seem to be confusing Ecclesiology, Israelology, Soteriology, etc all into a goulash of theology.
And I am a Messianic in the sense that I am a gentile who has placed my trust in the promised Messiah of Israel. Other than that, I have no Hebrew lineage so have no other connection with Israel. I know that I am one of the wild olive branches that have been grafted into the cultivated olive tree of Israel fed by the root, the faith of the Patriarchs. That doesn't make me a Jew, Israelite, etc (a natural branch) nor does it make any other gentile who is grafted in a Jew or Israelite (a natural branch).
Similar in nature that one many actually wear the uniform of the military, but all they have ever done is gone to the rifle range in boot camp. Well, that doesn't make them a veteran.
In Messiah, there is no distinction, neither Jew or Gentile, as that is in terms of being in the body of Messiah. But even Paul recognizes there is still the distinction when it comes to who is Israel and who is not. And He associates "true" Israel as the remnant of Israel who have come to faith in the Messiah. He never equates the gentile believers as being "true" Israel. One has to be initially of Israel to then become true Israel via faith in Messiah.
To supersede that with some idea that all who come to faith in Messiah are now the "true" Israel and there is no more literal, earthly Israel that has a unique destiny and purpose is essentially calling the Prophets, Paul, James, Peter, and most of all, God, liars and that they didn't have a clue what they were talking about.
And the Lord is pretty clear, that justification is tied pretty closely to believing what He said. That was the basis of His imputation of Righteousness on Abraham.
Genesis 15:6 (NKJV) And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
Yet, Yeshua seems to address this very same thing later....
Matthew 7:21-23 (NKJV) "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
And in Matthew 25, Yeshua bases the distinction of those who make it thru the tribulation period as being sheep (righteous) or goats (condemned) on how they treat His brethren, Israel, as He is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. This is an exposition on Joel 3, where the nations are gathered and separated on how they treat earthly Jacob/Israel.
So it is indeed treading on some very thin ice to say that the redeemed of the Body of Messiah has now replaced or superseded Israel. It has been the base theology that led from Augustine thru Martin Luther straight to the gas chambers in Auschwitz. Hitler, Goebbels, et al all quoted from Martin Luther or referred to him to support their destruction of the Jewish people. There is ample evidence of quotations from various Nazi leaders and writers where they refer to Luther as their source of hatred for the Jewish people and that they were actually doing the will of God by exterminating them.
Nope. I will not buy into supersessionism in any form or style. Nor will I buy into some version of Two House theology that seems to be popular nowadays. It was both houses that rejected Messiah and caused Him to return to His place, meaning that both houses were in the Land when He came the first time, and it will be both houses that will have to acknowledge that offense, turn to Him, and petition for His return, before He will return. Hosea 5:14-15 and Matthew 23:37-39.
Cliff
What is the truth of the Gospel? What specifically is the Gospel? That is the base line. You seem to be confusing Ecclesiology, Israelology, Soteriology, etc all into a goulash of theology.
And I am a Messianic in the sense that I am a gentile who has placed my trust in the promised Messiah of Israel. Other than that, I have no Hebrew lineage so have no other connection with Israel. I know that I am one of the wild olive branches that have been grafted into the cultivated olive tree of Israel fed by the root, the faith of the Patriarchs. That doesn't make me a Jew, Israelite, etc (a natural branch) nor does it make any other gentile who is grafted in a Jew or Israelite (a natural branch).
Similar in nature that one many actually wear the uniform of the military, but all they have ever done is gone to the rifle range in boot camp. Well, that doesn't make them a veteran.
In Messiah, there is no distinction, neither Jew or Gentile, as that is in terms of being in the body of Messiah. But even Paul recognizes there is still the distinction when it comes to who is Israel and who is not. And He associates "true" Israel as the remnant of Israel who have come to faith in the Messiah. He never equates the gentile believers as being "true" Israel. One has to be initially of Israel to then become true Israel via faith in Messiah.
To supersede that with some idea that all who come to faith in Messiah are now the "true" Israel and there is no more literal, earthly Israel that has a unique destiny and purpose is essentially calling the Prophets, Paul, James, Peter, and most of all, God, liars and that they didn't have a clue what they were talking about.
And the Lord is pretty clear, that justification is tied pretty closely to believing what He said. That was the basis of His imputation of Righteousness on Abraham.
Genesis 15:6 (NKJV) And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
Yet, Yeshua seems to address this very same thing later....
Matthew 7:21-23 (NKJV) "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
And in Matthew 25, Yeshua bases the distinction of those who make it thru the tribulation period as being sheep (righteous) or goats (condemned) on how they treat His brethren, Israel, as He is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. This is an exposition on Joel 3, where the nations are gathered and separated on how they treat earthly Jacob/Israel.
So it is indeed treading on some very thin ice to say that the redeemed of the Body of Messiah has now replaced or superseded Israel. It has been the base theology that led from Augustine thru Martin Luther straight to the gas chambers in Auschwitz. Hitler, Goebbels, et al all quoted from Martin Luther or referred to him to support their destruction of the Jewish people. There is ample evidence of quotations from various Nazi leaders and writers where they refer to Luther as their source of hatred for the Jewish people and that they were actually doing the will of God by exterminating them.
Nope. I will not buy into supersessionism in any form or style. Nor will I buy into some version of Two House theology that seems to be popular nowadays. It was both houses that rejected Messiah and caused Him to return to His place, meaning that both houses were in the Land when He came the first time, and it will be both houses that will have to acknowledge that offense, turn to Him, and petition for His return, before He will return. Hosea 5:14-15 and Matthew 23:37-39.
Cliff
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hermeneutics
Active Member
I'll go a little farther, the bad figs were Jews who inter married:
Ezr 9:1 Now when these things were done, the princes came to me, saying, The people of Israel, and the priests, and the Levites, have not separated themselves from the people of the lands, doing according to their abominations, even of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians, and the Amorites.
Ezr 9:2 For they have taken of their daughters for themselves, and for their sons: so that the holy seed have mingled themselves with the people of those lands: yea, the hand of the princes and rulers hath been chief in this trespass.
Hobie
Well-Known Member
The Bible clearly lays out who is grafted in...
Romans 11:11-24 (ESV)
Gentiles Grafted In
11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion[a] mean!
13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
Actually, I think maybe Romans 2:29 does equate those whose heart is right with God as being true Jews and that to be a Jew with a certain DNA to not necessarily mean you are a Jew...
No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by the Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people.
Copperhead
Well-Known Member
True to some extent, but many think wrongly that because a gentile believes and has that changed heart that it makes him/her a 'true' Jew. They are grafted in as a wild olive branch, but they are not a natural olive branch. Only a natural olive branch (a Jew) can be a 'true' Jew as a result of a changed heart. Both are redeemed in like manner. And in Messiah, there is neither Jew or Gentile. But in the physical realm, the distinctions remain. Just like in Messiah there is neither male or female, yet in the physical the distinctions remain.
Stan B
Well-Known Member
They show us that we should read contracts very carefully before signing!!
Stan B
Well-Known Member
I don't get the sense that he had to wait an additional 7 years for Rachel. I think he got both wives at about the same time, but Rachel was only released to Jacob after he agreed to work an additional 7 years in payment for her.
Understanding what you all are saying,but here's my point...All Israel are not just Jew's,and if they(Jew's)don't believe in Christ they WON'T be saved.
The Christian nations today are Israel,along with anyone who's in Christ.We belong to Abrahams seed,and that seed is Christ.
Galatians 3:16 "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, "And to seeds, as many; but as of one, "And to thy Seed," Which is Christ."
God did not give up Israel for the sake of the rest of the peoples and nations, but He allowed all others the same opportunity as Israel, to be saved and well blessed through Christ.
Genesis 35:11 "And God said unto him, "I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;
Why do you all ignore this verse I mean heck,Israel and Judah went to war with each other which should tell you they they were different.Christian nations are the most blessed nations in the world,ask yourself why.I'll tell you why ,because we are of God,period.That nation state over there are being run by the keintes,the sons of cain.
Who are they building that temple for,dang sure aint Christ,it's for their father the devil and you have a nerve to tell me they will be saved just because,please!!!
Israel as I said should had been called Judah,but where are these other nations,as that's only one nation.
The kings of England today are even crowned and anointed over the same pillar that Jacob anointed to God, to call an eternal remembrance to all those who sit on that throne, and the subjects that they rule over. [The people of republics are citizens, while people under a king or queen are subjects.] All royal thrones of the Christian nations are tied directly by blood to the throne of England, which is the direct linage to King David, Judah, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham. It is no accident that the Queen of England is Elizabeth II, for her lineage dictates it.
God's word, and his house still exist today, and the mere fact that a King or Queen sits on the throne is the reminder to all His children that He does keep his word, even though we allow ourselves to get lazy in his word, and run to Kenites for its interpretation, His word is truth, honest and fixed. When it seems that God's word is wrong, it is the person questioning the word that is in error. That is why we must use the right tools in getting the correct meaning for that Word.
The first duty of any King or Queen is to be the protector of the Faith, and that faith is God's Word. That is why we have the King James Bible today. He made the order for this translation, whereby each subject to his throne could have their own copy within their homes, that their lives could be guided by its words. From the year 1611 A.D. it has continued to be the guidepost in most Christian homes, and governments.
Genesis 35:12 "And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land."
These are the Christian nations of today, and it all started seven hundred years before Jesus birth, when they migrated over the Caucasus Mountains, and scattered throughout Europe, the Americas, and became know as Caucasians. This name records an event of the movement, but has since become the identifying feature of their race [Adamic].
The prophet Hosea foretold how these people could be identified in the final times in Hosea 1:10; "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, "Ye are not My People,` there it shall be said unto them, "Ye are the sons of the living GOD".
My friend, the Christian world has so followed after the Kenite lies, they denounce their ties to Israel, and give it over to the band of Orientals that have mixed and taken over bother Judah. They just can't see how God has blessed them, yet they continue to call themselves "Caucasians". Yet these nations continue to call themselves "Christians", for in doing so, they identify themselves as "the sons of the living God". Is is Jesus Christ that is the Living God, for when Jesus Christ came out of that tomb, and arose from the dead, and ascended into heaven, He became our living God.
The seed of Jacob has multiplied into kings and nations, and an area that covers half of the face of the earth. God's people still carry those blessings that He gave to Jacob, and it is no accident that America, Canada, England and all the other Christian nations have done well. God blesses His people, and still gives divine intervention on their behalf.
That nation state of Israel ain't mighty,who do they depend on?US,that's who...
The Christian nations today are Israel,along with anyone who's in Christ.We belong to Abrahams seed,and that seed is Christ.
Galatians 3:16 "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, "And to seeds, as many; but as of one, "And to thy Seed," Which is Christ."
God did not give up Israel for the sake of the rest of the peoples and nations, but He allowed all others the same opportunity as Israel, to be saved and well blessed through Christ.
Genesis 35:11 "And God said unto him, "I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;
Why do you all ignore this verse I mean heck,Israel and Judah went to war with each other which should tell you they they were different.Christian nations are the most blessed nations in the world,ask yourself why.I'll tell you why ,because we are of God,period.That nation state over there are being run by the keintes,the sons of cain.
Who are they building that temple for,dang sure aint Christ,it's for their father the devil and you have a nerve to tell me they will be saved just because,please!!!
Israel as I said should had been called Judah,but where are these other nations,as that's only one nation.
The kings of England today are even crowned and anointed over the same pillar that Jacob anointed to God, to call an eternal remembrance to all those who sit on that throne, and the subjects that they rule over. [The people of republics are citizens, while people under a king or queen are subjects.] All royal thrones of the Christian nations are tied directly by blood to the throne of England, which is the direct linage to King David, Judah, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham. It is no accident that the Queen of England is Elizabeth II, for her lineage dictates it.
God's word, and his house still exist today, and the mere fact that a King or Queen sits on the throne is the reminder to all His children that He does keep his word, even though we allow ourselves to get lazy in his word, and run to Kenites for its interpretation, His word is truth, honest and fixed. When it seems that God's word is wrong, it is the person questioning the word that is in error. That is why we must use the right tools in getting the correct meaning for that Word.
The first duty of any King or Queen is to be the protector of the Faith, and that faith is God's Word. That is why we have the King James Bible today. He made the order for this translation, whereby each subject to his throne could have their own copy within their homes, that their lives could be guided by its words. From the year 1611 A.D. it has continued to be the guidepost in most Christian homes, and governments.
Genesis 35:12 "And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land."
These are the Christian nations of today, and it all started seven hundred years before Jesus birth, when they migrated over the Caucasus Mountains, and scattered throughout Europe, the Americas, and became know as Caucasians. This name records an event of the movement, but has since become the identifying feature of their race [Adamic].
The prophet Hosea foretold how these people could be identified in the final times in Hosea 1:10; "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, "Ye are not My People,` there it shall be said unto them, "Ye are the sons of the living GOD".
My friend, the Christian world has so followed after the Kenite lies, they denounce their ties to Israel, and give it over to the band of Orientals that have mixed and taken over bother Judah. They just can't see how God has blessed them, yet they continue to call themselves "Caucasians". Yet these nations continue to call themselves "Christians", for in doing so, they identify themselves as "the sons of the living God". Is is Jesus Christ that is the Living God, for when Jesus Christ came out of that tomb, and arose from the dead, and ascended into heaven, He became our living God.
The seed of Jacob has multiplied into kings and nations, and an area that covers half of the face of the earth. God's people still carry those blessings that He gave to Jacob, and it is no accident that America, Canada, England and all the other Christian nations have done well. God blesses His people, and still gives divine intervention on their behalf.
That nation state of Israel ain't mighty,who do they depend on?US,that's who...
Now for all Israel shall be saved
Romans 11:25 "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in."
The blindness is the stupor that God sent upon those that cannot understand the plan of God, and see the prophetic signs around them. Remember Luke 21:24; "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." Christ is going to return to earth at the fullness of the Gentiles.
What happens then?
Romans 11:26 "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"
Romans 11:27 "For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."
This happens at the end of the Millennium age, not now, nor in the flesh. Why will this be? Because in the Millennium age all souls will be in their incorruptible bodies, and they will know Satan for what he is, as liar and deceiver, and they will have known Jesus Christ personally for that thousand year period.
Romans 11:28 "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes."
Concerning the gospel from the standpoint of Israel's enemies, they are in a blind stupor. As for the election, God protects them because the elect are the ones that bring forth the truth.
So why does God bring this blindness and stupor on many people? Any sin committed in ignorance, or blindness is not a sin before the Father. That is why we shall have the Millennium, and we will have the thousand years of teaching and discipline. It is written in Revelation 20:5; "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."
Dead here takes on a different name, it means they are spiritually dead, and their souls are still mortal [or liable to die] even though their body is incorruptible and will not age.
According to this all Israel will still see and recognize Christ at the end of the Millennium. However, there will be some other people that will not, and they will fall for Satan's deceptions when Satan is released for a season at the end of the Millennium age. In other words, Because of God's love for some people, He will blind them and put them into a stupor in this earth flesh age, to protect them from committing a sin that is unforgivable, during the time of the Antichrist. This is why you will never get them to see the truth no matter how hard you try, for it for their protection that this stupor comes.
This is also why we should be very patient while we are planting the seeds of the gospel. Some people are blind to the simplicity that Christ taught, as to the order of events, and the many other prophecies that are even now taking place daily before our eyes. It is not for us to judge these souls that God has placed in this stupor, for only God will do the judging, and that time of judgment comes only after the Millennium age.
When you lived in your soul body at the end of the first earth age, and you took a stand against Satan during the overthrow, what type of body were you in? Were you in a flesh body where you could only use about 7 to 9 percent of your intellect and mind? That is what is happening to us in these flesh bodies.
Let me then ask you this, if God judged the elect before the foundation of this flesh age, when all souls were in their more perfect state, how could God judge man in the flesh body with all of it sinful habits and limits of understanding? Friend, the Millennium age is the equalizer to those that have the stupor on them, for then they will have total recall, and there will be no limits of understanding that this flesh body has placed upon each of us. This is just a seed for thought.
There are no free rides in God's judgment, and what you get you deserve because God is always fair. Those of the election are no better then anyone else, it is merely that God has chosen them because of a stand that they took in that first earth age, judged them then, and placed them in His plan for this earth age.
romans11
Romans 11:25 "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in."
The blindness is the stupor that God sent upon those that cannot understand the plan of God, and see the prophetic signs around them. Remember Luke 21:24; "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." Christ is going to return to earth at the fullness of the Gentiles.
What happens then?
Romans 11:26 "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"
Romans 11:27 "For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."
This happens at the end of the Millennium age, not now, nor in the flesh. Why will this be? Because in the Millennium age all souls will be in their incorruptible bodies, and they will know Satan for what he is, as liar and deceiver, and they will have known Jesus Christ personally for that thousand year period.
Romans 11:28 "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes."
Concerning the gospel from the standpoint of Israel's enemies, they are in a blind stupor. As for the election, God protects them because the elect are the ones that bring forth the truth.
So why does God bring this blindness and stupor on many people? Any sin committed in ignorance, or blindness is not a sin before the Father. That is why we shall have the Millennium, and we will have the thousand years of teaching and discipline. It is written in Revelation 20:5; "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."
Dead here takes on a different name, it means they are spiritually dead, and their souls are still mortal [or liable to die] even though their body is incorruptible and will not age.
According to this all Israel will still see and recognize Christ at the end of the Millennium. However, there will be some other people that will not, and they will fall for Satan's deceptions when Satan is released for a season at the end of the Millennium age. In other words, Because of God's love for some people, He will blind them and put them into a stupor in this earth flesh age, to protect them from committing a sin that is unforgivable, during the time of the Antichrist. This is why you will never get them to see the truth no matter how hard you try, for it for their protection that this stupor comes.
This is also why we should be very patient while we are planting the seeds of the gospel. Some people are blind to the simplicity that Christ taught, as to the order of events, and the many other prophecies that are even now taking place daily before our eyes. It is not for us to judge these souls that God has placed in this stupor, for only God will do the judging, and that time of judgment comes only after the Millennium age.
When you lived in your soul body at the end of the first earth age, and you took a stand against Satan during the overthrow, what type of body were you in? Were you in a flesh body where you could only use about 7 to 9 percent of your intellect and mind? That is what is happening to us in these flesh bodies.
Let me then ask you this, if God judged the elect before the foundation of this flesh age, when all souls were in their more perfect state, how could God judge man in the flesh body with all of it sinful habits and limits of understanding? Friend, the Millennium age is the equalizer to those that have the stupor on them, for then they will have total recall, and there will be no limits of understanding that this flesh body has placed upon each of us. This is just a seed for thought.
There are no free rides in God's judgment, and what you get you deserve because God is always fair. Those of the election are no better then anyone else, it is merely that God has chosen them because of a stand that they took in that first earth age, judged them then, and placed them in His plan for this earth age.
romans11
Stan B
Well-Known Member
Stan B
Well-Known Member
Not sure what gawd you believe in, but you are calling the God of the Bible a liar, and His promise of grace, and that His Son's sacrifice on the cross was totally worthless!! That's what Muslims declare!!
Stan B
Well-Known Member
Nope!! God is the one who declares that!
Salvation is a gift from God for anyone who chooses to accept it.
Gifts do not come with a price tag attached.
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