predestination or free will

I think most of God's plans are predestined.
I don't believe that people were predestine before the beginning of the creation.
Free will is the best way for God to find people loving him on their own accord, not made to love him.

The Bible teaches a group (called Christian) is predestined to be saved and each individual must use his free will to choose to obey the gospel and be in that predestined group or not.

The Bible does NOT teach unconditional predestination of the individual apart from the gospel where the individual has no choice in being saved (in the predestined group) or not.

I think that between God's sovereignty, foreknowledge and omniscience, he knows exactly who are his, or, who will do what, in any given circumstance, before the beginning of time. And thus, he has created the environment that is conducive to expose those, who by their free-will, will either accept or reject the Gospel of Christ, accordingly.
God knows us better than we know ourselves, just as Jesus knew who would abandon him, despite the culprits declaring and insisting otherwise. This does not mean that anyone was forced, possessed, or wired to act in a particular manner. Wisdom just gives the possessor of it, that insight. Just as a parent knows their children, better than the kids know themselves. And therefore, they control the environment in order to bring out the best for them.

DNB said:

I think that between God's sovereignty, foreknowledge and omniscience, he knows exactly who are his, or, who will do what, in any given circumstance, before the beginning of time. And thus, he has created the environment that is conducive to expose those, who by their free-will, will either accept or reject the Gospel of Christ, accordingly.
God knows us better than we know ourselves, just as Jesus knew who would abandon him, despite the culprits declaring and insisting otherwise. This does not mean that anyone was forced, possessed, or wired to act in a particular manner. Wisdom just gives the possessor of it, that insight. Just as a parent knows their children, better than the kids know themselves. And therefore, they control the environment in order to bring out the best for them.

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PERFECT.
I couldn't have said it better myself.

God bless you for sharing the TRUTH.
My name is OLIGOS

I agree that God knew there would be those persons that would choose to be The True God servants. What I mean by that is God knows there will be those who will love him so much that they would have faith in him. God doesn't look to see which individuals will love him and have faith in him, he lets freewill decide that, but he always knew there would be those who would love him and have faith in him. I don't believe that God predestined for Adam and Eve to rebel nor the Angel that became a Devil and Satan for that matter. Adam and Eve and the Angel were individuals who simply chose not to love God enough to have faith in him.

BARNEY BRIGHT said:

I agree that God knew there would be those persons that would choose to be The True God servants. What I mean by that is God knows there will be those who will love him so much that they would have faith in him. God doesn't look to see which individuals will love him and have faith in him, he lets freewill decide that, but he always knew there would be those who would love him and have faith in him. I don't believe that God predestined for Adam and Eve to rebel nor the Angel that became a Devil and Satan for that matter. Adam and Eve and the Angel were individuals who simply chose not to love God enough to have faith in him.

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Lots of different views on this topic.
I'm with you BARNEY and DMV. Nice to hear from a few people who share my conclusions, and others, that came from God's word.

My name is OLIGOS

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I have said this many times, and will share my thoughts again:

Predestination is real and is supported by the Bible in multiple incidents. I am not talking about a "people" (the gentiles) being predestined, I am talking about individuals. John 10:3, for example, says His sheep hear his voice, he calls them by name and leads them out. He also sought out specific individuals like Paul, Moses and Jeremiah and I while folks claim they had free will, God certainly compelled them despite their objections.


I could give many more, including the notable verses like in Eph 1 and Romans 8. Point is, you can't dismiss it. I cannot totally dismiss free will because we are "the Lord's free man". We still have the power to mess up our lives. But we are still the Lord's.

The problem with predestination is that the concept doesn't help us. God doesn't give certificates, crowns, diplomas or class rings before you finish. Not does he tell us we actually will finish.

While he does predestinate people and know who will be saved, he doesn't tell us who will. It's simply human nature that if we knew, we would stop running the race, as Paul put it. Maybe not right away, but eventually.

It's a pretty damaging argument on both sides. Those that believe in predestination may become lax in faith and at times, snobbish. Those that believe in free will may become self exhaulted, believing in their own works and we'll, snobbish as well.

So God does predestinate individuals. He said he did, and in fact told Jeremiah he was foreordained for a plan (maybe not for salvation). Yet, he doesn't tell us we are before the time. He just gives the game plan on what to do.

Predestination is real, but it doesn't help us.

FHII my friend
The title here is FREEWILL or PREDESTIATION, but I don't see it as one or the other, rather, one is the result of the other.
Freewill offers us the free choice to reject or accept the salvation that God offers all mankind, and in His full knowledge (Omniscience)) of our choices, knows what we will freely choose that causes any of us in that state of choice to become "Predestined, foreknew, chosen, the elect, the few, the appointed, the remnant.

Yeah, it's a pretty big topic if you study it out, and study all these other words here that mean the same as predestined.

In my thinking, predestination can be humbling, just as being called to become a Christian by the lord can be humbling, and we can be overwhelmed by the Grace of His choice, knowing who any of us were as sinners before His calling on us, and yet He chose to look far beyond our sins and see who we would become far into the future from our hearts.

To me, no matter what it is that God calls us to, it has nothing to do with our worthiness or deserving anything, as we deserve nothing but "DEATH" (Separation from God "ETERNALLY"), and only by His grace are we spared, to complete the plan He has for our lives.
PRAISE GOD for His GRACE and MERCY.



May our Lord bless you each day
My name is OLIGOS

Seasoned by Grace said:

FHII my friend
The title here is FREEWILL or PREDESTIATION, but I don't see it as one or the other, rather, one is the result of the other.
Freewill offers us the free choice to reject or accept the salvation that God offers all mankind, and in His full knowledge (Omniscience)) of our choices, knows what we will freely choose that causes any of us in that state of choice to become "Predestined, foreknew, chosen, the elect, the few, the appointed, the remnant.

Yeah, it's a pretty big topic if you study it out, and study all these other words here that mean the same as predestined.

In my thinking, predestination can be humbling, just as being called to become a Christian by the lord can be humbling, and we can be overwhelmed by the Grace of His choice, knowing who any of us were as sinners before His calling on us, and yet He chose to look far beyond our sins and see who we would become far into the future from our hearts.

To me, no matter what it is that God calls us to, it has nothing to do with our worthiness or deserving anything, as we deserve nothing but "DEATH" (Separation from God "ETERNALLY"), and only by His grace are we spared, to complete the plan He has for our lives.
PRAISE GOD for His GRACE and MERCY.



May our Lord bless you each day
My name is OLIGOS

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That's pretty much a rejection of predestination while trying to show support of it. Sorry, but I am not buying it. I have too much evidence that God pulled strings to make things happen.

Taken said: Predestination- Applies To God, Who IS All Knowing, WHAT every man WILL choose, and has Prepared a Place, for Every man, TO BE With or Without The Lord God.[/Quote\]

If by this you're saying God looks into the future to see who chooses to love him or not down through time I disagree. I believe that God being all knowing doesn't mean God is looking into every millisecond of the future nor that he has to be looking at every millisecond of the future for him to be all knowing. As I said God knows there will be those in creation that will love him and therefore exercise faith in him because of their love for the True God. God doesn't have to look at every millisecond of the future to know this. God allows an individual free will to decide whether they will choose to love God and exercise faith in him. I honestly don't believe that God knew who or which individuals in his creation would love the True God before he created anyone or anything, he did however know there would be those who would love him and exercise faith in God who ever they may be.