Examine Yourselves

Nancy · Feb 20, 2020

quietthinker said:
Nancy....the Sanctuary system God gave Israel is not understood, in fact it is all but totally dismissed as not relevant, and because it is not understood many Christians are in the dark regarding many scriptural statements. This is a critical error.
God has laid out his Plan of Redemption from start to finish in the Sanctuary system.

If we want to understand the reality in the present time and ahead of us the Sanctuary arrangement needs revisiting. The Sanctuary was presented as a shadow/shadows...Where ever a shadow is a substance exists and the substance involves more than just the sacrifice.

Paul uses Sanctuary terminology to draw our attention to its intention.
Yes, the final sacrifice as depicted by the lamb slain is finished but that is not the end of the sanctuary service. There is a Priest who has yet to perform certain functions connected to the sacrifice. The Priest and his ongoing role is also a shadow of Jesus and his activity in the heavens.

If you want clarity on this make the extra effort and listen to the video presentations (around a dozen or so) posted by ReChoired towards the bottom of page 18 of his thread 'Prophetic Chart from beginning unto the ending, Prophetic studies'.....yes, they are extended yet have much detail which the presenter repeats often because we are so forgetful. It is well worth the time put in.

Hello Quiet!

I see all of the OT a shadow of things to come. As far as "more" to be done by a Priest, would mean that when Jesus said "It is finished" He didn't really mean it. He is our LAST and High Priest forever. His sacrifice made a way to have our sins forgiven, His Resurrection made it possible for His children to live into eternity...eternal life (future eternal, that is). What more does He need to do?? He totally fulfilled the Law because we never could, He opened the lines of communication directly (through Himself) to the throne of God. We do not need a "sanctuary system" because it, along with every OT Law is now obsolete. How does one add to the "finished" work of Christ on the Cross?

Hisman · Feb 20, 2020

Nancy said:
Hello Quiet!

I see all of the OT a shadow of things to come. As far as "more" to be done by a Priest, would mean that when Jesus said "It is finished" He didn't really mean it. He is our LAST and High Priest forever. His sacrifice made a way to have our sins forgiven, His Resurrection made it possible for His children to live into eternity...eternal life (future eternal, that is). What more does He need to do?? He totally fulfilled the Law because we never could, He opened the lines of communication directly (through Himself) to the throne of God. We do not need a "sanctuary system" because it, along with every OT Law is now obsolete. How does one add to the "finished" work of Christ on the Cross?

Thanks excellent word.

quietthinker · Feb 21, 2020

Nancy said:
Hello Quiet!

I see all of the OT a shadow of things to come. As far as "more" to be done by a Priest, would mean that when Jesus said "It is finished" He didn't really mean it.
Yes Jesus meant it totally when he said 'it is finished' but his statement is contextual meaning his role as lamb and sacrifice was finished when he died. His role as High priest was about to begin when he ascended.

He is our LAST and High Priest forever. His sacrifice made a way to have our sins forgiven, His Resurrection made it possible for His children to live into eternity...eternal life (future eternal, that is). What more does He need to do??
John 14:2-3 tells us Jesus has gone to prepare a place for us. What do we suppose he is doing up there now? ...laying bricks and mortar?? cutting a lunch?? no no, he entered the second phase of the Plan of Redemption foreshadowed in the Sanctuary service which as you possibly know consisted of three primary parts, the outer court with the Alter then the Sanctuary (the tabernacle) itself which consisted of two sections, the holy place and the most holy place
These three sections and the services performed in them where types or shadows in detail of the Plan of Redemption

Now as a Priest (not a lamb slain) he entered the first apartment (at his ascension) of the Sanctuary in Heaven as mentioned in Hebrews 8:2-5 the copy of which Moses was instructed to build.
This copy or shadow was God ordained to reveal the extent of the Plan of Redemption to man of which the Alter in the outer court and the sacrifice of the lamb was a part.

He totally fulfilled the Law because we never could, He opened the lines of communication directly (through Himself) to the throne of God. We do not need a "sanctuary system" because it, along with every OT Law is now obsolete. How does one add to the "finished" work of Christ on the Cross?

The Sanctuary here on Earth was given as a type so we could/can understand the Great Mystery of the Plan of Redemption.
Jesus's work for our salvation is anything but finished in total. Only his work as a sacrificial lamb is finished. His work for our Salvation is ongoing till he returns. We are still on a sin polluted Earth and he is in Heaven preparing...it is anything but finished....now what does that mean? This is where the Sanctuary system lets us in on this mystery.

It is in our interest to be familiar with it. It is also far more than can be put into this short reply, so Nancy, do yourself a favour, put aside the time and watch the presentations by Jeremiah Davis...give the man a chance to present the case....do not delay....strike while the iron is hot. You will learn things that will both alarm and surprise you.

Philip James · Feb 21, 2020

Nancy said:
I see that as old testament...and BTW-why do we even have alters in Church's anyhow??

Hello Nancy,

1cor 10:15-21 identifies the 'table of the Lord' as the christian altar, and the Eucharist as the offering that we participate in.

Further, from the very beginning the Church has identified this Eucharistic sacrifice as the fulfullment of Malachi 1:11 .

14:1 And on the Lord's own day gather yourselves together and break bread and give thanks, first confessing your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure.
14:2 And let no man, having his dispute with his fellow, join your assembly until they have been reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be defiled;
14:3 for this sacrifice it is that was spoken of by the Lord;
14:4 {In every place and at every time offer Me a pure sacrifice;
14:5 for I am a great king, saith the Lord and My name is wonderful among the nations.}

Didache (circa 70 ad)

Peace be with you!

Nancy · Feb 21, 2020

marks said:
HI Nancy,

Here's the passage, or one, for reference . . .

1 Corinthians 11
20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
33 Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.
34 And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.

Eating 'this' bread, and drinking 'this' cup shows the Lord's death till he come.

There is the Lord's supper, but these take their own supper.

The complaint is that some fill up, leaving nothing for others. He says to fill your hunger at home, but when you come together, wait for each other.

I'm thinking of this as examining whether you are counting this bread and wine as something special, or just another meal. Much like in Hebrews where those who think they can return to sacrificing animals are treating Jesus' shed blood as no better then the blood of animals.

Is this a remembrance of Jesus, shared with others? Or self satisfaction?

Not discerning the Lord's body . . . not discerning that the bread and wine are the body and the blood? Not discerning that those we are sharing with are His body?

Good topic!

Much love!

Hi Marks,
"The complaint is that some fill up, leaving nothing for others. He says to fill your hunger at home, but when you come together, wait for each other."

This to me say's He is speaking directly to Those who were scarfing all the food and wine before waiting for their brothers and sisters. And, if they cannot control themselves, to eat at their own homes. There obviously was some sort of meal there or, how could these gluttons get all drunk and filled of their bellies without food to eat? And why even suggest they eat at home? You do bring up good points like, "Is this a remembrance of Jesus, shared with others? Or self satisfaction?" <--- this too can fit in with a whole meal being eaten by a few, and hence not discerning the body of whom many were poor and hungry. It seems that that there were just a specific group of Christians who were doing this, and yes, I can see that as: "treating Jesus' shed blood as no better then the blood of animals." They were partaking unworthily.
Not saying I'm correct and you are not. We just see it a bit differently.

marks · Feb 21, 2020

Nancy said:
Hi Marks,
"The complaint is that some fill up, leaving nothing for others. He says to fill your hunger at home, but when you come together, wait for each other."

This to me say's He is speaking directly to Those who were scarfing all the food and wine before waiting for their brothers and sisters. And, if they cannot control themselves, to eat at their own homes. There obviously was some sort of meal there or, how could these gluttons get all drunk and filled of their bellies without food to eat? And why even suggest they eat at home? You do bring up good points like, "Is this a remembrance of Jesus, shared with others? Or self satisfaction?" <--- this too can fit in with a whole meal being eaten by a few, and hence not discerning the body of whom many were poor and hungry. It seems that that there were just a specific group of Christians who were doing this, and yes, I can see that as: "treating Jesus' shed blood as no better then the blood of animals." They were partaking unworthily.
Not saying I'm correct and you are not. We just see it a bit differently.

I was just throwing out some thoughts, really. I think I see this more as you do than about self-inspection to see if we have unforgiven sin.

Like you say, a few eating the meal that was meant to be shared by all.

Much love!

Stan B · Feb 21, 2020

Nancy said:
The final sacrifice is finished?

No, the sacrificial system will continue in the rebuilt Third Temple, under the Old Covenant. The last 8 chapters of Ezekiel provide a very detailed set of rules for sacrifices in the New Temple.

Nancy · Feb 21, 2020

marks said:
I was just throwing out some thoughts, really. I think I see this more as you do than about self-inspection to see if we have unforgiven sin.

Like you say, a few eating the meal that was meant to be shared by all.

Much love!

Yes, throwing out thoughts...and that is in essence what I am doing. Our own thoughts can bring on good convos!

Giuliano · Feb 21, 2020

Nancy said:
"unless we all are in agreement or having love for one another...we shouldn't partake given those times." <---In this case, I don't see much breaking of bread. I find not one person in agreement with each other 100%. Not to mention, Jesus Himself broke bread with Judas...

And what happened to Judas? I would say that Judas made the mistake, not Jesus.

There is peril for people who believe God will forgive their sins without their needing to repent, especially if they partake of Communion unworthily knowing they have stains on their consciences. They are abusing what was is offered to them for the good and trying it into something that justifies what is unholy. They could be treating something precious with contempt.

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

I understand those who return evil for evil and good for good. I commend those who return good for evil. What I cannot tolerate are those people who return evil for good or who want to take something given to them for the good and use it for evil. I cannot say God will forgive it as long as they keep doing it. Those who partake of Communion knowing full well they have guilty consciences are trampling on what is holy to me. Mind now, I'm not talking about "shame" that may be imposed on them by other people over things which may not be sins in fact. I'm talking about people who do unloving things out of selfishness knowing full well they're being selfish and then think Jesus will fix everything for them.

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

When Catholic and Orthodox refuse some people Eucharist, it is not out of spite. It is to prevent them from committing more sin by partaking unworthily. Jesus said not to give bread to the dogs -- I think he meant spiritual dogs. . . .

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

There will always be those who lie in order to partake unworthily; but that's their problem. If someone is scandalously in a state of sin (as Rudy Giuliani was when he was denied Communion), a priest would helping him bring down damnation on himself by allowing him to partake. In most cases, it's not that clear. In most cases, a priest takes people's word for it if he says his conscience is clean.

VictoryinJesus · Feb 21, 2020

Nancy said:
The Corinthians were getting drunk and were gluttons, they got there ahead of many of the poor and hungry. And, I think that is why so many are weak, get sick and or even die.

“Getting drunk and were gluttons” they got there ahead of many of “the poor and hungry”. I always thought that meant the “drunk” ones were the weak and sickly drinking damnation unto themselves. But Could it be those being neglected are the weak and sick...that being the condemnation against the drunkenness. that brothers and sisters perish without, while others “first” consume and devour everything. maybe a good example of this is in the violence of the wild and its nature for the strong pride of the pack to consume and devour while the lame and weak perish. “not discerning the Lord's body” in the distributing to that which lacks: the poor, thirsty and hungry. (1 Corinthians 12:22-2)
As Paul spoke of in those passages of that which he was given of the Lord, he also gave, and how even the same night the Lord was betrayed he broke bread and gave...

Willie T · Feb 21, 2020

VictoryinJesus said:
“Getting drunk and were gluttons” they got there ahead of many of “the poor and hungry”. I always thought that meant the “drunk” ones were the weak and sickly drinking damnation unto themselves. But Could it be those being neglected are the weak and sick...that being the condemnation against the drunkenness. that brothers and sisters perish without, while others “first” consume and devour everything. maybe a good example of this is in the violence of the wild and its nature for the strong pride of the pack to consume and devour while the lame and weak perish. “not discerning the Lord's body” in the distributing to that which lacks: the poor, thirsty and hungry. (1 Corinthians 12:22-2)
As Paul spoke of in those passages of that which he was given of the Lord, he also gave, and how even the same night the Lord was betrayed he broke bread and gave...

That seems to be exactly the way the passage reads. Greed, selfishness and no love for the rest of God's children seem to be the real "ongoing" sins here...…. NOT some incident reflected upon from last week that they might have forgotten to "repent" of.

Willie T · Feb 21, 2020

That word "incident" is important. We seem to want to corral "sin" as specific and isolated incidents... when it is usually a mindset or continual and ongoing heart attitude.

marks · Feb 21, 2020

Willie T said:
That word "incident" is important. We seem to want to corral "sin" as specific and isolated incidents... when it is usually a mindset or continual and ongoing heart attitude.

I think some forget, All that is not of faith is sin.

Do we REALLY want to start keeping track?

Willie T · Feb 21, 2020

"I did a bad thing" seems to be easier to live with, than "My heart needs to be opened up to others more."

marks · Feb 21, 2020

Willie T said:
"I did a bad thing" seems to be easier to live with, than "My heart needs to be opened up to others more."

I think it's like we think we can control our actions but we can't change our heart, not remembering our heart has been changed. If it has been, that is.

Much love!

Nancy · Feb 21, 2020

marks said:
I think it's like we think we can control our actions but we can't change our heart, not remembering our heart has been changed. If it has been, that is.

Much love!

True! Our actions mean nothing without our heart position being in the right place. All for naught otherwise...just "works" of the flesh.

marks · Feb 21, 2020

Nancy said:
True! Our actions mean nothing without our heart position being in the right place. All for naught otherwise...just "works" of the flesh.

Along the same lines,

2 Corinthians 13
5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.

Not . . . examine yourseft, whether ye be obedient.

Whether you be in the faith.

Much love!

Giuliano · Feb 21, 2020

Willie T said:
That seems to be exactly the way the passage reads. Greed, selfishness and no love for the rest of God's children seem to be the real "ongoing" sins here...…. NOT some incident reflected upon from last week that they might have forgotten to "repent" of.

So what would the theory be? If we forget to repent of sins, God also forgets about them . . . unless we do it in church?

Willie T · Feb 21, 2020

Giuliano said:
So what would the theory be? If we forget to repent of sins, God also forgets about them . . . unless we do it in church?

I dunno. You'd have to search out that one in somebody's "Rule Book." I don't own one.

Giuliano · Feb 21, 2020

Nancy said:
Hi Marks,
"The complaint is that some fill up, leaving nothing for others. He says to fill your hunger at home, but when you come together, wait for each other."

This to me say's He is speaking directly to Those who were scarfing all the food and wine before waiting for their brothers and sisters. And, if they cannot control themselves, to eat at their own homes. There obviously was some sort of meal there or, how could these gluttons get all drunk and filled of their bellies without food to eat? And why even suggest they eat at home? You do bring up good points like, "Is this a remembrance of Jesus, shared with others? Or self satisfaction?" <--- this too can fit in with a whole meal being eaten by a few, and hence not discerning the body of whom many were poor and hungry. It seems that that there were just a specific group of Christians who were doing this, and yes, I can see that as: "treating Jesus' shed blood as no better then the blood of animals." They were partaking unworthily.
Not saying I'm correct and you are not. We just see it a bit differently.

Paul have been thinking of how some "ate and drank" at Mount Sinai while gazing and peering disrespectful. It is said that some people "saw" God; but the truth is that they saw something of God but no one really can see God. Their vision was flawed.

It is said by the Jews they deserved to die for their disrespect but God deferred killing them, not wanting to ruin the day for rest of Israel. Nadab and Abihu are named, and my guess they overdid it with the food as well as the wine.

Exodus 24: 1 And he said unto Moses, Come up unto the Lord, thou, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel; and worship ye afar off.
. . . .
9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

Nabab and Elihu likely got drunk again later and got killed. The text itself doesn't say explicitly they got drunk, but notice how the prohibition against priests drinking follows the story. . . .

Leviticus 10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the Lord, which he commanded them not.
2 And there went out fire from the Lord, and devoured them, and they died before the Lord.
. . . .
8 And the Lord spake unto Aaron, saying,
9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
10 And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;

Jewish tradition says the seventy who ate and drank and who peered and gazed got their punishment later:

Numbers 11:1 And when the people complained, it displeased the Lord: and the Lord heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the Lord burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp.

It seems that the seventy disrespectful elders got replaced by another set of seventy; and the passage says:

16 And the Lord said unto Moses, Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom thou knowest to be the elders of the people, and officers over them; and bring them unto the tabernacle of the congregation, that they may stand there with thee.
17 And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.

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