Former Believers Are Still Saved?

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Enow

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Paul gives an example of how some believers will err from the truth and have their faith overthrown, but he points out that nevertheless that foundation remains along with His seal for why believers should be calling former believers to repent by going to that throne of grace for help in discernment of the lies in seeing the truth in His words to believe in Him again.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

This is done so they, too, can obtain the eternal glory that comes with our salvation which is to be that vessel unto honor in His House to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven at the pre great tribulation rapture even when the Bridegroom comes for the abiding bride of Christ.

This faithful saying mentioned earlier in the chapter confirms the words above as true.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

So even though former believers and carnal believers are left behind for failing to look to the author & finisher of our faith to help them lay aside every weight & sin, they are still saved, but there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth because they will wished they had repented. To be damned forever as a vessel unto dishonor in His House means they can never be that vessel unto honor in His House where they are like the angels that never die and live in the city of God in Heaven whereas the vessels unto honor will only be protected from the power of the second death; thus physical death is still possible, and they will serve the King of kings all over the world in raising up the generations during the millennium reign of Christ. So there is a glorified firstfruit of the celestial resurrection and then the glorified terrestrial resurrection of those saints left behind with the new saints being resurrected after the great tribulation when Christ is on earth already after defeating the world's armies that was marching against Jerusalem & Satan is in the pit for a thousand years.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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So even though former believers and carnal believers are left behind for failing to look to the author & finisher of our faith to help them lay aside every weight & sin, they are still saved, but there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth because they will wished they had repented.

The Holy Spirit's word does not teach OSAS, does not teach that the unbeliever will be saved.
 

Enow

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The Holy Spirit's word does not teach OSAS,

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

[/QUOTE]does not teach that the unbeliever will be saved.[/QUOTE]

Not promoting universalism, but I am testifying to the power of God in salvation on "former" believers as that IS part of the faithful saying.

2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

So until you explain away the word given in the OP and in this post, you are found wanting of scripture that plainly states what you believe.
 

Renniks

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Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

So even though former believers and carnal believers are left behind for failing to look to the author & finisher of our faith to help them lay aside every weight & sin, they are still saved,
That's not what it says.
"If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself."

If we disown him, we are obviously no longer his. "he remains faithful "does not mean they were still saved.
 
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Ernest T. Bass

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John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Not promoting universalism, but I am testifying to the power of God in salvation on "former" believers as that IS part of the faithful saying.

2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

So until you explain away the word given in the OP and in this post, you are found wanting of scripture that plainly states what you believe.

John 6:39 "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

Does God just randomly, unconditionally give men to Christ for no particular reason? No. From the context of John 6, these that have a present tense believing are the ones given to Christ and the ones Christ should not lose. Therefore those that CONDITONALLY CONTINUE to believe are the ones Christ "should not lose". In John 17, Judas was one who was given to Christ that Christ kept (John 17:6-12) yet Judas did not faithfully maintain a present tense belief thereby became lost.

John 6:40 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Again, the present tense of the verbs "seeth" and "believeth" denotes an action that is ongoing, sustained. Therefore if one quits believing he will not have everlasting life. The verb "may" is subjunctive mood which "is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances." Strong's. Which means one may or may not have everlasting life depending on the circumstance of maintaining a present tense belief or not.

John 6:40 NIV "For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

Note how the NIV changes the subjunctive mood (may have) and wrongly substituted the indicative mood (shall have) in an attempt to get around the fact that everlasting life is conditional upon maintaining a present tense belief.

The context does not remotely suggest if one quits believing he shall have everlasting life anyway. Romans 5:2 faith is what gives access to God's grace. If one can be saved faithlessly then he will somehow be saved without God's grace also for no verse says faithlessness gives access to God's grace.

======================

2 Timothy 2:12 "If (conditional word) we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:"

Those that quit believing (denying God, refuse to suffer for their belief) will be denied by God. (Also Matthew 10:33)

2 Timothy 2:13 "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."

Those that are faithless, have lack of trust, lack of fidelity toward God will be lost. The fact God "abides faithful and cannot deny Himself", He cannot lie and go against His own word and promises means God will NOT treat the faithless as they were still faithful. As one person aptly put it, God "cannot act as though faithfulness and faithlessness were one and the same thing." (Spence). God will be faithful to Himself, His words and promises and judge the faithless to be lost.

"Those who have understood these words as containing soothing, comforting voices for the sinner, for the faithless Christian who has left his first love, are gravely mistaken. The passage is one of distinct severity—may even be termed one of the sternest in the Book of Life; for it tells how it is impossible even for the pitiful Redeemer to forgive in the future life. “He cannot deny Himself”—cannot treat the faithless as though he were faithful—cannot act as though faithfulness and faithlessness were one and the same thing. The Christian teacher, such as Timothy, and the members of his flock likewise, must remember that, sure and certain as are the promises of glory and happiness to those who love the Lord and try to live His life, so surely will fall the chastisement on all who are faithless and untrue." Ellicott
 
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Enow

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John 6:39 "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

Does God just randomly, unconditionally give men to Christ for no particular reason? No. From the context of John 6, these that have a present tense believing are the ones given to Christ and the ones Christ should not lose. Therefore those that CONDITONALLY CONTINUE to believe are the ones Christ "should not lose". In John 17, Judas was one who was given to Christ that Christ kept (John 17:6-12) yet Judas did not faithfully maintain a present tense belief thereby became lost.

John 6:40 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Again, the present tense of the verbs "seeth" and "believeth" denotes an action that is ongoing, sustained. Therefore if one quits believing he will not have everlasting life. The verb "may" is subjunctive mood which "is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances." Strong's. Which means one may or may not have everlasting life depending on the circumstance of maintaining a present tense belief or not.

To believe is the result of the Father giving that person to the Son. To err and have the faith overthrown is regardless because the foundation remains as well as His seal for why even former believers are still called to depart from iniquity to be that vessel unto honor in His House.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

John 6:40 NIV "For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

Note how the NIV changes the subjunctive mood (may have) and wrongly substituted the indicative mood (shall have) in an attempt to get around the fact that everlasting life is conditional upon maintaining a present tense belief.

The context does not remotely suggest if one quits believing he shall have everlasting life anyway. Romans 5:2 faith is what gives access to God's grace. If one can be saved faithlessly then he will somehow be saved without God's grace also for no verse says faithlessness gives access to God's grace.

You overlook the cause and effect for when a person believes and that he has eternal life. The fact that he believes not, He still abides is proof he has eternal life. You cannot lose the seal nor remove that foundation that Christ as laid. You cannot become unsaved, but again, at risk of being disqualified from being received by the Bridegroom as a vessel unto ho or in His House thus left behind to become vessels unto dishonor in His House. This is where the vessels unto dishonor comes from that did not depart from iniquity and thus not of the firstfruits of the resurrection for why they are to be resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels of wood and earth for why they are still in His House.

So like the prodigal son, he gave up his inheritance for wild living and cannot get it back ( once that door is shut for the Marriage Supper, nobody else besides the two witnesses, Enoch & Elijah, during the great tribulation can be that vessels unto honor in His House) BUT he is still son for why he will return and there will be a celebration because they testify to the power of God in salvation for all those that believe even in His name..

======================

2 Timothy 2:12 "If (conditional word) we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:"

Those that quit believing (denying God, refuse to suffer for their belief) will be denied by God. (Also Matthew 10:33)

2 Timothy 2:13 "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."

Those that are faithless, have lack of trust, lack of fidelity toward God will be lost. The fact God "abides faithful and cannot deny Himself", He cannot lie and go against His own word and promises means God will NOT treat the faithless as they were still faithful. As one person aptly put it, God "cannot act as though faithfulness and faithlessness were one and the same thing." (Spence). God will be faithful to Himself, His words and promises and judge the faithless to be lost.

"Those who have understood these words as containing soothing, comforting voices for the sinner, for the faithless Christian who has left his first love, are gravely mistaken. The passage is one of distinct severity—may even be termed one of the sternest in the Book of Life; for it tells how it is impossible even for the pitiful Redeemer to forgive in the future life. “He cannot deny Himself”—cannot treat the faithless as though he were faithful—cannot act as though faithfulness and faithlessness were one and the same thing. The Christian teacher, such as Timothy, and the members of his flock likewise, must remember that, sure and certain as are the promises of glory and happiness to those who love the Lord and try to live His life, so surely will fall the chastisement on all who are faithless and untrue." Ellicott

2 Timothy 2:13 and 2 Timothy 2:18-21 is why former believers are still called to depart from iniquity to avoid becoming a vessel unto dishonor forever in His House. That is why God is wiping the tears from the eyes of those coming out of the great tribulation to get them pass that loss of the firstfruits of the resurrection.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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To believe is the result of the Father giving that person to the Son. To err and have the faith overthrown is regardless because the foundation remains as well as His seal for why even former believers are still called to depart from iniquity to be that vessel unto honor in His House.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.



You overlook the cause and effect for when a person believes and that he has eternal life. The fact that he believes not, He still abides is proof he has eternal life. You cannot lose the seal nor remove that foundation that Christ as laid. You cannot become unsaved, but again, at risk of being disqualified from being received by the Bridegroom as a vessel unto ho or in His House thus left behind to become vessels unto dishonor in His House. This is where the vessels unto dishonor comes from that did not depart from iniquity and thus not of the firstfruits of the resurrection for why they are to be resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels of wood and earth for why they are still in His House.

So like the prodigal son, he gave up his inheritance for wild living and cannot get it back ( once that door is shut for the Marriage Supper, nobody else besides the two witnesses, Enoch & Elijah, during the great tribulation can be that vessels unto honor in His House) BUT he is still son for why he will return and there will be a celebration because they testify to the power of God in salvation for all those that believe even in His name..



2 Timothy 2:13 and 2 Timothy 2:18-21 is why former believers are still called to depart from iniquity to avoid becoming a vessel unto dishonor forever in His House. That is why God is wiping the tears from the eyes of those coming out of the great tribulation to get them pass that loss of the firstfruits of the resurrection.


1) you overlook the present tense verb "believeth" in many verses as John 3:16; John 3:36; John 5:24 among others. From John 3:16, for example, combining the present tense with the subjunctive mood shows the believing must be sustained, ongoing in order to not perish. Those that believe not should perish. John 3:18 unbelief is a condemned state, not a saved state. Nowhere did God ever promise to save the unbeliever therefore God cannot be faithful to a promise He never made. Unbelief is a sin, disobedience, unrighteousness and God, Who cannot lie, promised to punish the disobedient with flaming fire for eternity.

2) the context leading up to 2 Timothy 2:13 says:
11 "It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:"
12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:"
13 "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."

Paul is writing to believers and in both verses uses the conditional word "if" showing being saved is CONDITIONAL upon one being dead with Christ and enduring. The "if" in verse 13 shows it is possible for the believers, to whom Paul is writing, can change their position and become an apostate where they are not enduring and are denying God. Not enduring/not believing = not reigning with God for God has promised to deny those who deny Him.


those that are dead>>>>>>God promised they shall live with Christ
those that endure>>>>>>>God promised they shall reign with Him
those that deny Him>>>>>God promised He will deny them

Nowhere at all has God promised the unbeliever that he will live with Christ or the unbeliever will reign with Him nor did God promise He would never deny the unbeliever.

verse 13 if we (those who are now believers) believe not (change their position and turn from God in unbelief) God abides faithful (faithful to Himself, faithful to His words/promises and not faithful to the unbeliever) He cannot deny Himself (God cannot go against what He has said/promised). Again, God never said/promised He would unconditionally save the unbeliever no matter what.
 

Enow

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1) you overlook the present tense verb "believeth" in many verses as John 3:16; John 3:36; John 5:24 among others. From John 3:16, for example, combining the present tense with the subjunctive mood shows the believing must be sustained, ongoing in order to not perish. Those that believe not should perish. John 3:18 unbelief is a condemned state, not a saved state. Nowhere did God ever promise to save the unbeliever therefore God cannot be faithful to a promise He never made. Unbelief is a sin, disobedience, unrighteousness and God, Who cannot lie, promised to punish the disobedient with flaming fire for eternity.

2) the context leading up to 2 Timothy 2:13 says:
11 "It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:"
12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:"
13 "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."

Paul is writing to believers and in both verses uses the conditional word "if" showing being saved is CONDITIONAL upon one being dead with Christ and enduring. The "if" in verse 13 shows it is possible for the believers, to whom Paul is writing, can change their position and become an apostate where they are not enduring and are denying God. Not enduring/not believing = not reigning with God for God has promised to deny those who deny Him.


those that are dead>>>>>>God promised they shall live with Christ
those that endure>>>>>>>God promised they shall reign with Him
those that deny Him>>>>>God promised He will deny them

Nowhere at all has God promised the unbeliever that he will live with Christ or the unbeliever will reign with Him nor did God promise He would never deny the unbeliever.

verse 13 if we (those who are now believers) believe not (change their position and turn from God in unbelief) God abides faithful (faithful to Himself, faithful to His words/promises and not faithful to the unbeliever) He cannot deny Himself (God cannot go against what He has said/promised). Again, God never said/promised He would unconditionally save the unbeliever no matter what.

Do not confuse unbelievers with former believers. Unbelievers, as in they never had believed in Jesus Christ, are not saved. They have no foundation laid by Jesus Christ nor the seal of adoption.

Former believers have been saved but err from the truth and had their faith overthrown, but "nevertheless" is why they are still called to depart from iniquity so they can be received as vessels unto honor in His House rather than as vessels unto dishonor in His House.

To reprove your application of scripture as if believes can lose the Holy Spirit, you need to see what happens when a believer is saved.

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

We are new creature in Christ Jesus for why we are always Spirit-filled since we are in this body of death still is why we shall be held accountable for what we sow towards; the works of the flesh or the fruits of the Spirit; hence what we build on that foundation shall be judged.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Those who defile the temple of God which is our physical body, will incur death unless they repent before the Bridegroom comes, but the spirit is still saved as verse 15 testify.

1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ....15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

We see an example of this coming judgment on an unrepenting church for why they were disqualified into being left behind to become vessels unto dishonor in His House.

Revelations 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Do not confuse unbelievers with former believers. Unbelievers, as in they never had believed in Jesus Christ, are not saved. They have no foundation laid by Jesus Christ nor the seal of adoption.

Former believers have been saved but err from the truth and had their faith overthrown, but "nevertheless" is why they are still called to depart from iniquity so they can be received as vessels unto honor in His House rather than as vessels unto dishonor in His House.

To reprove your application of scripture as if believes can lose the Holy Spirit, you need to see what happens when a believer is saved.

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

We are new creature in Christ Jesus for why we are always Spirit-filled since we are in this body of death still is why we shall be held accountable for what we sow towards; the works of the flesh or the fruits of the Spirit; hence what we build on that foundation shall be judged.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Those who defile the temple of God which is our physical body, will incur death unless they repent before the Bridegroom comes, but the spirit is still saved as verse 15 testify.

1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ....15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

We see an example of this coming judgment on an unrepenting church for why they were disqualified into being left behind to become vessels unto dishonor in His House.

Revelations 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

The Bible does not teach ANY unbeliever will be saved whether that person has never believed or was once a believer but later turned from God and now denies God.

In 1 Cor 3, Paul is making a metaphorical comparison between building a building and building the church. To build a building one lays a foundation and builds upon that foundation and the building will only be as strong as the materials used to build it (wood hay stubble, gold, silver, precious stones). Likewise, in Corinth Paul "built" the church by laying the foundation (making the initial converts) and other came behind and built upon that foundation by working to make more converts and the church will only be as strong as the faith of those converts. For on judgment day "every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is." 1 Corinthians 3:13. The "work" in this verse refers to converts Paul and others made in order to "build" the church. Paul refers to his Corinthian converts as his "work" 1 Corinthians 9:1. On judgment day Paul's work (converts) will be judged and those converts that abide (remained faithful) Paul will receive a reward. But for those work (converts) that are burned (lost) Paul will suffer a sense of loss (Galatians 4:11) over those converts but Paul himself shall be saved as long as he remained faithful. 1 Corinthians 9:27 Paul had to be careful himself lest he also be reprobate (adokimos),


OSAS and Two Misused Passages

Above is a link to a thread I started back in 2018 on two scriptures misused by eternal securists (See my post #1). Some eternal securists try and use 1 Cor 3 as proof the "fallen Christian" will be saved anyway just his works will be burned while other eternal securists tried to use 1 John 2:19 that the 'fallen Christian" was never really saved to begin with. MAJOR contradiction made between the 'interpretation' of these two verses.

Your position is that the "fallen Christian" will be saved anyway just his works will be burned per your 'interpretation of 1 Cor 3. So those eternal securists who use 1 John 2:19 to say they were "never really saved" are wrong? 1 John 2:19 actually does then show a Christian can go out and become lost?
 

Enow

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The Bible does not teach ANY unbeliever will be saved whether that person has never believed or was once a believer but later turned from God and now denies God.

Again, do not confuse unbelievers that never had believed in Him with former believers that had. The Bible does testify of former believers as still saved because He still abides in them.

2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Paul gave an example of some former believers that has erred from the truth and had their faith overthrown, yet nevertheless that foundation still remains along with that seal of adoption for why even former believers are called to depart from iniquity or risk being left behind as denied to become vessels unto dishonor in His House for not departing from iniquity before the Bridegroom had come.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.


In 1 Cor 3, Paul is making a metaphorical comparison between building a building and building the church. To build a building one lays a foundation and builds upon that foundation and the building will only be as strong as the materials used to build it (wood hay stubble, gold, silver, precious stones). Likewise, in Corinth Paul "built" the church by laying the foundation (making the initial converts) and other came behind and built upon that foundation by working to make more converts and the church will only be as strong as the faith of those converts. For on judgment day "every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is." 1 Corinthians 3:13. The "work" in this verse refers to converts Paul and others made in order to "build" the church. Paul refers to his Corinthian converts as his "work" 1 Corinthians 9:1. On judgment day Paul's work (converts) will be judged and those converts that abide (remained faithful) Paul will receive a reward. But for those work (converts) that are burned (lost) Paul will suffer a sense of loss (Galatians 4:11) over those converts but Paul himself shall be saved as long as he remained faithful. 1 Corinthians 9:27 Paul had to be careful himself lest he also be reprobate (adokimos),


OSAS and Two Misused Passages

Above is a link to a thread I started back in 2018 on two scriptures misused by eternal securists (See my post #1). Some eternal securists try and use 1 Cor 3 as proof the "fallen Christian" will be saved anyway just his works will be burned while other eternal securists tried to use 1 John 2:19 that the 'fallen Christian" was never really saved to begin with. MAJOR contradiction made between the 'interpretation' of these two verses.

Your position is that the "fallen Christian" will be saved anyway just his works will be burned per your 'interpretation of 1 Cor 3. So those eternal securists who use 1 John 2:19 to say they were "never really saved" are wrong? 1 John 2:19 actually does then show a Christian can go out and become lost?

If you refer to men to teach you that OSAS is false, then that is not the same to relying on the Good Shepherd to teach you the truth in His words in discerning the overall picture of the kingdom of heaven.

1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.... 26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

So ask Jesus today to help you set aside everything taught to you by men and read His words with His help for the truth about OSAS but running that race in being His disciples is not abut salvation, but obtaining the eternal glory that comes with our salvation and that is to be received by Him as that vessel unto honor in His House by looking to Him, the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin to obtain that.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Again, do not confuse unbelievers that never had believed in Him with former believers that had. The Bible does testify of former believers as still saved because He still abides in them.

2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Paul gave an example of some former believers that has erred from the truth and had their faith overthrown, yet nevertheless that foundation still remains along with that seal of adoption for why even former believers are called to depart from iniquity or risk being left behind as denied to become vessels unto dishonor in His House for not departing from iniquity before the Bridegroom had come.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.




If you refer to men to teach you that OSAS is false, then that is not the same to relying on the Good Shepherd to teach you the truth in His words in discerning the overall picture of the kingdom of heaven.

1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.... 26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

So ask Jesus today to help you set aside everything taught to you by men and read His words with His help for the truth about OSAS but running that race in being His disciples is not abut salvation, but obtaining the eternal glory that comes with our salvation and that is to be received by Him as that vessel unto honor in His House by looking to Him, the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin to obtain that.

The Bible, the Holy Spirit's written word, does not teach FORMER believers (non-believers) are saved unconditionally apart from faith. No one is saved unconditionally. This is further proof the Holy Spirit does not speak to men today apart from His word for men today contradict the Holy Spirit's written word with their theological bias.

2 Timothy2:11 does NOT say "God is faithful to unbelievers and therefore will save the former believers", that idea is being read into the verse.

2 Timothy 2:18 how does "foundation of God standeth sure" ever come mean "God will save former believers"? Again, ideas are being read into the verse while many verses are being overlooked as the verses that show one must maintain a present tense ongoing belief or be lost (John 3:16) unbelief is a condemned state not a saved one (John 3:18) that faith gives access to grace (Romans 5:2) while faithless does not, one is justified by faith (Romans 5:1) while faithlessness does not justify, unbelief puts one apart from God (Hebrews 3:12) and separation from God is spiritual death (Isaiah 59:1-2;, wages of sin (as unbelief) is death (Romans 6:23) not salvation.
 

Enow

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The Bible, the Holy Spirit's written word, does not teach FORMER believers (non-believers) are saved unconditionally apart from faith. No one is saved unconditionally. This is further proof the Holy Spirit does not speak to men today apart from His word for men today contradict the Holy Spirit's written word with their theological bias.

2 Timothy2:11 does NOT say "God is faithful to unbelievers and therefore will save the former believers", that idea is being read into the verse.

2 Timothy 2:18 how does "foundation of God standeth sure" ever come mean "God will save former believers"? Again, ideas are being read into the verse while many verses are being overlooked as the verses that show one must maintain a present tense ongoing belief or be lost (John 3:16) unbelief is a condemned state not a saved one (John 3:18) that faith gives access to grace (Romans 5:2) while faithless does not, one is justified by faith (Romans 5:1) while faithlessness does not justify, unbelief puts one apart from God (Hebrews 3:12) and separation from God is spiritual death (Isaiah 59:1-2;, wages of sin (as unbelief) is death (Romans 6:23) not salvation.

Thanks to Jesus, I can read what has been plainly written for why "nevertheless" in verse 19 was applied for in 2 Timothy 2:18-21.

So maybe you need to ask Him why Paul used "nevertheless" to mean.