1 JOHN ONLY ISRAEL CAN BE BORN AGAIN

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charity

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This dispensation began with the revelation given to Paul, when he was saved in Acts 9.... but,the exact time by verse is unknown to me
'At midday, O king,
.. I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun,
.... shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
And when we were all fallen to the earth,
.. I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue,
.... "Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
...... it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks."
And I said, "Who art thou, Lord?"
And He said, "I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
.. But rise, and stand upon thy feet:
.... for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose,
...... to make thee a minister and a witness
........ both of these things which thou hast seen,
.......... and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Delivering thee from the people,
.. and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
.... To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light,
...... and from the power of Satan unto God,
........ that they may receive forgiveness of sins,
.......... and inheritance among them which are sanctified

............ by faith that is in me."
Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
.. But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem,
.... and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles,
...... that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.'

(Acts 26:13-20)

Hello @Doug,

In the quotation above, Paul is telling King Agrippa what happened to Him on the Road to Damascus in AD 32, what was said to him, and what he subsequently did. The first point you will have noted in the portion highlighted, is that the Lord declares the reason for His appearing to Paul: He says that it was, ' ... to make thee a minister: and a witness' - 'both of these things which thou hast seen' - 'and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee'. It is important to note that Christ Jesus, the ascended Lord, says that He would appear to Him again to give him further revelation.

* It is also important to note what Paul preached, in obedience to that heavenly vision. He says,
'.... that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.' There is no discernible difference here, in these words preached by Paul, from that of the ministry of the twelve, is there Doug? No further revelation! No change in dispensation! The difference was in the fact that Paul was to preach these words, not only in Jerusalem and Judaea, but to the Gentiles.

* No. There would be further revelations given to Paul: which would be evidenced in a change in what he preached (
Galatians 1:12 & Galatians 2:2 AD50; Galatians 2:7-9) : but the last of these revelations would indeed signal a great change (Ephesians 3:3), a change of dispensation (Ephesians 3:2 & Colossians 1:25); but that would not come until Israel had been given full opportunity to repent and acknowledge the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah and King.

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

 
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Doug

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'At midday, O king,
.. I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun,
.... shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
And when we were all fallen to the earth,
.. I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue,
.... "Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
...... it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks."
And I said, "Who art thou, Lord?"
And He said, "I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
.. But rise, and stand upon thy feet:
.... for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose,
...... to make thee a minister and a witness
........ both of these things which thou hast seen,
.......... and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Delivering thee from the people,
.. and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
.... To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light,
...... and from the power of Satan unto God,
........ that they may receive forgiveness of sins,
.......... and inheritance among them which are sanctified

............ by faith that is in me."
Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
.. But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem,
.... and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles,
...... that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.'

(Acts 26:13-20)

Hello @Doug,

In the quotation above, Paul is telling King Agrippa what happened to Him on the Road to Damascus in AD 32, what was said to him, and what he subsequently did. The first point you will have noted in the portion highlighted, is that the Lord declares the reason for His appearing to Paul: He says that it was, ' ... to make thee a minister: and a witness' - 'both of these things which thou hast seen' - 'and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee'. It is important to note that Christ Jesus, the ascended Lord, says that He would appear to Him again to give him further revelation.

* It is also important to note what Paul preached, in obedience to that heavenly vision. He says,
'.... that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.' There is no discernible difference here, in these words preached by Paul, from that of the ministry of the twelve, is there Doug? No further revelation! No change in dispensation! The difference was in the fact that Paul was to preach these words, not only in Jerusalem and Judaea, but to the Gentiles.

* No. There would be further revelations given to Paul: which would be evidenced in a change in what he preached (
Galatians 1:12 & Galatians 2:2 AD50; Galatians 2:7-9) : but the last of these revelations would indeed signal a great change (Ephesians 3:3), a change of dispensation (Ephesians 3:2 & Colossians 1:25); but that would not come until Israel had been given full opportunity to repent and acknowledge the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah and King.

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

Paul did not just preach mystery but, preached from the law and the prophets to both Jew and Gentile (Acts 24:14 Acts 28:23).

Paul was careful not to speak against the law (Acts 25:8).

When at first Paul was saved he preached Christ is the Son of God Acts 9:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

but look at Acts 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

Paul was preaching the gospel of grace revealed in this dispensation of grace.

Paul never spoke against the law.

There is no passage where he preached the gospel of the kingdom in which he said to repent for the kingdom on earth was at hand as did Jesus and the twelve.
 

Earburner

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1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

In all of the above verses John is addressing those who are "born of God".

Whosoever is born of God, does not commit sin, loves his brother, overcomes the world, keeps himself and that wicked one does not touch him.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Peter distinguishes being born again, as not being born of the corruptible seed of the flesh, the natural physical descent, but rather, the incorruptible word of God.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Israel had to believe on the name of Jesus to be born of God, not just born physically an Israelite.

Matthew 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Israel would not enter into the Davidic kingdom on earth, and reign with Christ, by being born children of Abraham in the flesh; Israel had to be born again by the Spirit of God (John 3:5-8).

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

It is the nation of Israel that must be born again. It is not accurate to say members of the body of Christ, in this dispensation, are born again; in all of Paul's epistles being born again is never applied to members of the body of Christ.
On the contrary! If ONE IS a believing member of the body of Christ, THEY ARE born again of His Spirit.
You forgot Romans 8:8-9 and 1 John 5:13
 

CharismaticLady

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1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

In all of the above verses John is addressing those who are "born of God".

Whosoever is born of God, does not commit sin, loves his brother, overcomes the world, keeps himself and that wicked one does not touch him.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Peter distinguishes being born again, as not being born of the corruptible seed of the flesh, the natural physical descent, but rather, the incorruptible word of God.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Israel had to believe on the name of Jesus to be born of God, not just born physically an Israelite.

Matthew 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Israel would not enter into the Davidic kingdom on earth, and reign with Christ, by being born children of Abraham in the flesh; Israel had to be born again by the Spirit of God (John 3:5-8).

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

It is the nation of Israel that must be born again. It is not accurate to say members of the body of Christ, in this dispensation, are born again; in all of Paul's epistles being born again is never applied to members of the body of Christ.

Being "born of God" is receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which Gentiles receive also, just in case you were not including me.
 

Earburner

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"In Christ, what's the differnce between a Good sinner and a Bad sinner?"
Please see KJV- Matthew 5:20
 

Mike Waters

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Please 'cut to the chase' for the benefit of this extreme dispensationalism dumbo.

a) Water baptism?
b) Born again (or what?) for today's Gentiles?
c) Sin after having been given a new heart?
d) The Judgement Seat of Christ as per Corinthians?
e) Church versus The Body of Christ?
f) The Bride of Christ?
g) The first (and second) resurrection?
h) Communion/remembrance/the Lords supper?
i) Saturday or Sunday worship?
j) Babylon the Great?
k) Eternal torment in Hell Fire for other than the Beast, the Devil, and the False Profit?
l) The Second Death?
m) The verbal inerrancy of (precisely what)?
n) Any other extra dispensational specialities?
o) Please enumerate the full range of dispensations.
 
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Earburner

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1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I suppose, there are least two views on that verse,
1. Those who are resting in Jesus, being made sin-less by His shed blood.
2. Those who are hard at work trying to make themselves to be sin-free.

Q. Which view is understanding what Colossians 3:1-4 means?
 

charity

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Paul did not just preach mystery but, preached from the law and the prophets to both Jew and Gentile (Acts 24:14 Acts 28:23).

Paul was careful not to speak against the law (Acts 25:8).

When at first Paul was saved he preached Christ is the Son of God Acts 9:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

but look at Acts 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

Paul was preaching the gospel of grace revealed in this dispensation of grace.

Paul never spoke against the law.

There is no passage where he preached the gospel of the kingdom in which he said to repent for the kingdom on earth was at hand as did Jesus and the twelve.
'Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks,
repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

.. And now, behold,
.... I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem,
...... not knowing the things that shall befall me there:
........ Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city,
.......... saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.
But none of these things move me,
.. neither count I my life dear unto myself,
.... so that I might finish my course with joy,
...... and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus,
........ to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
And now, behold, I know that ye all,
.. among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God,
.... shall see my face no more.
...... Wherefore I take you to record this day,
........ that I am pure from the blood of all men.
.......... For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

(Acts 20:21-27)

Hi @Doug,

Thank you for your response, I do appreciate it. :)

* The question posed was: - when did the present dispensation begin?

* Paul did not preach the truth concerning 'The Mystery' until he had received the revelation concerning it (Ephesians 3:1-3).

* Yes, Paul did teach to his own brethren out of the law and the prophets the things concerning Christ Jesus His risen Lord, in order to enable them to see that He was their Messiah and King. To the Gentiles the gospel of the grace of God was ministered, for believing Gentiles were grafted into the Olive Tree of Israel to promote life in that ailing tree. For the object was that Israel repent and come to salvation, thus fulfilling God's purpose for them as Priests unto God. This was the purpose throughout the Acts period, in response to Peter's address to Israel in Acts 3:18-20.

* Acts 20:17 onward, is a good portion to read to compare the ministry of Paul before the revelation of God concerning the Mystery was given, with that of the epistles written following that revelation, for there Paul summarises his ministry to the Ephesian elders, He tells them also that he had faithfully made known to them ALL the council of God (v.27): yet no mention was made by him of the truth concerning the Mystery, so it could not have been made known to him before that time, otherwise he could not have said that he had told them ALL the council of God,

* In Acts 20:24 that you quote, Paul is speaking of the ministry he was about to embark on, for he was on his way to prison, and the ministry associated with it, as 'The Lord's Prisoner' in which he would preach 'the gospel of the grace of God', in accord with the truth of The Mystery which was yet to be revealed to him.

* If this does not equate with what you have come to believe, Doug, then let us leave it before the Lord, and let Him be the Arbiter. For this is something that is between us and the Lord our God, Who alone can give understanding.

Thank you. :)
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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Doug

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On the contrary! If ONE IS a believing member of the body of Christ, THEY ARE born again of His Spirit.
You forgot Romans 8:8-9 and 1 John 5:13

You can say you are born again, but the Bible doesn't support it.

We were dead in sin but, made alive by the Spirit (Romans 8:11 Ephesians 2:1)....renewed yes, not born again.....that term is applied to Israel.
 

Mike Waters

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You can say you are born again, but the Bible doesn't support it.

We were dead in sin but, made alive by the Spirit (Romans 8:11 Ephesians 2:1)....renewed yes, not born again.....that term is applied to Israel.

In as much as the exiled Jews thought that when Jesus preached 'The promised Kingdom" he was referring to their recovery of the earthly Jerusalem on the basis of their natural birthright.
So yes indeed to your contention, in that so much of Jesus' preaching was addressed to the Jews who needed to know that a 'born again' experience was essential in order to replace their natural birthright misconception.
But that does not mean that Gentiles do not also need to be 'born again', albeit for a different reason.
Unless of course you ascribe to a denominatinational theology that majors on extreme dispensational sub division.
 

Doug

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He tells them also that he had faithfully made known to them ALL the council of God (v.27): yet no mention was made by him of the truth concerning the Mystery, so it could not have been made known to him before that time, otherwise he could not have said that he had told them ALL the council of God,

Hello Chris

The book of Acts is a transitional book and does not completely record everything said by Paul. I think it's main purpose, if you will, is to record the fall of Israel and change in dispensations, a postponement of the earthly kingdom.

In Acts 20:25 he says And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

It would be fair to say the kingdom he preached was the heavenly kingdom, which would be part of the mystery:

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

That nothing is said in Acts 20:27 about the mystery does not mean Paul didn't preach it.

You have to look at internal evidence in Paul's epistles to determine, in some cases, when they were written and that Paul was writing of the revelations given him:
By looking at Acts 18:5 And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.

It can be seen that Timothy returned to Paul

1 Thessalonians 3:6 But now when Timotheus came from you unto us, and brought us good tidings of your faith and charity, and that ye have good remembrance of us always, desiring greatly to see us, as we also to see you:

1 Thessalonians written around Acts 18 shows Paul had mystery revelations as just 1 example.
 
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charity

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'Before she travailed, she brought forth;
.. before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
.... Who hath heard such a thing?
...... who hath seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day?
.. or shall a nation be born at once?
.... for as soon as Zion travailed,
...... she brought forth her children.
Shall I bring to the birth,
and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD:
shall I cause to bring forth,
and shut the womb? saith thy God.
(Isaiah 66:7-9)

Hi @Doug,

Keep this on hold a moment, will you. I haven't got time to follow this up now, for I have to go, but I am looking for something in the Old Testament which refers to the renewal of Israel. Jeremiah 31:31+ comes to mind of course, but can you think of any others.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

charity

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Hello Chris

The book of Acts is a transitional book and does not completely record everything said by Paul. I think it's main purpose if you will is to record the fall of Israel and change in dispensations, a postponement of the earthly kingdom.

In verse 25 he says And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

It would be fair to say the kingdom he preached was the heavenly kingdom, which would be part of the mystery:

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

That nothing is said in verse 27 about the mystery does not mean Paul didn't preach it.

You have to look at internal evidence in Paul's epistles to determine, in some cases, when they were written and that Paul was writing of the revelations given him:
By looking at Acts 18:5 And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.
It can be seen that Timothy returned to Paul
1 Thessalonians 3:6 But now when Timotheus came from you unto us, and brought us good tidings of your faith and charity, and that ye have good remembrance of us always, desiring greatly to see us, as we also to see you:
1 Thessalonians written around Acts 18 shows Paul had mystery revelations as just 1 example.
Hello there, @Doug,

I acknowledge this entry of yours, and will come back to address it asap. :)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

VictoryinJesus

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but I am looking for something in the Old Testament which refers to the renewal of Israel.


Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
 

Truth

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1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

In all of the above verses John is addressing those who are "born of God".

Whosoever is born of God, does not commit sin, loves his brother, overcomes the world, keeps himself and that wicked one does not touch him.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Peter distinguishes being born again, as not being born of the corruptible seed of the flesh, the natural physical descent, but rather, the incorruptible word of God.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Israel had to believe on the name of Jesus to be born of God, not just born physically an Israelite.

Matthew 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Israel would not enter into the Davidic kingdom on earth, and reign with Christ, by being born children of Abraham in the flesh; Israel had to be born again by the Spirit of God (John 3:5-8).

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

It is the nation of Israel that must be born again. It is not accurate to say members of the body of Christ, in this dispensation, are born again; in all of Paul's epistles being born again is never applied to members of the body of Christ.

WHEN DID OUR SAVIOR BECOME BORN AGAIN?
 
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Doug

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* In Acts 20:24 that you quote, Paul is speaking of the ministry he was about to embark on, for he was on his way to prison, and the ministry associated with it, as 'The Lord's Prisoner' in which he would preach 'the gospel of the grace of God', in accord with the truth of The Mystery which was yet to be revealed to him.

Acts 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

I see that Paul had already received the ministry to testify the gospel of the grace of God according to the mystery.

That is not to say he received all revelation.
 

Doug

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'Before she travailed, she brought forth;
.. before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
.... Who hath heard such a thing?
...... who hath seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day?
.. or shall a nation be born at once?
.... for as soon as Zion travailed,
...... she brought forth her children.
Shall I bring to the birth,
and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD:
shall I cause to bring forth,
and shut the womb? saith thy God.
(Isaiah 66:7-9)

Hi @Doug,

Keep this on hold a moment, will you. I haven't got time to follow this up now, for I have to go, but I am looking for something in the Old Testament which refers to the renewal of Israel. Jeremiah 31:31+ comes to mind of course, but can you think of any others.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Sorry, nothing I can find
 

charity

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Thank you for engaging with me.
I now have to go.
In Christ Jesus
Chris