Do we even have the correct definition of "saved?"

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Taken

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Your bargain with the grave will not stand
yes, currently; that is your current belief? "Before or after Jesus' ascension" huh?

not your body, but your body and soul? hmm.

Correction:
Before Christ Jesus returns to Earth:
MY Physically DEAD BODY, will be buried.
My living soul, My Quickened spirit wool go to Heaven.
Can't speak for you.

Ok, "soul" and "life" are the ezack same thing, right?

Not exactly.
Soul is something God Made for man.
Isa 57:16
[16] ...the souls which I have made.
God is Life.
God Life in a soul.
God imparts a soul with His Life into a body.
The Body (Form/ body, called man) becomes a Living soul and The Life (blood) of the Form (Body), begins its own individual living.

You do not "have" a soul, iow, except in a colloquial sense?

I do have a soul. My soul is "accounted" as MINE.
It is IN MY Body.
It is identified with the same NAME, as MY Body.
However, the difference IS:
My soul (and all souls) belong to God.
Life in my soul (and all souls) belongs to God.
My Body belonged to me.
Life (blood) in my Body belonged to me.
(Belonged)...past tense, Because I willingly GAVE, my Life (blood), my (body), TO God, on the day, I was CRUCIFIED "with Christ".
My Life, (blood) shall remain DEAD.
My Body, (temporarily) remains Dead.

My spirit was Quickened, that same day.
It received Gods Seed, was born Again of Gods Seed, and thus:
My (forgiven, restored, SAVED, living soul, &
My now living spirit,
Now "lives" temporarily", IN Christ's Living, risen in Glory, BODY. (Because, my Body is accounted dead, crucified, with Christ.)

I have a Spiritual Life "IN Christ" now.
It is a preparation accomplished, ready, prepared, FOR the Day, WHEN, Christ Jesus "descends From Heaven"..."To the Clouds"...
To...Redeem...(take, Claim, Call UP TO Him..HIS Church)

First, to go UP TO Him ARE, Physically DEAD Bodies. What Christ Jesus has WITH Him is Their Saved Souls, & Quickened spirits, that have been WITH Him in Heaven.
Their body's were raised up out of their graves, in a glorious bod, and their Saved soul and Quickened spirits are Imparted into their glorious body's.

Secondly to go UP TO Him, are the living body's, who Were Spiritually Crucified With Christ, whose Physical Body's have not yet Physically died...
Theirs Saved souls and Quickened spirits are still in them...their body's are raised in a glorified body.

Then is...Christ's Church...gathered Together With Christ Jesus, IN the air...every member...
Saved souls, Quickened spirits, in their own glorious risen Immortal Body, WITH and SEEING Christ Jesus, as He is...in His Glorious Body.

^ THAT is the Rapture (meaning a QUICK, taking, Redeeming,) BY Christ Jesus, OF Specifically, Those men God Gave To Jesus, that Jesus called His Church.

The "True" Church is NOT, Protestant, catholic, Jewish, Islam, Buddhist, etc.

The "TRUE" Church is Christs Church...members who are IN Christ...
Sav-ED souls, Quicken-ED spirits and waiting for their (glorious immortal) Body's to be "gathered together & RAISED UP "TO Him".

They are UP ABOVE the Earth With Christ Jesus...as Christ Jesus "Begins" The the period of Wrath upon the Earth, AKA,
The GREAT Tribulation, (as the world has never seen before).

Every living person left UPON the Earth...is without a Saved soul and without a Quickened spirit...They ALL shall be Subject to ONE level of Wrath...and (some will have their souls Saved, their spirits Quickened, their Body's KILLED)...and NOT experience the Increased levels of Wrath.
Some will experience the Fullness of The Wrath; Hope for Bodily death, to Stop their experiencing the Wrath, and they Will not be able to Bodily DIE...until God has finished with His Vengence...
(Which IS Gods Punishment UPON non- believers...WHO persecuted Believers...Because THEY Believed.

Point is:
Everyone is an individual, with FREEWILL, to choose The Lords WAY, or their OWN WAY...
An individual choosing The Lords WAY, Shall be PREPARED, for the day Of His choosing to Take (Redeem) them unto Himself.
Those Not Prepared, Shall suffer Wrath...
Until they ARE prepared...or by their OWN FREEWILL Forever Be Separated From the Lord God Almighty.

Matt 12:
[30] He that is not with me is against me;

Anyway, he who seeks to save his soul gone' lose it

Correct. "he" / "his"....is a man.
The Lord is the savior of souls, not human men.

There is only One Immortal

Correct. Jesus "our Example for men to See and Testify of what they saw"...was sent forth out from God, in a flesh body prepared of God, to give that Body & blood, for an Offering of Forgiveness and Salvation and Life to all men OF the world, who choose to Accept His Offering.
Jesus' body was Killed, and Jesus' Body was Risen Up to the Clouds IN a glorious Immortal Body...SAME a man IN Christ "will". experience.
(And WHY, until the day, their body IS risen up Immortal; they LIVE "IN CHRIST'S" Body.)

No one has ever gone up to heaven

No "ONE" "WHAT" exactly?

The Same which came "Down" from Heaven!
And What exactly came DOWN from Heaven?
Jesus Body.
Did humans Body's Come Down from Heaven?
No. they came from dust of the Earth and return to dust of the Earth.


So no, no man (body) has gone up to Heaven, except the ONE (Jesus) which came down from Heaven.

You and your sons will be here with me
All go to the same place
lillies of the field

Sure. All human body's OF mankind...
Come out of the dust of the Earth, and return to dust of the Earth...
And Redemption...is at The Lord Gods pleasure OF WHEN and WHICH Body's He Shall Raise Up...Immortal...(and Judge Saved and keep with Him) and WHEN and WHICH Body's He shall raise up "mortal" (and Judge
Unsaved and Sentence them to Distruction...Life in the soul returned to God...and the body and soul destroyed...)

and Adam became a living soul

Before Adam "Became"...Adam was A CREATED And formed Body, called MAN...
WHAT Adam WAS, didn't change. He was still Adam, a body, a man out of the Earth.

What Changed...was his Body became Alive...
His blood (his life) became Alive...the moment he received Life from Gods Breath...Gods Life, in a soul that belongs to God, yet has the name Adam.

Ezek 18:
[
4] Behold, all souls are mine;

Man has extensive control over HIS Body, His Life (blood) in his body.
Man can Kill his Body. Man can Kill other men's Body's.
The Body IS MORTAL ( which means, it Shall DIE)... and Men CAN KILL it, and The Blood LIFE in the Body Will DIE, and the Body will rot and return to dust of the Earth.

But men can NOT Kill a SOUL. Men can NOT Kill the LIFE IN a soul. Not his own within him, called by his Name, not an others.

Men can NOT Kill a Quickened (born Again ) spirit or the LIFE in that spirit...in himself or an other man.

me? evidence? you mean like facts or truth or whatever? i got nothin, sorry. And dont be quoting me either pls k :)

The Knowledge of the Facts ARE IN Gods WORD. All have an advantage of having Written Knowledge. We who ARE "IN Christ" have an advantage of having the Written Knowledge AND availability of Gods Understanding of the Knowledge...By the presence of the Lords Spirit "Within us."

That IS a conundrum ^... unto Satan..brilliant with Knowledge..(like many men who read and read the knowledge...but do not Have the Lords spirit within them...to Have the Understanding of Gods Word). Philosophers, and many men rely on their Minds logic to try and weigh, figure, Cipher Gods Understanding of Gods Word...and it's a fail...and WHY there are umpteen different taught Philosophies "out of umpteen conclusions of men's minds" taught as This or That umpteen Religions.

IMO - the Catholics and Muslims are the Boldest of All...proudly teaching "their" Understanding of God..."according TO"...the Philosophies of men...(their pope and Mohammad, both, human men).

your bargain with death will be annulled
your agreement with Sheol will not stand
when the terrible enemy sweeps through,
you will be trampled into the ground

Mine? No.
My "bargin" was made with Christ the Lord.
MY willing Bodily Death For His Gift of Eternal Life.
I Trust He IS Faithful to Do as He Promised.

So what you claim, may apply to you. And certainly may apply to Others, but Does Not APPLY TO me...or any other man who has chosen to become Prepared IN Christ.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Taken

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But that's a fallacy since you can only KNOW what you are doing now....not in the future. You can hope. It's funny how that word hope is never used by modern people yet it is one of the big three..faith HOPE and love. Not....faith know and love.

Disagree.
Jews (for the most part, those Under the Law) and Catholics...are Waiting until the end of their physical life...waiting to See IF they HAVE acceptably pleased God, to receive Salvation...

Christians IN Christ believe, the Lord is Faithful and PREPARED their soul the moment they ELECT to Give God Authority over their Life, (which in part is responded by the Lords forgiveness and His Restoration/ Salvation of their soul "Then")

^ They don't Wait to See if their soul was Saved...They Trust It is By the Indwelling Power of God....Saved and Kept Saved!

Glory to God,
Taken
 
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BreadOfLife

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prolly not even very close
This is how the BIBLE explains it . . .

- Initial Salvation – The grace from God that enables us to have faith. Faith itself is a grace from God.
- Ongoing Sanctification – The lifelong process of being made holy.
- Final Salvation – When we are finally sanctified at the end of our earthly life after remaining faithful to the end.
Salvation is a processnot a one-time event.

The Scriptures assure us that we as Christians are ALREADY SAVED (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8)
This is Initial Salvation – God give us the initial grace to believe.

However, because Salvation is a LIFELONG process – it ALSO says that I am BEING SAVED (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14). This is Ongoing Sanctification – God is sanctifying us throughout our life as we cooperate with his grace.

Because of this, I have the hope that I WILL BE SAVED (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
This is Final Sanctification/Salvation – We die and go to heaven having endured to the end.
 

Episkopos

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Disagree.
Jews (for the most part, those Under the Law) and Catholics...are Waiting until the end of their physical life...waiting to See IF they HAVE acceptably pleased God, to receive Salvation...

Christians IN Christ believe, the Lord is Faithful and PREPARED their soul the moment they ELECT to Give God Authority over their Life, (which in part is responded by the Lords forgiveness and His Restoration/ Salvation of their soul "Then")

^ They don't Wait to See if their soul was Saved...They Trust It is By the Indwelling Power of God....Saved and Kept Saved!

Glory to God,
Taken


You mean protestants. And being a protestant means you can judge others as not as saved as you. I know what humans do with religious ideologies. I study history.

I think your reasoning is backwards...I think protestants will fare worse because they justify themselves. But a Pharisee doesn't see himself.
 

Taken

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You mean protestants.

Well no, I meant what I said...Those IN Christ. It could be, Gentile Protestants, Gentile Converted Christians, Jewish Converts often called a Messanic Jew... or whatever Label one ( Sav-ED and Born Again ) wants to call themselves.

And being a protestant means you can judge others as not as saved as you.

I never said Protestant means Judge.
That is your meaning of Protestant, not mine...nor would I render that is the meaning according to people who call themselves Protestant.

An individual knows his own choices and actions.
Those choices and actions are only truly known by the individual and the Lord God.

I can KNOW what an other Declares for himself...and agree with that as a Doctrine of God...or Not.

I know what humans do with religious ideologies. I study history.

Ok, I study history also ...And pay attention to what men say for themselves Here and now...and am in agreement with some and disagreement with others.

I think your reasoning is backwards...

I am already apprised that you are Catholic and you are (by your word) subject to adherence to Catholic Doctrine and I am (by my word) subject to adherence to Christ Jesus' Doctrine.

So what you "think" has no baring or consequence to me.

I think protestants will fare worse because they justify themselves.

The Word of God reveals the Converted IN Christ, SHALL fair with Eternal Life...which personally I find Paramount, over your thinking.

And not once have I ever heard a person calling themselves a Protestant...
Make such a ridiculous claim... that "they JUSTIFIED themselves".

Gods Word reveals the Lord God is the one with authority to Justify men....

Where did you get such a ridiculous notion?

[QOUTE] But a Pharisee doesn't see himself.[/QUOTE]

Pretty sure in the day of Pharisees they could see the clothes they put on, SEE other Pharisees, see their reflections in streams and knew their own trade secrets, of thinking themselves more highly rated and entitled than those of the masses that they looked down upon as sub-par, compared to their own
Supposed "superior" status...

Eh... Jesus called them out, revealed the Truth.

Kind of like Catholics, eh? The long clothing, the elevation of "supposed" holiness, dictating to the masses, what is and is not "acceptable" to "them".
 

amadeus

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jesus blood and water baptism
Just keep on trying, if that is what you are doing, and you may yet get there for the Way is still open, but...

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matt 7:13-14
 
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ScottA

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But that's a fallacy since you can only KNOW what you are doing now....not in the future. You can hope. It's funny how that word hope is never used by modern people yet it is one of the big three..faith HOPE and love. Not....faith know and love.
No...that is only true for those who have not yet passed from death to life, those who have not been born again of the spirit of God, and those who are not NOW living in Christ and He in them.

But those are not the saved. Those are the seekers, the followers, the hopeful, those not fully in, and those found wanting.

On the contrary, one who is actually saved has nowhere to go back to, for they have passed on. They are the living.
 
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bbyrd009

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But do you believe it?
do i believe you are saved? Well, lets just say that imo your odds went down a lot as soon as you started professing that. I believe i have a hope--likely a small hope--of salvation, though, if you meant do i believe that personally

few there are who find it
 

bbyrd009

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Please enlighten us.
ah well i dont know, sorry, but i do notice that among western believers particularly the term "saved" pretty much means "assured of going up to heaven after i have literally died" now, which ppl are even avoiding admitting here, etc, hence my op.

i am fwiw fam with the um brochure, all the phrases that are usually invoked in support of that belief...but i notice that they are all conditional, yet believers seem to have no probs professing to be saved after even the briefest of encounters? And pretty much all start singin "When We All Get to Heaven" like right after that?
 

ScottA

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you dont see any possibility for self deception there?
Yes, I do. Many are deceived in thinking they are saved who are not. Many are convinced they are saved by their own understanding that have not actually been born again of the spirit of God, but rather are immersed in their own warm and fuzzy feel-good notions, and only "hope" for salvation without fully surrendering that old self to be One with God.
 

bbyrd009

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How can we if, as you say, we don't know what salvation is?
ezackly, so another point to this was to mention how as soon as one says "i am saved," they would naturally no longer be looking for true salvation if they were perhaps wrong in some regard, and almost certainly no longer interested in having merely a hope of salvation.

fwiw this issue is what split the Anabaptists i guess, into Amish/Mennonite
 
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amadeus

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Well, there’s a lot about that I like, definitely :) only I don’t know of anyone here actually “in the fire,” Or even much “walking through the valley” for that matter...Imo we are all mountaintop dwellers LOL
Is that wishful thinking on our part or is it really a lack of vision/understanding or a lack of faith?

Consider what David wrote:

"Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me." Psalm 23:4

Was he ever really there according to what is in the scripture? Assuming the answer is, yes, was he afraid of evil?

"And the Philistines stood on a mountain on the one side, and Israel stood on a mountain on the other side: and there was a valley between them." I Sam 17:3

"And David said to Saul, Let no man's heart fail because of him; thy servant will go and fight with this Philistine." I Sam 17:32

"Then said David to the Philistine, Thou comest to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a shield: but I come to thee in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom thou hast defied.
This day will the LORD deliver thee into mine hand; and I will smite thee, and take thine head from thee; and I will give the carcases of the host of the Philistines this day unto the fowls of the air, and to the wild beasts of the earth; that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel.
And all this assembly shall know that the LORD saveth not with sword and spear: for the battle is the Lord's, and he will give you into our hands.
And it came to pass, when the Philistine arose, and came and drew nigh to meet David, that David hasted, and ran toward the army to meet the Philistine.

And David put his hand in his bag, and took thence a stone, and slang it, and smote the Philistine in his forehead, that the stone sunk into his forehead; and he fell upon his face to the earth." I Sam 17:45-49

A long time after David was buried Jesus came and the Holy Ghost was poured out in accord with Joe's prophecy. Where now are our Davids? Where is our valley? Where are our Goliaths? Where are our slings? No giants for us to kill? What of the beasts within that tempt each of us to sin?

"She [Wisdom] hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table." Prov 9:2

David killed Goliath. He saved himself and Israel from the Philistines, but did any beasts remain in him from which he must also be saved? Probably less than 30 years later when he was King of Israel he was walking on the roof and observed a woman washing herself. He was tempted and he sinned. His beasts were most certainly Not all dead yet!

But again he was saved from the death which according to the law given to Moses was his due:

"Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon." II Sam 12:9

And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die." II Sam 12:13

Being like Jesus should be our goal, but the actual experience any of us who is saved at the end of his course [his allotted time] will more likely resemble the course of David than the course of the man, Jesus.
 
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bbyrd009

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This is how the BIBLE explains it . . .

- Initial Salvation – The grace from God that enables us to have faith. Faith itself is a grace from God.
- Ongoing Sanctification – The lifelong process of being made holy.
- Final Salvation – When we are finally sanctified at the end of our earthly life after remaining faithful to the end.
Salvation is a processnot a one-time event.

The Scriptures assure us that we as Christians are ALREADY SAVED (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8)
This is Initial Salvation – God give us the initial grace to believe.

However, because Salvation is a LIFELONG process – it ALSO says that I am BEING SAVED (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14). This is Ongoing Sanctification – God is sanctifying us throughout our life as we cooperate with his grace.

Because of this, I have the hope that I WILL BE SAVED (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
This is Final Sanctification/Salvation – We die and go to heaven having endured to the end.
No one has ever gone up to heaven but He Who came down from it, the Son of Man
There is only One Immortal, Who dwells in unapproachable light
...you and your sons will be here with me

?
 

Enow

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i reckon you can call Him whatever you want :)

many will cry "LordLord"

I can call Him my Saviour because I am saved. Can you?

As for "Lord", I trust Him as my Good Shepherd to help me to follow Him. You can too.