Examine Yourselves

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marks

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11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.
Hi Giuliano,

So then you do not think this was a true statement, that the reality is that they didn't see God?

Much love!
 
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Giuliano

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I dunno. You'd have to search out that one in somebody's "Rule Book." I don't own one.
I believe God forgets our sins if we genuinely repent of them. I'd advise repenting as soon as we realize we messed up and against saying,"I'll try to remember to repent for that later."

Ezekiel 33:14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
 
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Episkopos

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I believe God forgets our sins if we genuinely repent of them. I'd advise repenting as soon as we realize we messed up and against saying,"I'll try to remember to repent for that later."

Ezekiel 33:14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

Agreed. The coming together is about discerning the Body...and seeing to the needs of others. If we are not doing that then we are not discerning the body...but too focused on ourselves. We end up playing bad notes in the eternal symphony. So then the communion meal is about getting in tune with one another AND the Lord. We are doing this in the name of Jesus and declaring His sacrifice and resurrection until He returns.
 
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Giuliano

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Hi Giuliano,

So then you do not think this was a true statement, that the reality is that the didn't see God?

Much love!
No man has ever seen God at any time, so it says.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

They saw something and we could see they saw it was true that God existed, but they did not see God with their eyes. Hagar saw an angel and said she saw God. She saw an angel and angels are parts of God. She was mistaken to believe she "saw God." What is true is that people can see manifestations of God -- and "know" that God is real. In English "see" can mean to view with your eyes or to perceive the truth about something. That's also true in Hebrew and Greek. They saw a manifestation of God that enabled them to "perceive it was true" that God exists; but no one has "seen" God at any time.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Do not be misled by John 6:46 since the Greek word used for "seen" can mean also mean "perceive the truth of."

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

God is not a thing that can be observed. Many times, the prophets are aware that they are seeing something in a vision but also that what they're seeing is actually not God, so they use phrases such as "like unto" or "as it were." They know their vision is valid but also know they aren't actually seeing God.
 
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marks

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They know their vision is valid but also know they aren't actually seeing God.
Ok then. For myself, I don't have an issue with it, and can receive it just as written. I mean, the writer does not say, they thought they saw God, or, they saw a vision of God, just a simple statement. And they even describe what they saw. If they didn't actually see God, were they even there on the mountain? Maybe the entire thing a vision? How would we know?
 

Giuliano

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Ok then. For myself, I don't have an issue with it, and can receive it just as written. I mean, the writer does not say, they thought they saw God, or, they saw a vision of God, just a simple statement. And they even describe what they saw. If they didn't actually see God, were they even there on the mountain? Maybe the entire thing a vision? How would we know?
We need to be able to reconcile that passage with other passages.

I think there was a physical mountain there; and then there was also a spiritual mountain. We see Moses went all the way up, Joshua more than the others, then there were the seventy. The rest were told not to approach -- it is also said they were "under" the mountain -- not "next" to it but "under."

Compare that to Jesus with Peter, James and John. The other nine disciples did not go with them. Were Moses and Elijah really there? I'd say, of course -- but I also wonder if other people would have seen much or how accurately they would have seen things. We're told Moses' face shone and that Jesus was transfigured. I"d say something went just a tiny bit amiss when Moses came back and his face was still shining. That's usually hidden from the ordinary people -- Jesus looked ordinary to other people after he came down from the mountain.

Compare too to Abraham going with Isaac up the mountain. Real mountain? Yes, but I'd also say they went to God's Holy Hill. The two with them (said to be Ishmael and Eliezer of Damascus by Jewish tradition) did not go with them. Now then,did they see a physical ram or a spiritual one? Again I refer to Jewish tradition which says that "ram" had existed before Eden.

Incidentally, I also read "mountain" to mean "spiritual mountain" here:

Matthew 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Matthew 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

Think about that. If people were living on a mountain, wouldn't it be a sin to cast it into the sea? Shouldn't the people have the chance to get off the mountain first? The spiritual mountain would move first. It could take a long time for the physical mountain to follow suit; but eventually it would.

Surely we cannot believe a physical mountain is meant here:

Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Or here -- do you know of any mountain (physical one) where you can view the whole world?

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;


 
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marks

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We need to be able to reconcile that passage with other passages.

I think there was a physical mountain there; and then there was also a spiritual mountain. We see Moses went all the way up, Joshua more than the others, then there were the seventy. The rest were told not to approach -- it is also said they were "under" the mountain -- not "next" to it but "under."

Compare that to Jesus with Peter, James and John. The other nine disciples did not go with them. Were Moses and Elijah really there? I'd say, of course -- but I also wonder if other people would have seen much or how accurately they would have seen things. We're told Moses' face shone and that Jesus was transfigured. I"d say something went just a tiny bit amiss when Moses came back and his face was still shining. That's usually hidden from the ordinary people -- Jesus looked ordinary to other people after he came down from the mountain.

Compare too to Abraham going with Isaac up the mountain. Real mountain? Yes, but I'd also say they went to God's Holy Hill. The two with them (said to be Ishmael and Eliezer of Damascus by Jewish tradition) did not go with them. Now then,did they see a physical ram or a spiritual one? Again I refer to Jewish tradition which says that "ram" had existed before Eden.

Incidentally, I also read "mountain" to mean "spiritual mountain" here:

Matthew 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Matthew 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

Think about that. If people were living on a mountain, wouldn't it be a sin to cast it into the sea? Shouldn't the people have the chance to get off the mountain first? The spiritual mountain would move first. It could take a long time for the physical mountain to follow suit; but eventually it would.

Surely we cannot believe a physical mountain is meant here:

Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Or here -- do you know of any mountain (physical one) where you can view the whole world?

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Good post!

I'd like to give some thought before I reply.

Much love!
 
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marks

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We need to be able to reconcile that passage with other passages.
Agreed!

I think there was a physical mountain there; and then there was also a spiritual mountain. We see Moses went all the way up, Joshua more than the others, then there were the seventy. The rest were told not to approach -- it is also said they were "under" the mountain -- not "next" to it but "under."

Perhaps referring to this part?

Dueteronomy 4
10 Specially the day that thou stoodest before the Lord thy God in Horeb, when the Lord said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.
11 And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness.
12 And the Lord spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.

"ye came near and stood under the mountain" on the day "thou stoodest before the Lord thy God in Horeb."

I understand this as being in the plain below the mountain, rather than underneath the mountain.

Compare that to Jesus with Peter, James and John. The other nine disciples did not go with them. Were Moses and Elijah really there? I'd say, of course -- but I also wonder if other people would have seen much or how accurately they would have seen things. We're told Moses' face shone and that Jesus was transfigured. I"d say something went just a tiny bit amiss when Moses came back and his face was still shining. That's usually hidden from the ordinary people -- Jesus looked ordinary to other people after he came down from the mountain.

I think they went up an actual mountain, as saw what it says they saw.

Moses . . . Paul gives understanding about his shine in 2 Corinthians 3, that his face shown, but faded. In contrast, our glory in Christ increases, not fades.

His was outside, standing in God's presence. But God has shown into our hearts with His glory, and now it works it's way outside, increasing, and not fading.

Compare too to Abraham going with Isaac up the mountain. Real mountain? Yes, but I'd also say they went to God's Holy Hill. The two with them (said to be Ishmael and Eliezer of Damascus by Jewish tradition) did not go with them. Now then,did they see a physical ram or a spiritual one? Again I refer to Jewish tradition which says that "ram" had existed before Eden.

I think that there was a real live ram that bled when it was sacrificed, and burned when it was offered. I think the most likely origin of that ram was that it was born from it's mother some short number of years previous.

Incidentally, I also read "mountain" to mean "spiritual mountain" here:

Matthew 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Matthew 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

Think about that. If people were living on a mountain, wouldn't it be a sin to cast it into the sea? Shouldn't the people have the chance to get off the mountain first? The spiritual mountain would move first. It could take a long time for the physical mountain to follow suit; but eventually it would. [/quote]

I don't know that we choose the mountains! But I like your thinking! Again, I stay simple. Faith can move mountains. Faith can cause a tree to transplant itself into the ocean. Faith can move corporation mountains. Faith can move government mountains. And faith can move giant granite uplifts.

Surely we cannot believe a physical mountain is meant here:

Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,


I that I believe John was seeing a vision, I'd gather that he was not standing on, say, Mount Rushmore, or some other earth location, but maybe, more what I think is that in his vision he was standing on a mountain.

Or here -- do you know of any mountain (physical one) where you can view the whole world?

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them

Curious . . . what would be the difference in having a supernatural viewing of the kingdoms of the world on physical mountain, or spiritual mountain? Might not have Jesus been taken to a high mountain, and show these things?

What would it mean for Jesus to be on a "spiritual mountain", do you mean, a mountain in a vision, like John?

What does it mean to cast a spiritual mountain into the sea? Wouldn't this be metaphor just the same? That is, if the "mountain" is, say, a balloon payment, or a despised weakness, or the hostility of enemies, what have you, it's not that you are tossing the payment schedule into the ocean . . .

Do you know what I mean that I'm asking? What would a spiritual mountain be? Am I on track with what you mean?
 

Nancy

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No, the sacrificial system will continue in the rebuilt Third Temple, under the Old Covenant. The last 8 chapters of Ezekiel provide a very detailed set of rules for sacrifices in the New Temple.

Yes I understand that but, it won't be our awesome God who will take up residence there, :eek:. And it doesn't have anything to do with the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us to be able to realize our sin, to be forgiven and then rising in three days to give us everlasting life. Yes, the Jews will be able to do their animal sacrifices again...for a short while but, I don't see this a a good thing, but I do see it as prophetic.
 
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Giuliano

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Agreed!



Perhaps referring to this part?

Dueteronomy 4
10 Specially the day that thou stoodest before the Lord thy God in Horeb, when the Lord said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.
11 And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness.
12 And the Lord spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.

"ye came near and stood under the mountain" on the day "thou stoodest before the Lord thy God in Horeb."

I understand this as being in the plain below the mountain, rather than underneath the mountain.
Here we read that they (at least most people) saw nothing, not even a similitude. How that does fit with some people "seeing" God? This passage mentions darkness, clouds and thick darkness. The other passage has the seventy seeing God with extreme clearness and with blue underneath.
I think they went up an actual mountain, as saw what it says they saw.
I think they likely went up a physical mountain and also a spiritual one. I note how you use the word "actual" -- are you perhaps thinking that a spiritual mountain isn't an "actual" mountain?

Moses . . . Paul gives understanding about his shine in 2 Corinthians 3, that his face shown, but faded. In contrast, our glory in Christ increases, not fades.
Your take on that passage is quite different from mine. However let me say I say something went a little wrong because Moses did have to wear that veil for a while. That tells me it happened to him in a way he couldn't control. Jesus did not appear that way to others later. That was correct too -- and we also find he did not appear to unbelievers after the resurrection. Some things are better not shown to the general public. Paul's claim in that chapter is extraordinary since he's claiming we can "see" the glory of Jesus as though we were observing it in a mirror. Further this seeing changes us. Is that true? It should be. Elsewhere he says now we see as through a glass darkly but later it will be face to face. John seems clearer to me when he says, "We shall be like him for we shall see him as he is." Let us take that to heart: It would mean we have a flawed picture in our minds of what Jesus is.

His was outside, standing in God's presence. But God has shown into our hearts with His glory, and now it works it's way outside, increasing, and not fading.
What?

I think that there was a real live ram that bled when it was sacrificed, and burned when it was offered. I think the most likely origin of that ram was that it was born from it's mother some short number of years previous.
What about the Lamb being slain from the foundation of the world?

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I also ask where in the Old Testament do you see Jesus suffering?

Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

I ask too if Abraham got a glimpse of that city he was looking for?

Hebrews 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

I don't know that we choose the mountains! But I like your thinking! Again, I stay simple. Faith can move mountains. Faith can cause a tree to transplant itself into the ocean. Faith can move corporation mountains. Faith can move government mountains. And faith can move giant granite uplifts.
I was told once to pray for a mountain to go into the sea. I prayed. There was an earthquake in the physical world, and the physical mountain is still there. The spiritual mountain was cast into the sea. It's a matter of time in my book before the physical mountain goes under the waves.
I that I believe John was seeing a vision, I'd gather that he was not standing on, say, Mount Rushmore, or some other earth location, but maybe, more what I think is that in his vision he was standing on a mountain.
I think it's safe to say he was taken to a spiritual mountain.
Curious . . . what would be the difference in having a supernatural viewing of the kingdoms of the world on physical mountain, or spiritual mountain? Might not have Jesus been taken to a high mountain, and show these things?
No such mountain could possibly exist in the physical world. To me, that's as absurd as believing the "four rivers" in Genesis are four physical rivers. The description says the four rivers share a common source. That tells me they aren't physical rivers. Compare that too to the description of the water of life that proceed from the throne of God. The Holy City is clearly identified with Eden -- both have the Tree of Life too.

What would it mean for Jesus to be on a "spiritual mountain", do you mean, a mountain in a vision, like John?
It would signify to me detachment from the physical or carnal world even if the physical body was still in it.

What does it mean to cast a spiritual mountain into the sea? Wouldn't this be metaphor just the same? That is, if the "mountain" is, say, a balloon payment, or a despised weakness, or the hostility of enemies, what have you, it's not that you are tossing the payment schedule into the ocean . . .

Do you know what I mean that I'm asking? What would a spiritual mountain be? Am I on track with what you mean?
Spiritual space have hills and mountains just as the physical plane does. Some have been established by God. Others are wicked. They emerge from "the sea" just as "dry land" was called forth in Genesis. They emerge first at the soul level first and then the intention is to have the physical world conform to them.

Thus Our Lady of Babylon is said to sit on "seven mountains" in one place and "on the waters" in another.

Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.


Few people here have studied magic; but there is a statement that if you can visualize something vividly, it will become true in the physical world too. That is about 95% true -- and where the magicians fail, they fail to their disaster.

Many things are already true and manifested in Heaven. They remain to be made true and manifested on the earth -- thus we pray, "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven."
 
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Stan B

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Nancy says >> "it won't be our awesome God who will take up residence there"

I am going by Malachi's prophecy:

“Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming,” says the Lord of hosts."

I think that will be Jesus.

Nancy says >> "
Yes, the Jews will be able to do their animal sacrifices again...for a short while but, I don't see this a a good thing, but I do see it as prophetic."

They are still acting under the First Covenant, which has never been terminated. It is an eternal covenant which is still valid.

I tend to think that this is the time when God removes the blindness from Israel, and reveals to them who is really is!

"I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. Zech 12:10

Just my take on this.
 
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Nancy

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Nancy says >> "it won't be our awesome God who will take up residence there"

I am going by Malachi's prophecy:

“Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming,” says the Lord of hosts."

I think that will be Jesus.

Nancy says >> "
Yes, the Jews will be able to do their animal sacrifices again...for a short while but, I don't see this a a good thing, but I do see it as prophetic."

They are still acting under the First Covenant, which has never been terminated. It is an eternal covenant which is still valid.

I tend to think that this is the time when God removes the blindness from Israel, and reveals to them who is really is!

"I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. Zech 12:10

Just my take on this.

When I read Isaiah 66:1 , Matthew 5:34-35 , Acts 7:47,48 and others, I see that no man can build a house, temple or anything with their hands that could contain our Great God. The Earth is His footstool, how could He possibly be boxed into a building of our making? He will always be seated at the right hand of the Father. When He returns, I see Him as coming down with the "New Jerusalem" where He will dwell with us as, ...on Earth as it is in Heaven..." will be fully realized when He comes down to reign with us for the 1000 year period.
These are my limited thoughts on the matter so far. Now, I do understand that the "Abomination of desolation" WILL stand in this new Temple and attempt to mislead those who do not know better, or understand that this abomination of desolation is NOT the true Christ...just an impostor. Then, I picture the 2 witnesses, and pray for the unbelieving Jewish people who just might believe this imposter is truly their Messiah. It is only what I have come to see in a different light so, no certainty on my part! :)
 

Nancy

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didnt mean what?

Kinda means what it say's, pretty much.
"As far as "more" to be done by a Priest, would mean that when Jesus said "It is finished" He didn't really mean it"...in other words, it would make Jesus a liar and we know better than that.
 
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marks

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marks said:
Perhaps referring to this part?

Dueteronomy 4
10 Specially the day that thou stoodest before the Lord thy God in Horeb, when the Lord said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.
11 And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness.
12 And the Lord spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.

"ye came near and stood under the mountain" on the day "thou stoodest before the Lord thy God in Horeb."

I understand this as being in the plain below the mountain, rather than underneath the mountain.

Here we read that they (at least most people) saw nothing, not even a similitude. How that does fit with some people "seeing" God? This passage mentions darkness, clouds and thick darkness. The other passage has the seventy seeing God with extreme clearness and with blue underneath.

Hi Giuliano,

On this part, what I was saying was that I think "under the mountian" didn't refer to being underneath a spiritual mountain, I think that was what you were saying?

Much love!
 

marks

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His (glory) was outside, standing in God's presence. But God has shown into our hearts with His glory, and now it works it's way outside, increasing, and not fading.


2 Corinthians 3 and 4, Moses wore a veil because everyone was afraid of the shine, but Moses kept wearing that veil because he knew the shine was fading, and he didn't want the people to watch as it faded away to nothing.

2 Corinthians 4:6 "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

Much love!
 

Stan B

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Nancy says >> "no man can build a house, temple or anything with their hands that could contain our Great God. The Earth is His footstool, how could He possibly be boxed into a building of our making?"

I don't believe anyone has ever suggested the God could be boxed in. All of the Temples, including the future one, are places of worship and to offer sacrifices of atonement to God.

Nancy says >> "He will always be seated at the right hand of the Father. When He returns, I see Him as coming down with the "New Jerusalem" where He will dwell with us as, ...on Earth as it is in Heaven..." will be fully realized when He comes down to reign with us for the 1000 year period."

No. The New Jerusalem comes down at the end of the millenium. Meanwhile Jesus comes through the Eastern Gate, which is currently bricked up, to His Temple, and will reign on earth, on the throne of David in Jerusalem.

Christ's reign during the millenium will not be at all utopian. Israel will be surrounded my Jew-hating nations who hate God, and Jesus "rules the nations with a rod of iron". The entire effort ends with the final battle, the greatest the world has ever seen. Then comes the Great White Throne Judgement which rids the world of those who reject God. Maybe this is the point where God creates the new heavens and the new earth. It is then, that the New Jerusalem descends from Heaven for eternity.


Nancy says >>"Now, I do understand that the "Abomination of desolation" WILL stand in this new Temple and attempt to mislead those who do not know better, or understand that this abomination of desolation is NOT the true Christ...just an impostor. Then, I picture the 2 witnesses, and pray for the unbelieving Jewish people who just might believe this imposter is truly their Messiah. It is only what I have come to see in a different light so, no certainty on my part! :)"

The Abomination of Desolation does not present himself as Christ, but as God. There wouldn't be many remaining believers in Christ at this point, because they have all been just raptured. So the attention is directed at Israel.
I suspect that the Abomination of Desolation will appear in concert with the opening of the 7th seal. Immediately before the 7th seal is opened, we see in Rev 7, the sealing of the 144,000 Jews, who will remain here on earth during the final part of the Great Tribulation, the time of Jacob's trouble, not the time for believers trouble. The believers are not sealed, because they will not be here for this part of the Great Tribulation. As revealed in Rev 7, they will all be taken up to the throne of God before the 7th seal is opened.

As for the 144,000, in Rev 14, "the Lamb standing on Mount Zion [Jerusalem], and with him one hundred forty-four thousand". The Bible doesn't say much about the purpose of the 144,000, but I speculate that they have something to do with setting up Jerusalem et al, the reign of Christ.

Some of what I have said, is probably correct. :)

 

Giuliano

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marks said:
Perhaps referring to this part?

Dueteronomy 4
10 Specially the day that thou stoodest before the Lord thy God in Horeb, when the Lord said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.
11 And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness.
12 And the Lord spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.

"ye came near and stood under the mountain" on the day "thou stoodest before the Lord thy God in Horeb."

I understand this as being in the plain below the mountain, rather than underneath the mountain.



Hi Giuliano,

On this part, what I was saying was that I think "under the mountian" didn't refer to being underneath a spiritual mountain, I think that was what you were saying?

Much love!
That is indeed what I meant. What do you make of the word "under"? Is it wrong?

His (glory) was outside, standing in God's presence. But God has shown into our hearts with His glory, and now it works it's way outside, increasing, and not fading.

2 Corinthians 3 and 4, Moses wore a veil because everyone was afraid of the shine, but Moses kept wearing that veil because he knew the shine was fading, and he didn't want the people to watch as it faded away to nothing.

2 Corinthians 4:6 "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

Much love!
I don't understand your take on the passage. What we are told in Exodus is that Moses wore the veil most of the time because his face frightened people but not when he was speaking the words of God to Israel.

Exodus 34:30 And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.
31 And Moses called unto them; and Aaron and all the rulers of the congregation returned unto him: and Moses talked with them.
32 And afterward all the children of Israel came nigh: and he gave them in commandment all that the Lord had spoken with him in mount Sinai.
33 And till Moses had done speaking with them, he put a vail on his face.
34 But when Moses went in before the Lord to speak with him, he took the vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the children of Israel that which he was commanded.
35 And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.


Paul seems to be talking about a different vail, a vail on the heart of the people of Israel.

Where are you getting the idea that Moses didn't want the people to watch his face fading? That would imply vanity in Moses. We are told he was a humble man, not given to pride. Jesus' face was glorified at his transfiguration, and only three people were permitted to see it. Would you say it "faded" because later other people couldn't see it? I wouldn't.
 

Nancy

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Nancy says >> "no man can build a house, temple or anything with their hands that could contain our Great God. The Earth is His footstool, how could He possibly be boxed into a building of our making?"

I don't believe anyone has ever suggested the God could be boxed in. All of the Temples, including the future one, are places of worship and to offer sacrifices of atonement to God.

Nancy says >> "He will always be seated at the right hand of the Father. When He returns, I see Him as coming down with the "New Jerusalem" where He will dwell with us as, ...on Earth as it is in Heaven..." will be fully realized when He comes down to reign with us for the 1000 year period."

No. The New Jerusalem comes down at the end of the millenium. Meanwhile Jesus comes through the Eastern Gate, which is currently bricked up, to His Temple, and will reign on earth, on the throne of David in Jerusalem.

Christ's reign during the millenium will not be at all utopian. Israel will be surrounded my Jew-hating nations who hate God, and Jesus "rules the nations with a rod of iron". The entire effort ends with the final battle, the greatest the world has ever seen. Then comes the Great White Throne Judgement which rids the world of those who reject God. Maybe this is the point where God creates the new heavens and the new earth. It is then, that the New Jerusalem descends from Heaven for eternity.


Nancy says >>"Now, I do understand that the "Abomination of desolation" WILL stand in this new Temple and attempt to mislead those who do not know better, or understand that this abomination of desolation is NOT the true Christ...just an impostor. Then, I picture the 2 witnesses, and pray for the unbelieving Jewish people who just might believe this imposter is truly their Messiah. It is only what I have come to see in a different light so, no certainty on my part! :)"

The Abomination of Desolation does not present himself as Christ, but as God. There wouldn't be many remaining believers in Christ at this point, because they have all been just raptured. So the attention is directed at Israel.
I suspect that the Abomination of Desolation will appear in concert with the opening of the 7th seal. Immediately before the 7th seal is opened, we see in Rev 7, the sealing of the 144,000 Jews, who will remain here on earth during the final part of the Great Tribulation, the time of Jacob's trouble, not the time for believers trouble. The believers are not sealed, because they will not be here for this part of the Great Tribulation. As revealed in Rev 7, they will all be taken up to the throne of God before the 7th seal is opened.

As for the 144,000, in Rev 14, "the Lamb standing on Mount Zion [Jerusalem], and with him one hundred forty-four thousand". The Bible doesn't say much about the purpose of the 144,000, but I speculate that they have something to do with setting up Jerusalem et al, the reign of Christ.

Some of what I have said, is probably correct. :)

Whole nuther can of worms here, lol Won't comment as I'm not versed in it well enough.
 

marks

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Where are you getting the idea that Moses didn't want the people to watch his face fading? That would imply vanity in Moses. We are told he was a humble man, not given to pride. Jesus' face was glorified at his transfiguration, and only three people were permitted to see it. Would you say it "faded" because later other people couldn't see it? I wouldn't.

Both a spiritual and a physical veil . . .

2 Corinthians 3
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

Moses put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not continue to look until the end of that which is done away.

This is how the NIV puts it:

13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away.

I don't think it was about Moses being self-conscious, I think Moses wanted to spare the people having to see the shine fade away to nothing.

But we without a vail over our face show God's glory not as an external imprint, but from a new creation, new inside, not shining less and less with each passing day until it goes away, but shining more and more as we are being confirmed to His image.

18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Much love!