The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

Enow said:

Scripture for how Jesus Christ is your Head as the Word of God.

Click to expand...

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, and since the Church is the “fullness” of Christ (Eph 1:22), the Church is also the Word of God. And we know by now the “Church” is the Catholic Church. So the doctrines of the Catholic Church are the Word of God.

The term, “the word of God”, is used many times in the NT, but as far as I know, only once does it specifically refer to Scripture - Matt 15:6 - and even then it refers to only the OT.

2 Timothy 3:13

Click to expand...

2Tim 3:13-17 says nothing about “the Word of God”, and the “scriptures” it refers to are the OT.

Scripture is used by Him for this purpose.
Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Click to expand...

Wow, talk about quoting scripture out of context! The text does not attribute those things to scripture - they are attributed to the “apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers” (v. 11) who are provided as a result of Christ’s gifts of grace (v. 7). So it is the CHURCH - not the scriptures - that is responsible for perfecting a man and bringing him to the “fullness of Christ” (v.13).

And notice the similarity of "fullness of Christ" in v.13 to Eph 1:22, which says the Church is the “fullness“ of Christ.

Truther said:

The Bible....

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;



The RCC....


5 For there is one God, and SEVERAL mediatorS between God and men, the QUEEN OF HEAVEN, HOLY MARY, MOTHER OF GOD AND HER SON AND THE PRIEST ETC;

Click to expand...

You didn't read my post. I said Mary is a mediator between us and the MAN, Christ Jesus. I'm not talking about a mediator between GOD and man, but a mediator between MAN (Christ Jesus) and man.

Truther said:

No silly, Rev 11 is another city.

Click to expand...

How is it possible to have a sane discussion with someone who flat-out denies the plain words of Scripture?

BreadOfLife said:

This is complete nonsense - but NOT surprising, coming from a person who denies Christ and espouses heresy.

Let's start with your idiotic fantasy of it being "Roman Policy" about Cardinals in Red and Bishops in Purple.

A Catholic Cardinal . . .

A Catholic Bishop . . .

Let's move onto your asinine charge about "6 million" people killed by the Church in a six year period.
First of all - Not ONE SINGLE PERSON has ever been put to death by the Church. these were the actions of Governments.

Secondly - the Inquisitions in Europe, which lasted some 400 years resulted in the deaths of about 3000-4000 people. AGAIN, by the State - NOT the Church. Six million is a really stupid charge . . .

As for Baptism - NONE of you has been able to show me ONE detailed instruction for HOW to Baptize somebody in the pages of Scripture - yet you INSIST that Immersion is the "ONLY" valid way. WHY is that??

As for Priestly Celibacy - this is a matter of DISCIPLINE, not doctrine - and can theoretically change.
HOWEVER - it is recommended in the Bible (1 Cor. 7) - NOT condemned.

Finally - the following verses of Scripture destroy your heresy that there is NO Trinity . . .
(Gen. 1:26, Matt. 28:19, John 15:26, 1 Cor. 12:4-6, 2 Cor. 13:14, 1 John 5:7, Eph. 4:6, Psalm 68:5, Mal. 2:10, Isa. 63:16, 2 Cor. 1:3-4, John 3:16, John 8:41, 1 Thess. 3:13, Isa. 7:14, Isa. 9:6, John 1:1, John 1:3, John 8:58, John 10:30, John 15:9, John 20:28, Acts 5:3-4, 2 Cor. 4:4, Phil. 2:6, Col. 2:9, 1 Tim. 3:16, Heb. 1:8, Tit. 2:13, John 14:16-18, Luke 12:10, 2 Cor. 3:17, 2 Cor. 13:5, John 14:23, Acts 5:3-4).

Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but here are the pics (if you were honest) should have posted...






Yep ... looks like RED and PURPLE to me. Sorry but you cannot run from Bible Prophecy!


Now then, lets take a look at your "so called" 17 years of defending the Great Whore.

Here is what GOD SAYS...

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Revelation 18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8] Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Revelation 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
22] And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23] And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.


Now then, since your Great Whore is utterly destroyed by God because he has remembered her sins, and you have been proudly "defending" her for 17 years, AND since God was NOT pleased with her (hence her destruction), what do you think God is saying to YOU (hence the command to "come out of her").


Let's take a look at what happens to your "so called" Jerusalem Harlot...

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.


Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
23] And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25] And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26] And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27]And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.


Ok Mr. school teacher, one harlot is destroyed by God who has judged her sins, which YOU have defended for 17 yrs (very poorly I might add). The other goes on forever having a glorious future. Which do you think is which?

I'm telling you with the love of God, to get off your high horse and obey Acts 2:38 before it's all too late.

Proverbs 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

Enow said:

I understand that you can lose track of our conversation with so many others in this thread, but we are talking about why Jesus Christ does not need any help as the only Mediator between God and men in Heaven. The fact that God the Father knows before we even ask, shows Jesus can handle the job all by Himself. See? No one else need apply.

Click to expand...

"Only Mediator" does not exclude our participation, so your definition of "only Mediator" is a false man made tradition in itself. Jesus does not need our help, that is a straw man fallacy to begin with. Nobody is saying Jesus needs our help. Just you.
You use the same words but with different meanings. You have a different meaning for words like "doctrine", "infallibility", and "tradition", all fabrications. You speak a different language which is why discussions like these go nowhere. You refuse to bend from your false definitions no matter how many ways it is explained to you.

user said:

I'm sorry, but here are the pics (if you were honest) should have posted...

Yep ... looks like RED and PURPLE to me. Sorry but you cannot run from Bible Prophecy!

Click to expand...

Rather than assigning the whore's colors their symbolic meaning (purple for royalty, red for the blood of martyrs), Hunt is suddenly, joltingly literal in his interpretation. He caught on well enough that the woman <symbolizes> a city and that the fornication <symbolizes> something other than a sexual act, but now he wants to assign colors a purely literal fulfillment in the clothing of Catholic ecclesiastics.

Besides, purple and red are not the dominant colors of clerical clothing. Black and white are. Consider the average priest's "clericals" (black suit with white Roman collar); priests' clerical garb is never purple or red, and for only a short time during the liturgical year do they wear chasubles with purple or red. But every priest wears a white alb at Mass. Even bishops and cardinals usually wear black (look at the bishop or cardinal who heads your diocese). And the pope, of course, always wears white.

The purple and scarlet of the whore are contrasts to the white worn by the New Jerusalem, the Bride of Christ (Rev. 19:8). This makes two more problems for Hunt: The clothing of the Bride is given a symbolic interpretation ("the righteous acts of the saints"; 19:8) implying that the clothing of the whore should also be given a symbolic meaning, and the identification of the Bride as <New> Jerusalem (Rev. 3:12. 21:2,10) suggests that the whore may be <old>, apostate Jerusalem—a contrast used elsewhere in Scripture (Gal. 4:25-26).

Another problem for Hunt is that he ignores the liturgical meaning of the colors purple and red. Purple symbolizes repentance, and red honors the blood of Christ and the Christian martyrs— both of these things being noble, whereas in Revelation these colors reveal how ignoble the whore is.

It is entirely appropriate for Catholic clerics to wear purple and scarlet because these have been liturgical colors ever since ancient Israel. In fact, together with blue and white, they were the dominant colors of the Israelite liturgy. God commanded that the curtains which formed the walls of the Tabernacle be made with purple and scarlet yarn (Ex. 25:4, 26:1, 31, 36, 27:16, 36:8, 35, 37, 38:18, 39:34). He commanded the tabernacle to have a ceiling made of ram skins dyed red (Ex. 26:14, 36:19, 39:34). He commanded that when they were being moved the table of the bread of the presence be covered with a scarlet cloth (Num. 4:8) and the bronze altar with a purple cloth (Num. 4:13). He commanded that scarlet yarn and wool be used in liturgical ceremonies (Lev. 14:4, 6, 49-52, Num. 19:6). He commanded that the vestments for priests be made with purple and scarlet yarn (Ex. 28:4-8, 15, 33, 39:1-8, 24, 29). If there was nothing sinister about the Israelites using these God-commanded colors then, there is nothing sinister about the Catholic clergy using them now.
Hunt-ing the Whore of Babylon | EWTN

Truther said:

I whooped you, Catholic.

Click to expand...

Surrrre, you did.
The only thing you've "whooped" is the idea that you know anything.

Your ignorance is legendary on this forum . . .

Enow said:

Said traditions as found in scripture; not new ones created by the Catholic Church not found as taught in scripture. Big difference.

Click to expand...

Uh huh - such as??

Let me remind you that the very Canon of the NT that YOU adhere to is a Catholic Tradition . . .

Enow said:

I understand that you can lose track of our conversation with so many others in this thread, but we are talking about why Jesus Christ does not need any help as the only Mediator between God and men in Heaven. The fact that God the Father knows before we even ask, shows Jesus can handle the job all by Himself. See? No one else need apply.

Click to expand...

Once again - you are implying that praying for one another is pointless because we have Christ.

The Bible disagrees with you.
We are commanded in Scripture to intercede and pray for one another (James 5:16, Eph. 6:18, 1 Tim. 2:1, Phi. 4:6).

Truther said:

Yeah, just ask the kids at the garbage dump that Mary appears to and chats with, and ask the crying statues. Then ask the priest to remit your sins....

Click to expand...

Exactly - that's why I said that Christ's guarantee that the Holy Spirit would guide His Church to all truth (John 16:12-15) DOESN'T extend to the individual.

Otherwise - YOU would have to explain why there are tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that ALL teach different doctrines and ALL claim to have been "led" by the Holy Spirit.
You'd ALSO have to explain how people like YOU have invented a different god than the Triune Godhead of the Bible . . .

BreadOfLife said:

Exactly - that's why I said that Christ's guarantee that the Holy Spirit would guide His Church to all truth (John 16:12-15) DOESN'T extend to the individual.

Otherwise - YOU would have to explain why there are tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that ALL teach different doctrines and ALL claim to have been "led" by the Holy Spirit.
You'd ALSO have to explain how people like YOU have invented a different god than the Triune Godhead of the Bible . . .

Click to expand...

Look, I hate to break your heart, but the Holy Ghost(God) does not speak through dead saints to us.

RogerDC said:

How is it possible to have a sane discussion with someone who flat-out denies the plain words of Scripture?

Click to expand...

I suppose you think a city is a city is a city.

I hope you know what city you are in this morning.

RogerDC said:

You didn't read my post. I said Mary is a mediator between us and the MAN, Christ Jesus. I'm not talking about a mediator between GOD and man, but a mediator between MAN (Christ Jesus) and man.

Click to expand...

You did not read my post.

The word of God says there is one, lone mediator, not a sub mediator or an attorney for the mediator.

You must think Jesus is running an administration of mediators?

Read carefully...


5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Truther said:

Look, I hate to break your heart, but the Holy Ghost(God) does not speak through dead saints to us.

Click to expand...

Tell that to Christ, who spoke to Moses at the Transfiguration.
Wasn't Moses "DEAD"??

You're embarrassing yourself again, Einstein . . .

BreadOfLife said:

Tell that to Christ, who spoke to Moses at the Transfiguration.
Wasn't Moses "DEAD"??

You're embarrassing yourself again, Einstein . . .

Click to expand...

The Holy Ghost speaks to us through Moses too?

Catholic kids are seeing Moses and speak to his statue now?

Truther said:

The Holy Ghost speaks to us through Moses too?
Catholic kids are seeing Moses and speak to his statue now?

Click to expand...

Another stupid response because I backed you into another corner.
What a surprise . . .

RogerDC said:

Of all the dumb anti-Catholic arguments, this one must be the dumbest. Matt 23:9 says, “call no man your father on earth” - so I can’t call my biological father, my Father?

Click to expand...

Since Jesus is referring to spiritual leaders, no.

In Acts 7:2, Stephen addresses the Jewish religious leaders as “Brethren and fathers”. Likewise, in Acts 22:1, Paul addresses the tribune as “Brethren and fathers”.

Click to expand...

That would be going against what Jesus had taught so discern how it is used.

Acts 7:2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,

Therefore the title was addressing family relations use of that term.

Matt 28:8 says “But you are not be called rabbi, for your have one teacher” - so we cannot call anyone a teacher? We can’t call a school teacher, a “teacher“?

Click to expand...

Doesn't say that.

Matthew 28:8 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.

You must have given a wrong reference. Here it is in context so you can read what message Jesus is giving for why we should not be called that.

Matthew 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

The idea is not to exalt yourself over others by a title. It is one thing to lead by example like servant leadership, but it is another to take the place of authority when Jesus Christ, the Word of God, is the authority over every believer and thus Head over every Christian.

As is the wont of fundamentalists, they interpret this passage literally, when anyone with half a brain realizes it shouldn’t be.Even if such reports were true, it doesn’t prove that what the Catholic Church teaches as doctrine is false. The Catholic Church is the word of God - she is guided by the Holy Spirit, who cannot teach errors and falsehoods.

Click to expand...

The point is, Jesus was telling believers not to be called Rabbi, nor Father, nor Master when God is the One each believer is to look to for that.

RogerDC said:

It would seem you don’t understand the doctrine of Papal Infallibility. A Pope does not need be Impeccable (faultless) in order to be Infallible.

King David killed Uriah in order to take his wife, for which God punished him with terrible curses - yet David wrote the book of Psalms. David did not have to be Impeccable in order for God to use him to write infallible words of Scripture. Furthermore, all the prophets (except Jesus) were sinners and not Impeccable, yet when God spoke through them, they were Infallible.

Click to expand...

David repented. That is how he was abiding in Him when he wrote the Psalms.

The 7 Popes were teaching others while living in sin? Not the same thing, brother.


Peter is the first Pope the moment he was named Peter in according to Catholics' point of view, right? When he rebuked Jesus for saying the prophesy regarding His death, Jesus rebuked Satan out of him. So that should be enough evidence to drop the lie of the doctrine of infallible Pope.

RogerDC said:

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, and since the Church is the “fullness” of Christ (Eph 1:22), the Church is also the Word of God. And we know by now the “Church” is the Catholic Church. So the doctrines of the Catholic Church are the Word of God.

The term, “the word of God”, is used many times in the NT, but as far as I know, only once does it specifically refer to Scripture - Matt 15:6 - and even then it refers to only the OT.2Tim 3:13-17 says nothing about “the Word of God”, and the “scriptures” it refers to are the OT.

Wow, talk about quoting scripture out of context! The text does not attribute those things to scripture - they are attributed to the “apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers” (v. 11) who are provided as a result of Christ’s gifts of grace (v. 7). So it is the CHURCH - not the scriptures - that is responsible for perfecting a man and bringing him to the “fullness of Christ” (v.13).

And notice the similarity of "fullness of Christ" in v.13 to Eph 1:22, which says the Church is the “fullness“ of Christ.

Click to expand...

The body of believers is the church. The fullness is in the believers, each and every one of them; not a denomination nor a church building.

1 Corinthians 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

So when I read this below, I apply Christ as the head to each individual believer and not just the assembly of believers, brother.

Ephesians 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Illuminator said:

"Only Mediator" does not exclude our participation, so your definition of "only Mediator" is a false man made tradition in itself. Jesus does not need our help, that is a straw man fallacy to begin with. Nobody is saying Jesus needs our help. Just you.
You use the same words but with different meanings. You have a different meaning for words like "doctrine", "infallibility", and "tradition", all fabrications. You speak a different language which is why discussions like these go nowhere. You refuse to bend from your false definitions no matter how many ways it is explained to you.

Click to expand...

The Catholic Church teaches a different language when you can't find what they teach in the N.T. when it was never taught to the churches that way.

Stephen had died. Not once was there any reference to praying to him for help. And if you think about it, that is like asking him for help when such prayers to departed saints is vain and absurd when prayers should be offered to God only.

Name one reference in the N.T. where someone offered a prayer request to a departed saint. Now that is what I am talking about.