Is there a 'world of spirits'?

Jodi said:

Hi Nancy,

You gave this scripture,

1 Peter 5:8 "Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil (DIABOLOS/FALSE ACCUSER) prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

I responded giving you many scriptures so that those scriptures could be applied to the above scripture and you could identify who the devil is who prowls around like a lion.

MAN is called a roaring lion in scripture, a lion knows only his carnal nature and follows that nature. You are given a list of the WORKS of the FLESH, you are told that man deceives out of the imagination of his own heart.

MAN is called a roaring lion, biblical FACT. Now can you produce one scripture where a fallen angel/celestial messenger or some wicked rebel spirit is called a lion?

MEN crucified Jesus, THEY SLANDERED Jesus. The Pharisees were like lions just waiting for Jesus to say something or do something so they could bring up accusations against him.

Give me one scripture that says wicked rebel spirits/fallen angels influence/possess people's minds so that they will incite false accusations against others. I suppose you might also like to tell me that they did it not for their own personal gain, not out of their own lustful desires to serve themselves, not out of the heart of their own imagination, but because they worship demons and just gladly want to obey them.

All you have Nancy are scriptures where you define the devil and satan according to a man made doctrine. You don't apply scripture to scripture.

I can address ALL of your scriptures that you say support you, support your doctrine. I will give you scriptures to apply to those scriptures.

I previously posted many many scriptures to show you what the clear given biblical truth is, as to what causes a man to sin. NONE of those passages have anything whatsoever to do with fallen "celestial" messengers. But you just want to write off all those passages and NOT apply them.

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Dominion over the earth was given to man and still remains man's. God Himself does not act in a way that violates this, Nor can Satan, the false gods, or demons. They must have the compliance or permission of men. That is the reason the Dark Side depends so much on deceiving men.

Hi Jay,

YOU:My understanding is "heaven" which God is going to clean out in our near future and imprison them, the wicked fallen heavenly hosts, for 1,000 years in the Bottomless pit. Isa 24:21-22.

ME: Look at the language used to describe people (kings, rulers) and places (cities) on earth, as well as false gods (heavenly hosts). Isaiah 24:21-22 is not speaking of wicked celestial messengers, they are not the hosts of the high places. There are no passages that speak of wicked celestial messengers being cast down from heaven.

Isaiah 2:10 Enter into a rock, and be hidden in dust, Because of the fear of Jehovah, And because of the honour of His excellency. 11 The haughty eyes of man have been humbled, And bowed down hath been the loftiness of men, And set on high hath Jehovah alone been in that day. 12 For a day is to Jehovah of Hosts, For every proud and high one, And for every lifted up and low one, 13 And for all cedars of Lebanon, The high and the exalted ones, And for all oaks of Bashan, 14 And for all the high mountains, And for all the exalted heights, 15 And for every high tower, And for every fenced wall, 16 And for all ships of Tarshish, And for all desirable pictures. 17 And bowed down hath been the haughtiness of man, And humbled the loftiness of men, And set on high hath Jehovah alone been in that day. 18 And the idols -- they completely pass away. 19 And men have entered into caverns of rocks, And into caves of dust, Because of the fear of Jehovah, And because of the honour of His excellency, In His rising to terrify the earth. 20 In that day doth man cast his idols of silver, And his idols of gold, That they have made for him to worship, To moles, and to bats, 21 To enter into cavities of the rocks, And into clefts of the high places, Because of the fear of Jehovah, And because of the honour of His excellency, In His rising to terrify the earth.

Isaiah 10:28 He hath come in against Aiath, He hath passed over into Migron, At Michmash he looketh after his vessels. 29 They have gone over the passage, Geba they have made a lodging place, Trembled hath Rama, Gibeah of Saul fled. 30 Cry aloud with thy voice, daughter of Gallim, Give attention, Laish! answer her, Anathoth. 31 Fled away hath Madmenah, The inhabitants of the high places have hardened themselves. 32 Yet to-day in Nob to remain, Wave its hand doth the mount of the daughter of Zion, The hill of Jerusalem. 33 Lo, the Lord, Jehovah of Hosts, Is lopping a branch with violence, And the high of stature are cut down, And the lofty are become low, 34 And He hath gone round the thickets of the forest with iron, And Lebanon by a mighty one falleth!

Isaiah 14:4 That thou hast taken up this simile Concerning the king of Babylon, and said, How hath the exactor ceased, 5 Ceased hath the golden one. Broken hath Jehovah the staff of the wicked, The sceptre of rulers. 6 He who is smiting peoples in wrath, A smiting without intermission, He who is ruling in anger nations, Pursuing without restraint! 7 At rest -- quiet hath been all the earth, They have broken forth into singing. 8 Even firs have rejoiced over thee, Cedars of Lebanon saying: Since thou hast lain down, The hewer cometh not up against us. 9 Sheol beneath hath been troubled at thee, To meet thy coming in, It is waking up for thee Rephaim, All chiefs ones of earth, It hath raised up from their thrones All kings of nations. 10 All of them answer and say unto thee, Even thou hast become weak like us! Unto us thou hast become like! 11 Brought down to Sheol hath been thine excellency, The noise of thy psaltery, Under thee spread out hath been the worm, Yea, covering thee is the worm. 12 How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn! Thou hast been cut down to earth, O weakener of nations. 13 And thou saidst in thy heart: the heavens I go up, Above stars of God I raise my throne, And I sit in the mount of meeting in the sides of the north. 14 I go up above the heights of a thick cloud, I am like to the Most High. 15 Only unto Sheol thou art brought down, Unto the sides of the pit. 16 Thy beholders look to thee, to thee they attend, Is this the man causing the earth to tremble, Shaking kingdoms? 17 He hath made the world as a wilderness, And his cities he hath broken down, Of his bound ones he opened not the house.

A HUMAN KING likened to a host of heaven (the planet Venus/also considered a false god) is cast DOWN.

Isaiah 24:18 And it hath come to pass, He who is fleeing from the noise of the fear doth fall into the snare, And he who is coming up from the midst of the snare, Is captured by the gin, For windows on high have been opened, And shaken are foundations of the land. 19 Utterly broken down hath been the land, Utterly broken hath been the land, Utterly moved hath been the land. 20 Stagger greatly doth the land as a drunkard, And it hath been moved as a lodge, And heavy on it hath been its transgression, And it hath fallen, and addeth not to rise. 21 And it hath come to pass, in that day, Jehovah layeth a charge on the host of the high place in the high place, And on the kings of the land on the land. 22 And they have been gathered -- A gathering of bound ones in a pit, And shut up they have been in a prison, And after a multitude of days are inspected.

2 Samuel 1: 17 And David lamented with this lamentation over Saul and over Jonathan his son: 18 (Also he bade them teach the children of Judah the use of the bow: behold, it is written in the book of Jasher.) 19 The beauty of Israel is slain upon thy high places: how are the mighty fallen!

2 Kings 23: 5 And he put down the idolatrous priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places round about Jerusalem; them also that burned incense unto Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of heaven.

Jeremiah 8: 2 And they shall spread them before the sun, and the moon, and all the host of heaven, whom they have loved, and whom they have served, and after whom they have walked, and whom they have sought, and whom they have worshipped: they shall not be gathered, nor be buried; they shall be for dung upon the face of the earth.

Jeremiah 19: 13 And the houses of Jerusalem, and the houses of the kings of Judah, shall be defiled as the place of Tophet, because of all the houses upon whose roofs they have burned incense unto all the host of heaven, and have poured out drink offerings unto other gods.

Jay, DEFINE a "heavenly host"? I don't see any scripture that speaks of wicked rebel celestial messengers being called heavenly hosts that are at some time cast down. I am assuming that is what you believe, the popular doctrine, which I don't find to be biblical at all.

We do see "heavenly hosts" representing false gods, the sun, moon, stars, planets, gods that are the work of man's imagination. We do see man exalting himself to that of a god, and God casting him down.

Giuliano said:

So people can go bad when they're in bodies; but spirits not in human bodies can't go bad?

PS I find the red letters mixed in with the black distracting. Your intention may be to emphasize certain words, but it confuses me.

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Hi Giuliano, sorry about the red letters, I'll just use bold.

My understanding is MAN was made of the dust of the earth (elements), the human spirit/MIND is within man, its made of the elements too, your mind is of your brain and when you die your brain is dead thus your mind/spirit is DEAD. Why God said dust YOU ARE and dust YOU shall return. PEOPLE RETURN to the dust. Your personality/character isn't some spirit that enters a body and leaves your body. Why king David who saw the future spoke of his death as sleep, and he died in hope of being resurrected from being dead, he did not die in hope that he was immortal having a spirit that would go to a place of reward. Psalm 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Psalms 115: 17 The dead praise not the LORD Solomon said Ecc 5:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing,

There is life and there is death, not there is life in a body and death is life without a body (I know of no scripture that supports this and many scriptures that speak against this popular Christian belief). The "immortal soul" with a reward or punishment upon death is of Plato, total Greek philosophy of whom the so called "early church fathers" who were PAGAN CONVERTS loved.

Hi Giuliana,
YOU: Dominion over the earth was given to man and still remains man's. God Himself does not act in a way that violates this, Nor can Satan, the false gods, or demons. They must have the compliance or permission of men. That is the reason the Dark Side depends so much on deceiving men.

ME:
Acts 17:26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,

"And he changeth the times and the seasons; He removeth
kings, and setteth up kings; he giveth wisdom unto the wise,
and knowledge to them that know understanding. He revealeth
the deep and secret things; he knoweth what is in the darkness,
and the light dwelleth with him." ( Dn 2: 20-22 )

17 This matter is by the decree of the
watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the
intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in
the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and
setteth up over it the basest of men."
( Dn 4: 13-17 abbreviated )

"25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling
shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee
to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of
heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know
that the Most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and
giveth it to whomsoever He will. 26 And whereas they
commanded to leave the stump of the tree roots; thy kingdom
shall be sure unto thee, after that thou shalt have known
that the heavens do rule." ( Dn 4: 25-26 )

"31 While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice
from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is
spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee. 32 And they shall
drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts
of the field; they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven
times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the Most High
ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever He
will." ( Dn 4: 31-32 )

WHO is this "Satan", please DEFINE? False gods are FAKE they don't exist, they are a work of man's imagination. I gave you direct scripture proving this, and you still believe they are real? Also I gave you many scriptures that tell you why man sins. I gave you direct scripture that says man deceives HIMSELF, but you think there is some invisible dark force of spirits that deceives man?

Jodi said:

Jay, DEFINE a "heavenly host"? I don't see any scripture that speaks of wicked rebel celestial messengers being called heavenly hosts that are at some time cast down. I am assuming that is what you believe, the popular doctrine, which I don't find to be biblical at all.

We do see "heavenly hosts" representing false gods, the sun, moon, stars, planets, gods that are the work of man's imagination. We do see man exalting himself to that of a god, and God casting him down.

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First off, I do not need you to "shout" at me by using the Bold Function or for you to highlight text in "red" for me to accept what you have written.

Now you are able to interpret scripture how you want to, and all that I did was provide an understanding that I find is the most acceptable to me to explain who the "hosts in high places" are.

Now, your explanation may be also valid, but the translation that you are using is not the usual expression used for the translation of the Hebrew text for these verses in Isaiah 24:21-22 that I have read.

However the Hebrew word which has H:6635 embedded within it is only found 38 times in the OT While H:6635 is found embedded in 25 different Hebrew words a total of 486 times.

In comparison of the Hebrew words used, the understanding of "wicked, fallen, not measuring up, heavenly hosts," is the understanding that we should have of the hosts spoken of in heaven who are brought to the earth to be imprisoned for many days before they will be punished.

If the heavenly hosts are to be punished, then they must have fallen away and not measured up with the other heavenly hosts.

This is just how I came to my understanding. If need be I am happy for you to disagree with me, but the timing of the judgement of the heavenly hosts and the kings of the earth as described in Isa 24:21-22 is in our near future so that Ep 6:12 is correct when it says: -


You can draw you own conclusions from the above.

Shalom

Jodi said:

Hi Giuliano, sorry about the red letters, I'll just use bold.

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Thanks for the reply in black.

My understanding is MAN was made of the dust of the earth (elements), the human spirit/MIND is within man, its made of the elements too, your mind is of your brain and when you die your brain is dead thus your mind/spirit is DEAD. Why God said dust YOU ARE and dust YOU shall return. PEOPLE RETURN to the dust. Your personality/character isn't some spirit that enters a body and leaves your body.

Click to expand...

You cannot recollect being a spirit outside of your body. I can. I am not always "in" my body -- I am sometimes "outside" of it.

Why king David who saw the future spoke of his death as sleep, and he died in hope of being resurrected from being dead, he did not die in hope that he was immortal having a spirit that would go to a place of reward. Psalm 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Psalms 115: 17 The dead praise not the LORD Solomon said Ecc 5:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing,

There is life and there is death, not there is life in a body and death is life without a body (I know of no scripture that supports this and many scriptures that speak against this popular Christian belief). The "immortal soul" with a reward or punishment upon death is of Plato, total Greek philosophy of whom the so called "early church fathers" who were PAGAN CONVERTS loved.

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So you do not believe spirits can exist independently of the material bodies. Do you think God also has a material body?

As for the dead not knowing anything? Jesus called some people "dead" when they had physical bodies that were moving around.

Matthew 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Spirit can "go to sleep" once it's inside a body. It forgets what it is, just as you have. If the body dies, the spirit is confused and may not exit it properly. It is "dead" and doesn't know anything. By the way, please don't think I am talking about an "immortal soul" since that phrase doesn't occur in the Bible. Soul and spirit are not the same thing. The soul can be destroyed in hell just as Jesus said. It can die -- but no where in the Bible is spirit called mortal.

The solution is to have the spirit awakened, brought back to full awareness of what it is. Death is defeated when spirit comes to know what it is and stops confusing itself with the physical body. Spirit is supposed to rule over the body; but with many people, the carnal body calls the shots and tells the spirit that spirit is dependent on matter. We could debate this back and forth -- but you would still not really know unless you see things for yourself. You can read the Bible too and still not really know -- and many people do. I'd say most people at this forum do not grasp what Jesus told Nicodemus. You seem to have rejected it -- you have if you believe spirit cannot exist independently of the physical body. People are taught that they are "born again" by believing certain words and by accepting Jesus as their savior -- but what did Jesus actually say about it?

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Later Jesus said that people born of the Spirit can move like the wind. I tell you this is right. I have moved outside of my body -- usually when it's sleeping. I know my body's asleep while I travel to other places. I asked myself too if I was only dreaming; and I was able to verify some things, able to find out there was no way I could have known certain things just by dreaming. I had gone to other places and actually seen them -- and found out later I saw things accurately by reading the news. So in that conversation with Nicodemus, Jesus continued:

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

The person born of the Spirit knows for sure that spirit exists independently of matter. He does not need that physical body in order to be alive.
Can you believe me? Perhaps not. That leaves me telling you what Jesus told Nicodemus:

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

It's fine if you don't believe me as a witness; but there are people in the Bible who moved around outside of their bodies. They were no longer tied to their bodies. They did not see spirit as being dependent on matter in order to exist. If you can't believe me, believe them; and if you can't completely believe them, at least have an open mind about it and hope to arrive at the truth by observing things for yourself -- as I claim to have. Jesus knows how to wake up the sleeping spirit that is confused and believes its existence depends on the physical body. That confusion is fixed by "dividing" them.

Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Some people enter into this rest when their physical bodies die; but it is also possible to come to know the truth before the death of the physical body. Then too there are still people whose spirits are so intertwined with the physical, they go to sleep when the body dies.

You can read the Bible and other books about such things; but you will know the truth only when you see things for yourself.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Sad to say, some spirits do not return to God. They know they don't need physical bodies to keep existing; but they also do not wish to return to God. Yes, I have seen some of them, I have talked to some of them. Again I tell you not to take my word for it -- don't believe something just because I say so -- but have an open mind. The belief that spirits cannot exist independently of physical bodies can create problems for people when their bodies die.

Jodi said:

Hi Giuliana,
YOU: Dominion over the earth was given to man and still remains man's. God Himself does not act in a way that violates this, Nor can Satan, the false gods, or demons. They must have the compliance or permission of men. That is the reason the Dark Side depends so much on deceiving men.

ME:
Acts 17:26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,

"And he changeth the times and the seasons; He removeth
kings, and setteth up kings; he giveth wisdom unto the wise,
and knowledge to them that know understanding. He revealeth
the deep and secret things; he knoweth what is in the darkness,
and the light dwelleth with him." ( Dn 2: 20-22 )

17 This matter is by the decree of the
watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the
intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in
the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and
setteth up over it the basest of men."
( Dn 4: 13-17 abbreviated )

"25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling
shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee
to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of
heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know
that the Most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and
giveth it to whomsoever He will. 26 And whereas they
commanded to leave the stump of the tree roots; thy kingdom
shall be sure unto thee, after that thou shalt have known
that the heavens do rule." ( Dn 4: 25-26 )

"31 While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice
from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is
spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee. 32 And they shall
drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts
of the field; they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven
times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the Most High
ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever He
will." ( Dn 4: 31-32 )

WHO is this "Satan", please DEFINE? False gods are FAKE they don't exist, they are a work of man's imagination. I gave you direct scripture proving this, and you still believe they are real? Also I gave you many scriptures that tell you why man sins. I gave you direct scripture that says man deceives HIMSELF, but you think there is some invisible dark force of spirits that deceives man?

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I can't see where you proved anything, sorry. I agree that man deceives himself. That's how the Dark Side gets its power. I would say Eve wanted to be deceived and that's how the serpent managed to deceive her. You cite Daniel as if that shows an ironclad law in operation -- that God is always micromanaging every detail about earthly kingdoms. God is in control at all times, yes; but that doesn't change the fact that He gave dominion over the earth to man and that man can make mistakes -- and God allows those mistakes since they are temporary.

Hosea 8:4 4 They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off.

I'm still waiting for an explanation of how the LORD "tried" to kill Moses and failed.

There are beings which can be called "gods." They are not really God, of course, but they can be called "gods" if you look at things in a particular way. Some are fallen too.

Psalm 97:7 Confounded be all they that serve graven images, that boast themselves of idols: worship him, all ye gods.

Psalm 97:9 For thou, Lord, art high above all the earth: thou art exalted far above all gods.

Psalm 135:5 For I know that the Lord is great, and that our Lord is above all gods.

Satan is not God -- but Paul wasn't not completely mad when he called him "god of this world."

2 Corinthian 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Every nation has its own particular god who was supposed to act as its Guardian Angel, as its connection with the One True God. Those gods fell and began to want men to worship them as God Himself. They ceased teaching the nations about the One True God. Some day, even those fallen gods will be restored, brought back into unity with the One True God.

Micah 4:5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever.

To ALL,

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil (diabolos/false accuser) shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil (diabolos/false accuser). 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; 15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Methodeia- deceit, craft, trickery. (1) Ephes 6:11 wile (1) Ephes 4:14 lie in wait

2 Corinthians 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

1 Corinthians 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

2 For, lo, the wicked bend their bow, they make ready their arrow upon the string, that they may privily shoot at the upright in heart.

Mark 4:19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

13 Ye have plowed wickedness, ye have reaped iniquity; ye have eaten the fruit of lies: because thou didst trust in thy way, in the multitude of thy mighty men.

12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.

Ephesians 6 is not about Christ's followers standing on an evil day wrestling against wicked rebel celestial spirits, it's about Christ's followers who were thrown in prison and needed to stand up against their day of persecution, where they would be put to death because of their faith by that of a wicked diabolos, a false accuser. Apply 2 Corinthians 10:3-5 to that of Ephesians 6, Paul's words with Paul's words. Don't apply a man made doctrine to a passage and then say your doctrine is true, as it fits with the passage. Apply scripture with scripture and then establish your doctrine through that truth. The DEVIL/DIABOLOS/false accuser in Revelation 2 were the ruling HUMAN powers putting Christ's followers in prison and putting them to death. The false accuser/devil was following the imagination of his own evil heart, he's not called a devil/false accuser/deceiver because he is possessed by some wicked celestial rebel spirit. How many scriptures do you need that tell you what causes men to sin? Not ONE of them say it is from being deceived or enticed through walking after the ideas of wicked rebel spirit entities.

Thanks for keeping the conversation going Giuliano

YOU:You cannot recollect being a spirit outside of your body. I can. I am not always "in" my body -- I am sometimes "outside" of it.

ME: No I cannot recollect being a spirit outside of my body. The mind is a powerful thing that is capable of deception, doesn't take much, Lead poisoning, LSD, Mushrooms, brain trauma or various infirmities, all can cause hallucinations, even can give people so called "out of body" experiences. Please tell me more about you not being "in" your body, as I am very curious. Please explain what you think the human spirit represents exactly?

This is simple and CLEAR,

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

YOU:So you do not believe spirits can exist independently of the material bodies. Do you think God also has a material body?

ME: The human spirit is material, we are created creatures made up of the elements of the earth, as God directly says, dust thou art and dust though shalt return, PERIOD! God is not made of such, but the human body with it's mind therein is far more complex then I believe we could ever imagine. I recently read an article about your DNA holding long past ancestral memories, if such is true, those who think they have conjured up past memories because their so called spirit was reincarnated in a new body, they are actually just receiving memories of their ancestors passed through their DNA. I believe people get very confused by the word "spirit" in the bible, and many follow pagan ideas and not what scripture applied to scripture directly tells us.

YOU: As for the dead not knowing anything? Jesus called some people "dead" when they had physical bodies that were moving around.

Matthew 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

ME: Jesus and Paul both spoke the same, we are seen as DEAD because of sin. To be carnally minded is death. If you follow Jesus you will be on a path to being spiritually minded which will result in life and peace, such is why Jesus said to follow him and just let the "dead" bury their dead.

Hi Giuliano,

YOU: Spirit can "go to sleep" once it's inside a body. It forgets what it is, just as you have. If the body dies, the spirit is confused and may not exit it properly. It is "dead" and doesn't know anything. By the way, please don't think I am talking about an "immortal soul" since that phrase doesn't occur in the Bible. Soul and spirit are not the same thing. The soul can be destroyed in hell just as Jesus said. It can die -- but no where in the Bible is spirit called mortal.

ME:
Each person is born having an individual spirit, it's known as the HUMAN MIND/BRAIN and the kind of LIFE a person lives dependent upon their spirit.

In the bible soul and spirit are often used in the same way, they are used interchangeably so you are in error in what you say about them not being the same thing.

example,

Proverbs 14:29 He that is slow to wrath is of great understanding: but he that is hasty of spirit exalteth folly.

Proverbs 16: 18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Proverbs 16:19 Better it is to be of an humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil with the proud.

Psalms 35:9 And my soul shall be joyful in the LORD: it shall rejoice in his salvation.

Psalms 35:13 But as for me, when they were sick, my clothing was sackcloth: I humbled my soul with fasting; and my prayer returned into mine own bosom.

Proverbs 13:4 The soul of the sluggard desireth, and hath nothing: but the soul of the diligent shall be made fat

The above are just a few examples where we see soul and spirit reflect feelings, state of mind, and behavior.

Now change the word soul or spirit above to the word life, you'll see it fits pretty well especially with the passages that have the word soul in it, as the word nephesh is translated to both soul and life throughout the OT.

nephesh -soul 475, life 117, person 29, mind 15, heart 15, creature 9, body 8, himself 8, yourselves 6,

The kind of life that you live is according to your feelings, thoughts, state of mind, and behavior, which those makeup your human spirit. Now in the grave where we go, returning to the dust you are told that there is NO KNOWLEDGE, you have no thoughts, no feelings, you cannot praise God, this is because your spirit is DEAD.

Deut 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

There is no scripture that says to die is to live without a body. To DIE is to NOT HAVE LIFE, to not be alive anymore.

The human spirit I understand to be none other than the individual mind that is affected by nature and nurture, it is something that is ignorant but then develops through experiences. Your spirit represents your growing mind, your personality, your developing character.

Without the fruits of God's Spirit influencing our spirit we are left only to our own devices, born of the flesh IS flesh, man can do nothing of himself. David said, "so foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee." Without the fruits of God's Spirit influencing us, we are nothing but like that of a beast, ignorant only knowing what we know naturally. As said in Peter, "But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves."

Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Just as God said in the beginning, "19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

We are no different from animals, as in the fact that on our own without God flesh is born of flesh, and we follow our own nature. God did however make us in His image, He did separate us from the animals in that we were given higher intelligence with the ability to come to know our Creator. and have a personal relationship with Him. Moreover it is God's plan to be "ALL IN ALL". Also our nature, with being given greater intelligence than all other living souls that God had made, we have an IMAGINATION and we seek knowledge and understanding to the world around us. By our nature we trust in that imagination, we trust in the ideas that our ignorant minds/spirits conjure up. The human spirit being ignorant with it's imagination does nothing but deceive itself and others, it is a diabolos/devil, a satan/adversary against us. It is like that of a serpent deaf and blind to God where poison is under it's tongue.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith* all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

1 Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which ARE ALIVE and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

There is to be ALIVE and there is to be DEAD, death is considered SLEEP BECAUSE we are promised to be made AWAKE/ALIVE AGAIN at Christ's RETURN.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Why can't you believe God's CLEAR SIMPLE WORDS????? YOU are made of the DUST, such WOULD ABSOLUTELY INCLUDE thus YOUR spirit, as that is apart of YOU. DUST YOU RETURN. Your spirit IS affected by elements of the earth, because itself exists of those elements. Hormones affect your spirit, food affects your spirit, lack of water affects your spirit, drugs affect your spirit, diseases affect your spirit, tumors affect your spirit, blunt trauma to your head affects your spirit.

Hi Guiliano,

YOU:Satan is not God -- but Paul wasn't not completely mad when he called him "god of this world."

ME: What scripture are you referring to and please define this "Satan/adversary" you speak of?

Paul tells us our god is our own belly, as men MIND earthly things, NOT mind some wicked rebel spirit entity.

Phil 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) 20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. 25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

Jude 1:But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. 4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

Psalms 140:1 Deliver me, O LORD, from the evil man: preserve me from the violent man; 2 Which imagine mischiefs in their heart; continually are they gathered together for war. 3 They have sharpened their tongues like a serpent; adders' poison is under their lips. Selah. 4 Keep me, O LORD, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from the violent man; who have purposed to overthrow my goings.

Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. 19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Matthew 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

IS it not seen as clear to you, comparing scripture with scripture? To be CARNALLY MINDED IS DEATH. One human brought death to all, for that human was carnally minded, like that of a serpent with the poison of deceit under the tongue. The generation of vipers Jesus was speaking of were those of a CARNAL MIND also. The men who persecuted Jesus were carnally minded, slander was under their tongue. The men who have persecuted Christians likewise were of the old serpent, CARNALLY MINDED with poison under their tongues as well, following after the imagination of their hearts.

Jesus didn't call Peter SAW-TAWN an ADVERSARY because he was possessed or being influenced by a wicked rebel spirit. Peter had in MIND THE THINGS OF MEN, he was speaking CARNALLY MINDED, like a deaf and blind serpent who knows not the thoughts of God.

Micah 7:17 They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the LORD our God, and shall fear because of thee.

God punished the CARNAL MIND, by giving it a weak mortal body that now had to serve itself in order to live. God brought the carnal mind into FEAR, fear necessary in order to survive, but also fear that causes man to serve the flesh in anyway he imagines, lying, stealing, killing. The carnal mind (serpent) was punished, on it's belly it would go and lick the dust. A serpent uses it's tongue to find food to serve it's belly. Paul says that our god is our belly where we MIND EARTHLY things. God brought forth the enmity to the carnal mind, where our carnal minds not only would continue to sin out of ignorance, out of lack of knowledge to the ways of God, out of lack of faith, but now sin because the carnal mind was placed in bondage to have to serve the weak mortal flesh in order to have life.

Paul speaks of this bondage in Romans 7.

When man is being a liar, a slanderer, a deceiver he is liked to a SERPENT, as a serpent is of a CARNAL MIND. The adversary, or the devil in the NT is always represented of a MAN OF CARNAL MIND, or a group of men that are a powerful force.

Kings that are a dragon operate according to their wicked spirits/those who are carnally minded serving their own desires following their OWN devices.

Jeremiah 51:34 Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon hath devoured me, he hath crushed me, he hath made me an empty vessel, he hath swallowed me up like a dragon, he hath filled his belly with my delicates, he hath cast me out.

Ezekiel 29:3 Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.

Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads...17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

The DRAGON, the OLD SERPENT are MEN, KINGS who are of a CARNAL MIND, they WALK AFTER the FLESH, their god is their belly, they MIND earthly things, as they mind their own desires from their OWN imaginations.

Jodi said:

Paul tells us our god is our own belly, as men MIND earthly things, NOT mind some wicked rebel spirit entity.

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This is rich. Obviously you have no clue about this subject. Or worse, you reject Bible truth when it does not suit your digestion.

Hi Jay,

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Rulers in scripture are HUMANS and humans are dark because they follow their own imaginations, and with that imagination they create spiritual wickedness inventing fake gods, fables to go along with them, foolish superstitions, and practice wicked rituals for their gods. These false gods are the “hosts of heaven” (the sun, moon, stars, planets) and they are worshipped in the high places, and in some instances like the king of Babylon or the prince of Tyrus, a man will declare himself to be a host of heaven.

Furthermore, we read of prophets who profaned themselves in God’s house, as they spoke lies from their own imaginations. These false dreams, visions, prophecies from these prophets were fed to rulers to strengthen their powers and further propagate the worship of false gods. These false gods were believed to have demons of whom they controlled that would be sent to either bless or curse humans, so the gods were worshipped and feared. But we are directly told by God that it is He alone who blesses and curses and it is only Him that man should fear (Isaiah 45:5-7). God directly says that these gods and thus their demons of which are portrayed in molten images are fake and useless.

2 Kings 17:16 And they left all the commandments of the LORD their God, and made them molten images, even two calves, and made a grove, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served Baal.

23:5 And he put down the idolatrous priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places round about Jerusalem; them also that burned incense unto Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of heaven.

Jeremiah 10: 4 Every man is brutish in his knowledge: every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them. 15 They are vanity, and the work of errors:

Isaiah 41: 22 “Tell us, you idols, what is going to happen. Tell us what the former things were, so that we may consider them and know their final outcome. Or declare to us the things to come, 23 tell us what the future holds, so we may know that you are gods. Do something, whether good or bad, so that we will be dismayed and filled with fear. 24 But you are less than nothing and your works are utterly worthless; whoever chooses you is detestable…. 28 I look but there is no one— no one among the gods to give counsel, no one to give answer when I ask them. 29 See, they are all false! Their deeds amount to nothing; their images are but wind and confusion.

1 Samuel 12: 21 Do not turn away after useless idols. They can do you no good, nor can they rescue you, because they are useless.

Jeremiah 23: 10 For the land is full of adulterers; for because of swearing the land mourneth; the pleasant places of the wilderness are dried up, and their course is evil, and their force is not right. 11 For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the LORD. 12 Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their visitation, saith the LORD. 13 And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err. 14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah…. 25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed. 26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart; 27 Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.

“High places” are referenced in the OT more than 90 times, here you see it is kings who dwell in high places,

Ezekiel 43:7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

Ezekiel 28:1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, 2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God: … 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Psalms 82:1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. 2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. 3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. 4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. 5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. 7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. 8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Isaiah 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! 5 The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers. 6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth….11 Brought down to Sheol hath been thine excellency, The noise of thy psaltery, Under thee spread out hath been the worm, Yea, covering thee is the worm. 12 How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn! Thou hast been cut down to earth, O weakener of nations. 13 And thou saidst in thy heart: the heavens I go up, Above stars of God I raise my throne, And I sit in the mount of meeting in the sides of the north. 14 I go up above the heights of a thick cloud, I am like to the Most High. 15 Only -- unto Sheol thou art brought down, Unto the sides of the pit. 16 Thy beholders look to thee, to thee they attend, Is this the man causing the earth to tremble, Shaking kingdoms?

Job 21:21 For what pleasure hath he in his house after him, when the number of his months is cut off in the midst? 22 Shall any teach God knowledge? seeing he judgeth those that are high. 23 One dieth in his full strength, being wholly at ease and quiet. 24 His breasts are full of milk, and his bones are moistened with marrow. 25 And another dieth in the bitterness of his soul, and never eateth with pleasure. 26 They shall lie down alike in the dust, and the worms shall cover them. 27 Behold, I know your thoughts, and the devices which ye wrongfully imagine against me. 28 For ye say, Where is the house of the prince? and where are the dwelling places of the wicked? 29 Have ye not asked them that go by the way? and do ye not know their tokens, 30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath. 31 Who shall declare his way to his face? and who shall repay him what he hath done? 32 Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.

Proverbs 16: 18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Spiritual wickedness the works of the flesh,

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like:

2 Corinthians 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds. 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Jeremiah 18:12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.

Jay, we have a ruler, a king, he is an oppressor, he is wicked, and he is said to fall from heaven and is cut down to earth. He exalted himself to be like the Most High. He wasn't literally the son of the dawn, he wasn't literally in heaven.

In Ephesians 6 Christ's followers were going to wrestle with the current rulers, men whose spirits were wicked who followed spiritual wickedness idolatry and witchcraft. It’s no secret that many Roman emperors who persecuted Christians believed themselves to be a god. Heavenly places, high places are described in the bible where men built places of false worship high towers, or the mountains where kings built places of worship and erected their false images.

ME: Paul tells us our god is our own belly, as men MIND earthly things, NOT mind some wicked rebel spirit entity.

Enoch111 said:

This is rich. Obviously you have no clue about this subject. Or worse, you reject Bible truth when it does not suit your digestion.

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Hi Enoch111,

Interesting how you quote me and say I have no clue but yet what I said was indeed Paul's words, and what I said was not Paul's words, can't actually be found in any scripture.

Now Paul does say "whose God is their belly, ..who mind earthly things"
Show me one scripture where Paul says that man minds wicked rebel spirit entities?

Go READ Romans 7, Paul goes into length as to why he calls himself a "wretched man", and it has nothing to do with there being wicked rebel spirit entities roaming about trying to deceive men where he himself must fight against.

Paul's WORDS, 17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. 18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like:

Paul tells us that the carnal mind is enmity against God, that being carnally minded is DEATH, it is NOT that walking after wicked rebel spirits is death. The carnal mind has invented false gods with their false demons, and all manner of spiritual wickedness, idolatry and witchcraft. The carnal mind does it's bidding to fake gods in high places, the carnal mind of some even declare themselves to be a heavenly host in the heavenly places. No wonder MEN are likened to serpents, adders, vipers, dragons, as poison/deceit is under their tongue, for man is deaf and blind to the knowledge of God like that of a serpent, man only knows what he knows naturally like that of an ignorant beast, where by such man corrupts himself (Jude 1:10).

It is just as Jeremiah says multiple times, 12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.

It is just as God said in the beginning, 5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

I have given many many scriptures that tell us exactly where sin comes from, man's own imagination from his carnal mind. I don't reject bible truth, I use scripture to understand scripture. I don't take a doctrine of men, made by pagan converts who loved Greek philosophy, or doctrines made by the imagination of self righteous Jews and then give scriptural support to show how those doctrines are true.

Jodi said:

Hi Jay,

YOU:My understanding is "heaven" which God is going to clean out in our near future and imprison them, the wicked fallen heavenly hosts, for 1,000 years in the Bottomless pit. Isa 24:21-22.

ME: Look at the language used to describe people (kings, rulers) and places (cities) on earth, as well as false gods (heavenly hosts). Isaiah 24:21-22 is not speaking of wicked celestial messengers, they are not the hosts of the high places. There are no passages that speak of wicked celestial messengers being cast down from heaven.

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Jodi, you are welcome to speak about what you believe is true, but that does not make it true.

A question for you to ponder that comes from this verse: -


Who or what are the "four winds of heaven?"

When you know the right answer to this question, then we may be able to discuss it in depth, God willing.

Shalom

Jodi said:

Show me one scripture where Paul says that man minds wicked rebel spirit entities?

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EPHESIANS 6: PAUL ADDRESSES CHRISTIANS
10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. [THE DEVIL IS A WICKED REBEL SPIRIT]
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against [1] principalities, against [2] powers, against [3] the rulers of the darkness of this world, against [4] spiritual wickedness in high places. [THESE ARE HIERARCHIES OF WICKED REBEL SPIRITS]
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. [THESE ARE DEMONIC ATTACKS ON CHRISTIANS BY WICKED EVIL SPIRITS]
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the Gospel,
20 For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

Hi Enoch111,

Scripture repeatedly tells you throughout what causes man to sin and it's not wicked rebel spirit entities, it's man owns imagination, his carnal mind.

Scripture also tells you that it is God ALONE, there is no other that brings forth blessing and cursing. It is He who wounds and He who HEALS. You can read all the curses God can bestow in Deuteronomy 28. God makes the deaf, blind, those with palsy, epilepsy, leprosy, etc. You are even told that He makes the mad/lunatic.

Scripture also tells us that the gods of the pagans are fake, likewise their demons/unclean spirits were also fake. People believe that the demons/daimons of the gods could bring blessings or cursings such as all manner of disease and infirmities. But the TRUTH is that it is God alone that wounds and heals, God alone who man should fear, as He alone has the supernatural power to cause madness, blindness, leprosy, diseases of the bones..etc.. Likewise it is God that brings forth pestilence, floods, fires, drought, famine..etc. Those who carry out his will of blessing and cursing are His celestial messengers who OBEY him.

God did indeed cast a bad spirit upon Saul, and through God David healed him through playing the harp. Likewise as God had said He wounds and He HEALS, Jesus was SENT to HEAL, and he did just that. The daimons are not to be defined by pagan beliefs, the daimons are not to be defined by Christian doctrine itself that drips in paganism, the daimons are the bad spirits/unclean spirits that God said He would in fact curse people with, and by His will choose to turn and heal them also.

Isaiah 45: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Deut 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

Deut 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;

Exodus 4: The LORD said to him, "Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes him mute or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the LORD ?

Matthew 9:33 After the demon was cast out, the mute man spoke; and the crowds were amazed, and were saying, "Nothing like this has ever been seen in Israel." 34 But the Pharisees were saying, "He casts out the demons by the ruler of the demons."

Pharisees, hypocrites, vipers, self righteous Jews who denied the Christ and also denied God's clear given word, of who it is that curses, who it is alone that wounds and heals.

Matthew 12: 23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? 24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

2 Kings 1:2 And Ahaziah fell down through a lattice in his upper chamber that was in Samaria, and was sick: and he sent messengers, and said unto them, Go, enquire of Baalzebub the god of Ekron whether I shall recover of this disease. 3 But the angel of the LORD said to Elijah the Tishbite, Arise, go up to meet the messengers of the king of Samaria, and say unto them, Is it not because there is not a God in Israel, that ye go to enquire of Baalzebub the god of Ekron? 4 Now therefore thus saith the LORD, Thou shalt not come down from that bed on which thou art gone up, but shalt surely die. And Elijah departed. …..16 And he said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Forasmuch as thou hast sent messengers to enquire of Baalzebub the god of Ekron, is it not because there is no God in Israel to enquire of his word? therefore thou shalt not come down off that bed on which thou art gone up, but shalt surely die. 17 So he died according to the word of the LORD which Elijah had spoken. And Jehoram reigned in his stead in the second year of Jehoram the son of Jehoshaphat king of Judah; because he had no son.

1 Chronicles 16: 26 For all the gods of the people are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.

Jeremiah 10:14 Every man is brutish in his knowledge: every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them. 15 They are vanity, and the work of errors:

There is no Beelzebub and there thus are none of his demons either, there are no fallen angels who are demonic spirits that cause cursing or possess you, such is also nothing more than a work of error from man's own imagination.

Jay Ross said:

Jodi, you are welcome to speak about what you believe is true, but that does not make it true.

A question for you to ponder that comes from this verse: -

Daniel 7:2: - 2 Daniel spoke, saying, "I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the Great Sea.​

Who or what are the "four winds of heaven?"

When you know the right answer to this question, then we may be able to discuss it in depth, God willing.

Shalom

Click to expand...

Thank you for the welcome to speak, and yes that which I speak is what I believe is true, and just like anyone else each person's post can be decided by other people if they believe what the other person says is true or not. I do consider my mind to be open, through much study over the past 16 years I have changed by beliefs. I have read through doctrines of most all Christian faiths and compared how their scriptural support adds up or most certainly does not. When someone gives an understanding to a passage and it aligns with the truth from all other passages, I am listening. Likewise, if scriptures are given that I have not looked readily at and reveal a new truth, I am listening.

When I say something and give direct scripture to back it up people can certainly respond by giving a general statement that what I have said is not true, however it's much more effective to respond using the scriptures I used and show how what I said about them was specifically in error.

the "four winds of heaven" represent from every direction, from all over, north, south, east, and west.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Jodi said:

Thank you for the welcome to speak, and yes that which I speak is what I believe is true, and just like anyone else each person's post can be decided by other people if they believe what the other person says is true or not. I do consider my mind to be open, through much study over the past 16 years I have changed by beliefs. I have read through doctrines of most all Christian faiths and compared how their scriptural support adds up or most certainly does not. When someone gives an understanding to a passage and it aligns with the truth from all other passages, I am listening. Likewise, if scriptures are given that I have not looked readily at and reveal a new truth, I am listening.

When I say something and give direct scripture to back it up people can certainly respond by giving a general statement that what I have said is not true, however it's much more effective to respond using the scriptures I used and show how what I said about them was specifically in error.

the "four winds of heaven" represent from every direction, from all over, north, south, east, and west.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Click to expand...

Thanks for confirming what I already suspected concerning your insights.

Shalom

Hi Enoch111,

ME:EPHESIANS 6: PAUL ADDRESSES CHRISTIANS
10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. [THE DEVIL IS DIABOLOS a FALSE ACCUSER, most certainly Christians were persecuted and put to death by MEN who out of their own wicked imaginations were slanderers]

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against [1] principalities [courts of law], against [2] powers, against [3] the rulers of the darkness of this world, against [4] spiritual wickedness in high places. [THE RULERS of this world are wicked men and they are filled with spiritual wickedness of witchcraft, false gods of which are heavenly hosts -sun, moon, stars, planets that men create into molten images that are perched in high places]
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day [day of your persecution], and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. [ those suffering persecution would be mocked, slandered, beaten and if they stood in the truth and in their faith they would be put to death but they were promised to receive the crown of life]
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the Gospel,
20 For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

Enoch111, it is NOT some wicked rebel spirit that is being spoken of below who puts Christ's followers into prison where they suffer tribulation and are put to death by a wicked rebel spirit. That is absurd. Men persecute other men will all manner of fiery darts, men slander others out of their own evil thoughts from their heart, and thus are rightly called a diabolos.

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil (DIABOLOS, slanderer) shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Also, in the below passage Jesus calls Peter a satan/adversary, not because he is possessed by or deceived by a wicked rebel spirit, but because he in his OWN MIND has in his mind the things of men.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Jesus says,

34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? 18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Pharisee's washed alternating hands to carry off demons. But there are no demons that cause you to sin, Jesus makes it very clear, and he tells you exactly what defiles a man, evil thoughts proceed out of a man's own heart.