essentially the bible tells us that we were created to love and worship god but that when he made us he gave us free will (the ability to choose for ourselves whether to do so or not) to distinguish us from the angels who do not have such a choice so that we will love and worship him by choice. multiple questions:first - if god gave us the choice why does choosing not to live according to the bible come with such a punishment as eternal suffering in hell followed by being eliminated from existence entirely with the second death in the lake of fire?second - if it is a choice we are to make ourselves then doesnt miracles and other spiritual manifestations of god infringe upon our free will? third - if the angels were not created with free will how was lucifer able to go against god and cause the uprising meant to challenge his authority?
Free Will
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QUOTE (good times @ Apr 7 2009, 12:15 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71984
essentially the bible tells us that we were created to love and worship god but that when he made us he gave us free will (the ability to choose for ourselves whether to do so or not) to distinguish us from the angels who do not have such a choice so that we will love and worship him by choice. multiple questions:first - if god gave us the choice why does choosing not to live according to the bible come with such a punishment as eternal suffering in hell followed by being eliminated from existence entirely with the second death in the lake of fire?second - if it is a choice we are to make ourselves then doesnt miracles and other spiritual manifestations of god infringe upon our free will? third - if the angels were not created with free will how was lucifer able to go against god and cause the uprising meant to challenge his authority?
#1 Hell is not exactly eternal... only a period of time... an age.#2 Not so sure what you are asking.#3 Because angels has free will... 1/3 of God's children (angels) followed Lucifer. (Satan) He is the leader of the rebellion.
essentially the bible tells us that we were created to love and worship god but that when he made us he gave us free will (the ability to choose for ourselves whether to do so or not) to distinguish us from the angels who do not have such a choice so that we will love and worship him by choice. multiple questions:first - if god gave us the choice why does choosing not to live according to the bible come with such a punishment as eternal suffering in hell followed by being eliminated from existence entirely with the second death in the lake of fire?second - if it is a choice we are to make ourselves then doesnt miracles and other spiritual manifestations of god infringe upon our free will? third - if the angels were not created with free will how was lucifer able to go against god and cause the uprising meant to challenge his authority?
#1 Hell is not exactly eternal... only a period of time... an age.#2 Not so sure what you are asking.#3 Because angels has free will... 1/3 of God's children (angels) followed Lucifer. (Satan) He is the leader of the rebellion.
QUOTE (Jordan @ Apr 6 2009, 10:24 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71989
#1 Hell is not exactly eternal... only a period of time... an age.
There's hell, then there's the lake of fire.
#1 Hell is not exactly eternal... only a period of time... an age.
There's hell, then there's the lake of fire.
QUOTE (Jordan @ Apr 7 2009, 12:24 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71989
#2 Not so sure what you are asking.
if god wants the choice to be ours then wouldnt any divine involvement in human affairs affect our decision making? it would no longer be a choice, thus overriding free will.
#2 Not so sure what you are asking.
if god wants the choice to be ours then wouldnt any divine involvement in human affairs affect our decision making? it would no longer be a choice, thus overriding free will.
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
QUOTE (good times @ Apr 7 2009, 01:15 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71984
essentially the bible tells us that we were created to love and worship god but that when he made us he gave us free will (the ability to choose for ourselves whether to do so or not) to distinguish us from the angels who do not have such a choice so that we will love and worship him by choice. multiple questions:first - if god gave us the choice why does choosing not to live according to the bible come with such a punishment as eternal suffering in hell followed by being eliminated from existence entirely with the second death in the lake of fire?second - if it is a choice we are to make ourselves then doesn't miracles and other spiritual manifestations of god infringe upon our free will? third - if the angels were not created with free will how was lucifer able to go against god and cause the uprising meant to challenge his authority?
Throughout man's history there has been a great deal of discussion, debate, and fierce "religious" controversy concerning the subject of "freewill" and its counterpart, "predestination".QUOTE
http://www.grace-els.org/confirmation/inte...tion/node6.htmlThere are basically two kinds of Protestants: Calvinist and Arminian.Calvin found all the Scriptures that say if you go to heaven, it is because God chose you. He concluded, logically, that if you do not go to heaven, it is because God did not choose you. This makes God responsible for damnation, and so horrifies most people that few Calvinists believe it anymore. Arminius went at it from the opposite direction. Arminius found all the Scriptures that say if you go to hell, it is be cause you choose to do evil. He concluded, logically, that if you do not go to hell, it is because you did not choose to do evil, that is, you did not reject Christ.
The Bible reveals that, in essence, free will and predetermination are "married". Paradoxically, God predestined Adam and Eve to have free will. He foreknew that they would be tempted and disobey His instructions not to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.THE NEED FOR SALVATION:Romans 5:12 "Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." Since we do not choose our conception and birth we should understand that our own free will is not a factor here, but rather the will of our parents, and since once physically born we are, by our inherited nature, sinners, we should understand that our free will is not a factor here also.This is why we need to be born again, this time spiritually into God's kingdom where we are no longer in jeopardy from the curse of the law which declares us guilty of sin.Galatians 3:13 "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Accursed is every one that hangs on a tree:" The death of Christ is a sufficient sacrifice in that it makes it possible for everyone to be forgiven and therefore not in danger of God's wrath on the Day of Judgement.THE GIFT OF SALVATION:Romans 5:18 "Therefore, as by the offense of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men to justification of life." The Parable of the Sower illustrates the fact that God's Word requires fertile soil in which to bring forth fruit. God does everything He can without coercing people into receiving Him.Matthew 13:18-23 Hear you therefore the parable of the sower. (19) When any one hears the word of the kingdom, and understands it not, then comes the wicked one, and catches away that which was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the way side. (20) But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that hears the word, and immediately with joy receives it; (21) Yet he has not root in himself, but endures for a while: for when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, forthwith he is offended. (22) He also that received seed among the thorns is he that hears the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. (23) But he that receives seed into the good ground is he that hears the word, and understands it; who also bears fruit, and brings forth, some a hundred fold, some sixty, some thirty.THE METHOD OF SALVATION:Ephesians 2:8-10 "For by grace are you saved, through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not by works, lest any man should boast. (10) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them."Since we are saved by grace through faith, and faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, without a person receiving (hearing) the Word of God they have no faith (belief) for God's grace to flow through.Much debate focuses on whether God makes people believe and decides who He will give faith to, or whether He influences everyone as much as possible but ultimately leaves them to make a free will choice. THE NEED FOR DAMNATION:John 1:1-11 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (2) The same was in the beginning with God. (3) All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made. (4) In Him was life; and the life was the light of men. (5) And the light shone in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. (6) There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. (7) The same came for a witness, to bear testimony of the Light, that all men through Him might believe. (8) He was not that Light, but was sent to bear testimony of that Light. (9) That was the true Light, which lights every man that comes into the world. (10) He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not. (11) He came to His own, and His own received Him not." God foreknew this would happen and fore-ordained the destiny of mankind, both believers and unbelievers.1Peter 1:18-21 "Forasmuch as you know that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain course of life received by tradition from your fathers; (19) But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: (20) Who verily was fore-ordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifested in these last times for you, (21) Who by Him do believe in God, that raised Him from the dead, and gave Him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God."Resistance to the sovereign will of God will be punished in order to ensure that His elect saints enjoy eternal rest and peace in heaven.Revelation 21:23-27 "And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God enlightened it, and the Lamb is the light of it. (24) And the nations of them who are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. (25) And the gates of it shall not be shut by day: for there shall be no night there. (26) And they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it. (27) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defiles, neither whatever works abomination, or makes a lie; but they who are written in the Lamb's book of life."INFRINGEMENTS OF FREE WILLIf your will is not in submission to God's will you will reap what you sow, either in remedial (correction), or penal (punishment) discipline.2Timothy 2:11-13 "It is a faithful saying: For if we are dead with Him, we shall also live with Him: (12) If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him: if we deny Him, He also will deny us: (13) If we believe not, yet He abideth faithful: He cannot deny Himself."Proverbs 3:5-8 "Trust in the LORD with all your heart; and lean not to your own understanding. (6) In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your paths. (7) Be not wise in your own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil. (8) It shall be health to your navel, and marrow to your bones.2Timothy 2:19-21 "Nevertheless the foundation of God stands firm, having this seal, The Lord knows them that are His. And, Let every one that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity. (20) But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honor, and some to dishonor. (21) If a man therefore will cleanse himself from these, he will be a vessel to honor, sanctified and meet for the master's use, and prepared to every good work."Philippians 2:12-13 "Wherefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. (13) For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure."
essentially the bible tells us that we were created to love and worship god but that when he made us he gave us free will (the ability to choose for ourselves whether to do so or not) to distinguish us from the angels who do not have such a choice so that we will love and worship him by choice. multiple questions:first - if god gave us the choice why does choosing not to live according to the bible come with such a punishment as eternal suffering in hell followed by being eliminated from existence entirely with the second death in the lake of fire?second - if it is a choice we are to make ourselves then doesn't miracles and other spiritual manifestations of god infringe upon our free will? third - if the angels were not created with free will how was lucifer able to go against god and cause the uprising meant to challenge his authority?
Throughout man's history there has been a great deal of discussion, debate, and fierce "religious" controversy concerning the subject of "freewill" and its counterpart, "predestination".QUOTE
http://www.grace-els.org/confirmation/inte...tion/node6.htmlThere are basically two kinds of Protestants: Calvinist and Arminian.Calvin found all the Scriptures that say if you go to heaven, it is because God chose you. He concluded, logically, that if you do not go to heaven, it is because God did not choose you. This makes God responsible for damnation, and so horrifies most people that few Calvinists believe it anymore. Arminius went at it from the opposite direction. Arminius found all the Scriptures that say if you go to hell, it is be cause you choose to do evil. He concluded, logically, that if you do not go to hell, it is because you did not choose to do evil, that is, you did not reject Christ.
The Bible reveals that, in essence, free will and predetermination are "married". Paradoxically, God predestined Adam and Eve to have free will. He foreknew that they would be tempted and disobey His instructions not to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.THE NEED FOR SALVATION:Romans 5:12 "Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." Since we do not choose our conception and birth we should understand that our own free will is not a factor here, but rather the will of our parents, and since once physically born we are, by our inherited nature, sinners, we should understand that our free will is not a factor here also.This is why we need to be born again, this time spiritually into God's kingdom where we are no longer in jeopardy from the curse of the law which declares us guilty of sin.Galatians 3:13 "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Accursed is every one that hangs on a tree:" The death of Christ is a sufficient sacrifice in that it makes it possible for everyone to be forgiven and therefore not in danger of God's wrath on the Day of Judgement.THE GIFT OF SALVATION:Romans 5:18 "Therefore, as by the offense of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men to justification of life." The Parable of the Sower illustrates the fact that God's Word requires fertile soil in which to bring forth fruit. God does everything He can without coercing people into receiving Him.Matthew 13:18-23 Hear you therefore the parable of the sower. (19) When any one hears the word of the kingdom, and understands it not, then comes the wicked one, and catches away that which was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the way side. (20) But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that hears the word, and immediately with joy receives it; (21) Yet he has not root in himself, but endures for a while: for when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, forthwith he is offended. (22) He also that received seed among the thorns is he that hears the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. (23) But he that receives seed into the good ground is he that hears the word, and understands it; who also bears fruit, and brings forth, some a hundred fold, some sixty, some thirty.THE METHOD OF SALVATION:Ephesians 2:8-10 "For by grace are you saved, through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not by works, lest any man should boast. (10) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them."Since we are saved by grace through faith, and faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, without a person receiving (hearing) the Word of God they have no faith (belief) for God's grace to flow through.Much debate focuses on whether God makes people believe and decides who He will give faith to, or whether He influences everyone as much as possible but ultimately leaves them to make a free will choice. THE NEED FOR DAMNATION:John 1:1-11 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (2) The same was in the beginning with God. (3) All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made. (4) In Him was life; and the life was the light of men. (5) And the light shone in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. (6) There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. (7) The same came for a witness, to bear testimony of the Light, that all men through Him might believe. (8) He was not that Light, but was sent to bear testimony of that Light. (9) That was the true Light, which lights every man that comes into the world. (10) He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not. (11) He came to His own, and His own received Him not." God foreknew this would happen and fore-ordained the destiny of mankind, both believers and unbelievers.1Peter 1:18-21 "Forasmuch as you know that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain course of life received by tradition from your fathers; (19) But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: (20) Who verily was fore-ordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifested in these last times for you, (21) Who by Him do believe in God, that raised Him from the dead, and gave Him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God."Resistance to the sovereign will of God will be punished in order to ensure that His elect saints enjoy eternal rest and peace in heaven.Revelation 21:23-27 "And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God enlightened it, and the Lamb is the light of it. (24) And the nations of them who are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. (25) And the gates of it shall not be shut by day: for there shall be no night there. (26) And they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it. (27) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defiles, neither whatever works abomination, or makes a lie; but they who are written in the Lamb's book of life."INFRINGEMENTS OF FREE WILLIf your will is not in submission to God's will you will reap what you sow, either in remedial (correction), or penal (punishment) discipline.2Timothy 2:11-13 "It is a faithful saying: For if we are dead with Him, we shall also live with Him: (12) If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him: if we deny Him, He also will deny us: (13) If we believe not, yet He abideth faithful: He cannot deny Himself."Proverbs 3:5-8 "Trust in the LORD with all your heart; and lean not to your own understanding. (6) In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your paths. (7) Be not wise in your own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil. (8) It shall be health to your navel, and marrow to your bones.2Timothy 2:19-21 "Nevertheless the foundation of God stands firm, having this seal, The Lord knows them that are His. And, Let every one that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity. (20) But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honor, and some to dishonor. (21) If a man therefore will cleanse himself from these, he will be a vessel to honor, sanctified and meet for the master's use, and prepared to every good work."Philippians 2:12-13 "Wherefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. (13) For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure."
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