Do we even have the correct definition of "saved?"

prism · Feb 20, 2020

bbyrd009 said:
do i believe you are saved? Well, lets just say that imo your odds went down a lot as soon as you started professing that. I believe i have a hope--likely a small hope--of salvation, though, if you meant do i believe that personally

few there are who find it

Yes, I meant you personally.
Odds of our salvation don't go down. As long as Jesus is reigning, His promises are sure.
Maybe you have a small hope because you have a small god or because you are putting your trust in man that cleverly disguises themselves as a god.

Ezra · Feb 20, 2020

Episkopos said:
You mean protestants

why do we need all the name tags ? a person is either saved/born again or they are not

Ezra · Feb 20, 2020

Enow said:
I can call Him my Saviour because I am saved. Can you?

yes sir i surely can BTW great song

ScottA · Feb 20, 2020

BreadOfLife said:
Salvation is a process – not a one-time event.

That is only how it is perceived by the fallen.

God, on the other hand, "is the same yesterday, today, and forever"; and therefore from His perspective "I am" saved, or I am not saved. He is all-knowing, and just because we are not all-knowing during these times of our coming out of darkness, does not mean that those are the terms of salvation. They are not. Salvation is not on men's terms, but on God's.

prism · Feb 20, 2020

bbyrd009 said:
If someone would just tell me that they know they are saved, then i could be a lot surer

I did. Why would that make you surer? God's Word is the surer thing.

Episkopos · Feb 20, 2020

ScottA said:
No...that is only true for those who have not yet passed from death to life, those who have not been born again of the spirit of God, and those who are not NOW living in Christ and He in them.

But those are not the saved. Those are the seekers, the followers, the hopeful, those not fully in, and those found wanting.

On the contrary, one who is actually save has nowhere to go back to, for they have passed on. They are the living.

To think that way is a doctrinal position. No one knows what the Lord will judge a person to be. That's the mystery of God's ways. No one knows but God. Judge nothing before the time. Run the race to win...and stay faithful till the end.

And if you maintain some humility...that's a good thing!

We humans have an endless capacity to get things wrong...to judge too quickly and assume a lot.

So we don't need to claim great things for ourselves. That goes against humility in any regard...and it causes others to stumble...who also need to claim something for themselves. And this just makes the judgment harder for ourselves. We will be judged as we speak and as we judge.

Didn't Jesus say to say...we are but unprofitable servants?

Where is that kind of wisdom in todays' very errant assemblies?

Episkopos · Feb 20, 2020

ScottA said:
That is only how it is perceived by the fallen.

God, on the other hand, "is the same yesterday, today, and forever"; and therefore from His perspective "I am" saved, or I am not saved. He is all-knowing, and just because we are not all-knowing during these times of our coming out of darkness, does not mean that those are the terms of salvation. They are not. Salvation is not on men's terms, but on God's.

And that is why we leave the judgment to God. As Paul said...I don't judge myself.

So it is human pride that needs to say "I am saved" no matter what I do. I'm special.

salvation is conditional...and we are still running in the race. How many are sure they are going to win a race or competition and end up disqualified? Pride goes before a fall. And we don't know the standard by which we will be held to. We can presume that grace means we will be treated with preference. But the truth is very different. To whom much is given MORE is required. So we should fear. As it is written.

amadeus · Feb 20, 2020

Episkopos said:
You mean protestants. And being a protestant means you can judge others as not as saved as you. I know what humans do with religious ideologies. I study history.

I think your reasoning is backwards...I think protestants will fare worse because they justify themselves. But a Pharisee doesn't see himself.

"The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican." Luke 18:11

Episkopos · Feb 20, 2020

Why can't they who claim to be born again retain some humility? By not doing so it brings shame on the Lord. Why claim something for yourself? Claim the goodness of God....but not your own place in that goodness. Look instead for the good of others. Identify with the weakness in others...while clinging to the power of God. Don't be puffed up or high minded....but fear. All you have received comes from God. The Jews before us took many things for granted...but we can learn to remain small...seeing our unworthiness.

The irony is that they who have walked in the power of Christ KNOW it isn't them ...so they make no claim for themselves. But they who have experienced little or nothing don't know how to leave off from becoming high minded in their own minds.

We are not to esteem ourselves higher than we ought.

But this is very unpopular...humility..and this should not be so. We have become the opposite of what it means to be Christ-like.

amadeus · Feb 20, 2020

Episkopos said:
Why can't they who claim to be born again retain some humility? By not doing so it brings shame on the Lord. Why claim something for yourself? Claim the goodness of God....but not your own place in that goodness. Look instead for the good of others. Identify with the weakness in others...while clinging to the power of God. Don't be puffed up or high minded....but fear. All you have received comes from God. The Jews before us took many things for granted...but we can learn to remain small...seeing our unworthiness.

The irony is that they who have walked in the power of Christ KNOW it isn't them ...so they make no claim for themselves. But they who have experienced little or nothing don't know how to leave off from becoming high minded in their own minds.

We are not to esteem ourselves higher than we ought.

But this is very unpopular...humility..and this should not be so. We have become the opposite of what it means to be Christ-like.

"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves." Phil 2:3

BreadOfLife · Feb 20, 2020

bbyrd009 said:
No one has ever gone up to heaven but He Who came down from it, the Son of Man
There is only One Immortal, Who dwells in unapproachable light
...you and your sons will be here with me
?

And that has absolutely NOTHING to do with what we are talking about.

At least you're consistent . . .

Episkopos · Feb 20, 2020

amadeus said:
"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves." Phil 2:3

I just find that the opposite of this is being presented. Everyone is esteeming himself higher than everyone. I have heard some say.."no one is higher than me because I am seated in heaven with Christ"! Wow...talk about getting things exactly wrong. Yet I'm sure many here would agree with that statement.

BreadOfLife · Feb 20, 2020

ScottA said:
That is only how it is perceived by the fallen.

God, on the other hand, "is the same yesterday, today, and forever"; and therefore from His perspective "I am" saved, or I am not saved. He is all-knowing, and just because we are not all-knowing during these times of our coming out of darkness, does not mean that those are the terms of salvation. They are not. Salvation is not on men's terms, but on God's.

And the verses I provided ARE the very WORD of God Himself.

His word trumps YOUR perversions . . .

Episkopos · Feb 20, 2020

ScottA said:
Salvation is not on men's terms, but on God's.

And also on God's approval or rejection. Many will be rejected that believe they are saved. There will be weeping and anger.

ScottA · Feb 20, 2020

Episkopos said:
To think that way is a doctrinal position. No one knows what the Lord will judge a person to be. That's the mystery of God's ways. No one knows but God. Judge nothing before the time. Run the race to win...and stay faithful till the end.

And if you maintain some humility...that's a good thing!

We humans have an endless capacity to get things wrong...to judge too quickly and assume a lot.

So we don't need to claim great things for ourselves. That goes against humility in any regard...and it causes others to stumble...who also need to claim something for themselves. And this just makes the judgment harder for ourselves. We will be judged as we speak and as we judge.

Didn't Jesus say to say...we are but unprofitable servants?

Where is that kind of wisdom in todays' very errant assemblies?

No...again.

It is the hope of those who have not passed from death to life, that those who have and by Christ the first fruits, are the confirmation of their faith, the things hoped for. But it is not what those who have not passed from death to life as yet who are qualified to say.

On the contrary, those who have passed from death to life, are His witnesses according to the scriptures, that those who have hope are assured "by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony"...which is the testimony of those who, like Christ, have passed from death to life...already.

amadeus · Feb 20, 2020

Episkopos said:
I just find that the opposite of this is being presented. Everyone is esteeming himself higher than everyone. I have heard some say.."no one is higher than me because I am seated in heaven with Christ"! Wow...talk about getting things exactly wrong. Yet I'm sure many here would agree with that statement.

Even so!
Whose feet are we washing?

"Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you." John 13:13-15

ScottA · Feb 20, 2020

Episkopos said:
And that is why we leave the judgment to God. As Paul said...I don't judge myself.

So it is human pride that needs to say "I am saved" no matter what I do. I'm special.

salvation is conditional...and we are still running in the race. How many are sure they are going to win a race or competition and end up disqualified? Pride goes before a fall. And we don't know the standard by which we will be held to. We can presume that grace means we will be treated with preference. But the truth is very different. To whom much is given MORE is required. So we should fear. As it is written.

No...we can know, and we who have passed from death to life, do know. Just as Jesus said, "we know of what we speak." But those who do not know only speak from that empty reservoir: They do not even know what they do not know.

And passages like "running the race" are not speaking of when "It is finished." But...when "It is finished", we are right to say so--just as Christ did...that is our witness; and that witness is to be the hope of those who follow, and should not be mocked. To mock those who follow Christ in the very things He Himself did, is to mock Christ.

Was Christ "prideful" to say "It is finished?" No! Nor is it pride that we should tell the same truth. But it is against (anti) Christ to speak against those who do. You do it to Him.

Ezra · Feb 20, 2020

ScottA said:
No...we can know, and we who have passed from death to life,

amen 1 john 5:13

ScottA · Feb 20, 2020

BreadOfLife said:
And the verses I provided ARE the very WORD of God Himself.

His word trumps YOUR perversions . . .

You can quote the words, but you do not know what you are talking about. Even the demons can do as much.

One Light broken down into the prism of light and darkness making up the truth of this fallen world, is indeed true when describing the evil times of this world...and that would-be "process." Nonetheless, it is One Light. But you speak of one part only and of the darkness. With you and with the world, there is a shadow of turning that you claim is the truth from God. It is not, but is only the truth of the fallen world. With God there is no such shadow of turning, no division of light by darkness, and no "process." You speak only of the world, not of God.

BreadOfLife · Feb 20, 2020

ScottA said:
You can quote the words, but you do not know what you are talking about. Even the demons can do as much.

One Light broken down into the prism of light and darkness making up the truth of this fallen world, is indeed true when describing the evil times of this world...and that would-be "process." Nonetheless, it is One Light. But you speak of one part only and of the darkness. With you and with the world, there is a shadow of turning that you claim is the truth from God. It is not, but is only the truth of the fallen world. With God there is no such shadow of turning, no division of light by darkness, and no "process." You speak only of the world, not of God.

And once again - it's mot ME who deems that salvation is a process - it's the Word of God.

As I educated you earlier - the Scriptures tell us that with the initial gift of grace to believe - we are "saved" - in a sense (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8).
If we were to drop dead right there - we would probably be saved.

HOWEVER, because most of us don't drop dead after coming to Christ - we must cooperate with God's grace throughout our lifetime (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14). This is the process of sanctification. during this process, we struggle with sin and rely on God.

When we finally DO die after having endured in faith to the end - we are saved - fully sanctified (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).

Do we even have the correct definition of "saved?"

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