Why do we need priests?

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Philip James

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And your assertion that it is not a lie proves nothing

Indeed, so I will believe Jesus:

Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you,

for this is my blood of the covenant
, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.


You, of course, are free to do as you wish..

Peace be with you!
 

marksman

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Indeed, so I will believe Jesus:

Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you,

for this is my blood of the covenant
, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.


You, of course, are free to do as you wish..

Peace be with you!

And you are free to answer my question which you refuse to do so. That tells me you cannot answer it because what you claim is rubbish.
 

BreadOfLife

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One. Of course when you have dedicated your life to studying scripture with degrees to reward your hard work, and teaching in Bible College, and pastoring churches, you can't but fail to be a cherry picker. After all, studying scripture in the original greek as I have done makes you a moron and incapable of knowing the truth. The fact is only Catholics know the truth so we will have to bow to their superior knowledge and ignore everything the scripture teaches and the truth that the Holy Spirit leads us into.

Two. Complete balderdash.

Three. There is the problem. I do know what it means for the simple reason that when I study anything I go over it again and again and again and again and again and I consult people who know even more than I do and I read book after book after book after book on the subject matter so, at the end of the day, I leave no stone unturned to get at the truth. But I guess that is not enough for you. Until I bow the knee to Catholic doctrine and interpretation I don't know anything. I am only a protestant ignoramus who has the audacity to suggest he is not still in kindergarten.

Have a nice catholic day and hope that you don't find it too hard to wave to me whilst you are in purgatory and I enjoy the spoils of heaven.
That's funny - because your claim (in RED) is the very SAME claim that EVERY Protestant Pastor in the world makes.
WHY, then, do you ALL come to different conclusions??
The answer is that you have ALL strayed from Christ's Church, which is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim. 3:15).

If you honestly believe that Jesus forbade us to call anybody "Father" or "Teacher" - you have perverted His Words and you ARE ignorant of the truth.
As I already showed you - from Scripture - Christ Himself, along with Paul and Stephen are ALL guilty of this.
 
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Earburner

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2 Cor. 5[20] Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

as though God did beseech you by us lends itself to the notion of apostolic succession. "us" can only mean the Apostles, and the "you" is in reference to those trained as bishops by "us". 2 Cor. 5:18 Nowhere in scripture does the common priesthood have the ministry of reconciliation. That function belongs to the ministerial priesthood. Anointing of the Sick is another function belonging to the ministerial priesthood. It means the same thing as "elder".

The Latin phrase: "Alter Christus" means the same thing as we pray you in Christ's stead; a title reserved for the ministerial priesthood. We are all priests but we don't have the same ministerial functions as a highly trained bishop, and by extension, the Office of the Ministerial Priesthood.
To most of what you say, I agree as it pertains to the body of Christ, His church.
However, to this you said: "Nowhere in scripture does the common priesthood have the ministry of reconciliation.", I strongly disagree.
I, as a born again Christian, as the like of others,
do have the ability in Christ, through His Holy Spirit to lead others to Christ directly!
Whether that be by preaching, teaching or just plain open discussion about Christ, should anyone ask me how they may be saved from eternal death and destruction, I am fully equipped in Him, to share the gospel of His Reconciliation,
In that moment, I am ordained by Him, to lead them for their decision of repentance towards God through Jesus, unto the recieving of Him through faith, as Him being their only Savior.
 

Earburner

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That's funny - because your claim (in RED) is the very SAME claim that EVERY Protestant Pastor in the world makes.
WHY, then, do you ALL come to different conclusions??
The answer is that you have ALL strayed from Christ's Church, which is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim. 3:15).

If you honestly believe that Jesus forbade us to call anybody "Father" or "Teacher" - you have perverted His Words and you ARE ignorant of the truth.
As I already showed you - from Scripture - Christ Himself, along with Paul and Stephen are ALL guilty of this.
Its not that Protestants have strayed, but rather Christ, who alone is the Head of His church, that made it to be so. HE raised up those He chose (M. Luther, J. Wesley, G. Whitefield, B. Graham etc.) for the work of keeping His people to be "free indeed" from the bondage of false doctrines, that stifle and quench the work of His Salvation, through His Holy Spirit.

Most Protestants understand the truth that you have explained. However, the mere fact that the RCC does allow for Priests, Reverands and Bishops to be called "Father", clearly supports why there are the Protestant churches, enabled through His Holy Spirit.
 

BreadOfLife

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Its not that Protestants have strayed, but rather Christ, who alone is the Head of His church, that made it to be so. HE raised up those He chose (M. Luther, J. Wesley, G. Whitefield, B. Graham etc.) for the work of keeping His people to be "free indeed" from the bondage of false doctrines, that stifle and quench the work of His Salvation, through His Holy Spirit.

Most Protestants understand the truth that you have explained. However, the mere fact that the RCC does allow for Priests, Reverands and Bishops to be called "Father", clearly supports why there are the Protestant churches, enabled through His Holy Spirit.
Soooo, who is the guy who sired you??
Your FATHER.

Who is the lady who showed you how to spell in the 2nd grade?
Your TEACHER.

Jesus wasn't forbidding us to call people Father or Teacher.
The prohibition is to consider them Fathers and Teachers ABOVE our Father and Teacher in Heaven.

ALWAYS consider the CONTEXT of who is being spoken about.
In this case - it was the Scribes and Pharisees who placed themselves ABOVE all.

This isn't rocket science, people . . .
 
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Earburner

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Soooo, who is the guy who sired you??
Your FATHER.

Who is the lady who showed you how to spell in the 2nd grade?
Your TEACHER.

Jesus wasn't forbidding us to call people Father or Teacher.
The prohibition is to consider them Fathers and Teachers ABOVE our Father and Teacher in Heaven.

ALWAYS consider the CONTEXT of who is being spoken about.
In this case - it was the Scribes and Pharisees who placed themselves ABOVE all.

This isn't rocket science, people . . .
Its easy to understand the term "the early fathers" of the beginning of the church age. It is by them that Christ's church was shown forth as a reality, being separate from the operations of the customs and traditions of Jewish Synagogues.
However, its not that no one has "fathers" in the flesh, of which we do acknoweldge them as our earthly fathers, its rather that we shouldn't call anyone a "father" when it comes to following Christ through His Holy Spirit.
 

BreadOfLife

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Its easy to understand the term "the early fathers" of the beginning of the church age. It is by them that Christ's church was shown forth as a reality, being separate from the operations of the customs and traditions of Jewish Synagogues.
However, its not that no one has "fathers" in the flesh, of which we do acknoweldge them as our earthly fathers, its rather that we shouldn't call anyone a "father" when it comes to following Christ through His Holy Spirit.
False.

Paul referred to HIMSELF as a "Father" to the Corinthians - in the spiritual sense (1 Cor. 4:14-15).
He referred to HIMSELF as "Teacher" to the Gentiles - again, in the spiritual sense (2 Tim. 1:11).
The Early Church "Fathers" are another perfect example.

Your understanding of Matt. 23:8-9 is as skewed as your understanding of Scriptural context in general.
 
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Earburner

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Soooo, who is the guy who sired you??
Your FATHER.

Who is the lady who showed you how to spell in the 2nd grade?
Your TEACHER.

Jesus wasn't forbidding us to call people Father or Teacher.
The prohibition is to consider them Fathers and Teachers ABOVE our Father and Teacher in Heaven.

ALWAYS consider the CONTEXT of who is being spoken about.
In this case - it was the Scribes and Pharisees who placed themselves ABOVE all.

This isn't rocket science, people . . .
My issue is, why do it in the first place, since in the early church, most people were biblically illiterate, not to mention that the scriptures weren't mass produced, until after the 1600s!
It was quite apparent then, that the RCC was "lording over them" their the authority of religion that
False.

Paul referred to HIMSELF as a "Father" to the Corinthians - in the spiritual sense (1 Cor. 4:14-15).
He referred to HIMSELF as "Teacher" to the Gentiles - again, in the spiritual sense (2 Tim. 1:11).
The Early Church "Fathers" are another perfect example.

Your understanding of Matt. 23:8-9 is as skewed as your understanding of Scriptural context in general.
Paul was one of "the early church fathers". The church in Corinth was one of those early churches!
By the wisdom of the Holy Spirit in/through Paul, were the churches nurtured in God the Father's love.
Paul himself was only the instrumental vessel of instruction by which God nurtured them.
Therefore because God was in him, the nurturing appeared through him as if he was a father.


As I said: Its easy to understand the term "the early church fathers" of the beginning of the church age. It is by them that Christ's church was shown forth as a reality, being separate from the operations of the customs and traditions of Jewish Synagogues.
 

Earburner

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Shall we say that the image of a father wasn't in all the Apostles, in their writings of instruction for the early churches?

The Apostles often used the words "little children" , when addressing the early churches.
Here, have a look at these references:
Galatians 4:19
1 John 2:1-18 and28
1 John 3:7 and 18
1 John 4:4
1 John 5:21
 

BreadOfLife

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My issue is, why do it in the first place, since in the early church, most people were biblically illiterate, not to mention that the scriptures weren't mass produced, until after the 1600s!
It was quite apparent then, that the RCC was "lording over them" their the authority of religion that

Paul was one of "the early church fathers". The church in Corinth was one of those early churches!
By the wisdom of the Holy Spirit in/through Paul, were the churches nurtured in God the Father's love.
Paul himself was only the instrumental vessel of instruction by which God nurtured them.
Therefore because God was in him, the nurturing appeared through him as if he was a father.

As I said: Its easy to understand the term "the early church fathers" of the beginning of the church age. It is by them that Christ's church was shown forth as a reality, being separate from the operations of the customs and traditions of Jewish Synagogues.
Your entire response is a gigantic contradicton.

It'd "wrong" to call somebody "Father" - but it's "okay" for Paul because YOU say so.
It's ALSO "okay" for the ECFs - again, because YOU say so.

But, gosh-darnit - don't call anybody ELSE "Father"!!
Can YOU say, "Hypocrite"??
 

Earburner

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Your entire response is a gigantic contradicton.

It'd "wrong" to call somebody "Father" - but it's "okay" for Paul because YOU say so.
It's ALSO "okay" for the ECFs - again, because YOU say so.

But, gosh-darnit - don't call anybody ELSE "Father"!!
Can YOU say, "Hypocrite"??
When the apostles adressed the early churches as "little children", one should readily pick up on Who it was that was Speaking to them.
In light of that, it is easy to call the apostles as being "the early church fathers", for it was the Holy Spirit who was speaking through them, to the early churches.

So now, since that time, we have church positions/titles of being Priests, Popes, Bishops, Reverends, Pastors and the like, but as to the position/title of "father", it should not be.
 

BreadOfLife

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When the apostles adressed the early churches as "little children", one should readily pick up on Who it was that was Speaking to them.
In light of that, it is easy to call the apostles as being "the early church fathers", for it was the Holy Spirit who was speaking through them, to the early churches.

So now, since that time, we have church positions/titles of being Priests, Popes, Bishops, Reverends, Pastors and the like, but as to the position/title of "father", it should not be.
The Apostles are the Apostles and are not considered to be the "Early Church Fathers."

The ECF's began with the Apostolic Fathers such as Clement of Rome, Polycarp of Smyrna, Ignatius of Antioch and Papias of Hierapolis. These are men who knew the Apostles and/or were actual students of them. Then you had the later Greek Fathers such as Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Justin Martyr, etc.

The period of the Early Church Fathers goes all the way to the 7th century in the Western Church.
So much for your historically and Scripturally bankrupt argument against the use of the term "Father" . . .
 

Enoch111

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If you honestly believe that Jesus forbade us to call anybody "Father" or "Teacher" - you have perverted His Words and you ARE ignorant of the truth.
Jesus did in fact forbid that title and He also gave the reason for that injunction: And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in Heaven.(Mt 23:9)

There is no record of anyone calling Paul or any apostle "Father Paul", or "Father Peter". Paul is metaphorically a spiritual father to those whom he led to Christ and discipled. And surely Paul would be the first to tell others to obey the commands of Christ and not call him "father".

The Catholic practice of (1) ordaining a human priesthood with special religious power and (2) having the laity calling them "fathers" is TOTALLY UNSCRIPTURAL. But that is of no consequence to the RCC.
 

Earburner

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The Apostles are the Apostles and are not considered to be the "Early Church Fathers."

The ECF's began with the Apostolic Fathers such as Clement of Rome, Polycarp of Smyrna, Ignatius of Antioch and Papias of Hierapolis. These are men who knew the Apostles and/or were actual students of them. Then you had the later Greek Fathers such as Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Justin Martyr, etc.

The period of the Early Church Fathers goes all the way to the 7th century in the Western Church.
So much for your historically and Scripturally bankrupt argument against the use of the term "Father" . . .
"The Apostles are the Apostles and are not considered to be the "Early Church Fathers."
> Says who? THe RCC? How convienent, because they only want to see Peter, and therefore will fabricate it to be so, just so as to establish the progression to the first pope.

So now you are speaking contrary to how the apostles spoke and wrote to the early churches, calling them "little children"?
Men speaking to men, in that manner, does not reveal brotherhood in Christ, but rather fatherhood, who is God speaking through the apostles to the early churches.

I know of those who came after the apostles, so don't count me as ignorant, just because I don't refer to them and their writings.

As for your religious outline of when the early churches and ECFs were, you have skipped alot of detail, only to acknowledge one thing, and that is what the RCC wants to recognize, for the sake of man's ordination of the succession of Popes after Peter.

What God says about the early churches through the apostles, is His inspired words. Anything written by the "Apostolic Fathers" of your description, is not inspired, even though you might want to think that it is.
 

marksman

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That's funny - because your claim (in RED) is the very SAME claim that EVERY Protestant Pastor in the world makes.
WHY, then, do you ALL come to different conclusions??
The answer is that you have ALL strayed from Christ's Church, which is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim. 3:15).

If you honestly believe that Jesus forbade us to call anybody "Father" or "Teacher" - you have perverted His Words and you ARE ignorant of the truth.
As I already showed you - from Scripture - Christ Himself, along with Paul and Stephen are ALL guilty of this.

You are such a silly boy.

I have never used red at any time.

I haven't strayed from anything. Where two or three are gathered together in his name, he is in the midst. It does not say where two or three are gathered together in the name of the catholic church he is in the midst. In fact, the catholic church is not mentioned once in scripture.

If you honestly believe that I am impressed by your none answer, you are much mistaken.

Paul and Stephen never called anyone father.

As for being ignorant of the truth....kettle calling the pot black.
 

Marymog

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You are such a silly boy.

I have never used red at any time.

I haven't strayed from anything. Where two or three are gathered together in his name, he is in the midst. It does not say where two or three are gathered together in the name of the catholic church he is in the midst. In fact, the catholic church is not mentioned once in scripture.

If you honestly believe that I am impressed by your none answer, you are much mistaken.

Paul and Stephen never called anyone father.

As for being ignorant of the truth....kettle calling the pot black.
Hi,

If two Baptist are gathered in His name and two Lutherens are gathered in His name and they both come to a different interpretation about the same passage from Scripture.....which two are right?

Curious Mary
 
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Earburner

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Hi,

If two Baptist are gathered in His name and two Lutherens are gathered in His name and they both come to a different interpretation about the same passage from Scripture.....which two are right?

Curious Mary
The Holy Spirit within them, who is the mind of Christ, but instead they each choose to listen to their OWN mind.
 

BreadOfLife

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Jesus did in fact forbid that title and He also gave the reason for that injunction: And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in Heaven.(Mt 23:9)

There is no record of anyone calling Paul or any apostle "Father Paul", or "Father Peter". Paul is metaphorically a spiritual father to those whom he led to Christ and discipled. And surely Paul would be the first to tell others to obey the commands of Christ and not call him "father".

The Catholic practice of (1) ordaining a human priesthood with special religious power and (2) having the laity calling them "fathers" is TOTALLY UNSCRIPTURAL. But that is of no consequence to the RCC.
Paul and Stephen never called anyone father.
As for being ignorant of the truth....kettle calling the pot black.
Ahhhhh, more ignorant nonsense. from the BOTH of you.

I have already proven this claim wrong several posts
back - and a few times since.

- Jesus said, “Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.” (John 8:56).
- Stephen refers to "our FATHER Abraham," (Acts 7:2).
- Paul speaks of "our FATHER Isaac” (Romans 9:10).
- For I became your FATHER in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15).

- "For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle . . . a TEACHER of the Gentiles in faith and truth" (1 Tim. 2:7).
- "For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and TEACHER" (2 Tim. 1:11).
- "God has appointed in the church first Apostles, second prophets, third TEACHERS" (1 Cor. 12:28).


So, don't tell me that we can't call people "Teacher" or "Father". Jesus forbade these terms for those who place themselves ABOVE our Father and Teacher in Heaven.
In CONTEXT - He was talking about the Scribes and Pharisees who exalt themselves..

Don't you guys ever actually READ the Scriptures??
 

BreadOfLife

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The Holy Spirit within them, who is the mind of Christ, but instead they each choose to listen to their OWN mind.
And THAT'S why we have tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that ALL teach different doctrines - while ALL claiming to have been "led" by the Holy Spirit.

What a mess . . .
 
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