I observe the Sabbath on....

marks said:

Understood, thank you! Resetting myself . . . and my post . . .



I'm sorry, I fear I'm getting too used to other people's bad behavior! I should have thought better of you, as you've been demonstrating better!

OK, I've editted my post to actually say something constructive, I hope!

Sorry again!

Much love!

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You won't believe me, but I'm telling you, you are THE FIRST person in the 20 years I have been posting who said 'Sorry' and even did <reset> his post. GOD BLESS YOU AND LOVE YOU

Giuliano said:

I do not see the need to discuss these other things with you. This thread is unruly enough as it is. I don't see how this fits into the discussion about the Sabbath.

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I answered the other post.

Giuliano said:

We all have consciences. We are born with enough of a connection with God that we know many times what is right and what isn't.

Men of good consciences who love their neighbors do good naturally. They do not need written laws. )Paul says they form a "a law unto themselves.") Written laws are for people with hard hearts or singed consciences. We will all be judged according to our deeds, good and bad.

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

The problem for mankind is how children go astray, losing their natural loving nature in this cruel world. Jesus said we must find that nature again. We must return to the original nature God gave us all. We cannot blame Adam, Eve or anyone else for our failure to love God and our neighbors. We all know that is wrong, without being told.

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Conscience is God given but it is also subject to manipulation. The scripture does not say sin is the transgression of conscience; the scripture says plainly that sin is the transgression of the Law. It is because God's Law has been transgressed that Judgement comes and it will be his Law by which righteousness its measured. Your quoted texts above verify this

It is the studied intent of Satan to diminish the validity of God's Law because he knows if this is achieved the people stand on shifting sand.
God's character and his Law are inseparable because they are one and the same thing. Shooting down the Law reveals the attempt to assassinate God's character. ....Oh the subtlety of the evil one!

Giuliano said:

The heart shows our intentions. Surely if we want to steal and would if we thought we could get away with it, that's a problem with the heart. Lusting in the heart is also a sin if the intention is there but remains unexpressed.

You did not respond to other points -- like Jesus being tempted in all things. That tells me that thoughts crossed his mind but he never entertained them in his heart.

Again you failed to address one of my points. Genesis speaks about wanting to be "wise." It's one of the first lessons in the Book.

Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Charity is surely the principal thing.

Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

1 Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

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Well, I'm not really disagreeing with you, outside of 'correcting' you on your contention with my remark about wisdom. So I won't address your points, because they're valid in a sense, ...but they don't undermine my point.
Wisdom is the greatest gift, and that is by God's design. You keep comparing intellect or wordly knowledge, against it. They are not the same.
Knowing that something is a sin, as in the knowledge that Adam & Eve gained, is very different than knowing why it's a sin. This was my point on how to desist sin, if one understood the abhorrent nature of it, and why the interdiction, it would make most people repulse, not feel compelled.

Jesus was tempted, it does not mean that he entertained or fantasized about the sin. Wisdom protected him, he knew that the glory or pleasure that sin offered, was only fleeting, basal and incomparable to what God offered. Thoughts are sinful when one desires the sin, not simply meditating on its vice, or on just the fact that it exists. We can talk about what constitutes a sin, without sinning, for example.

I liked your idea about when temptation creeps in, to divert the thought by doing the opposite i.e. showing affection to your wife, working hard, doing charity, or doing any act that is contrary to the thought.
But, wisdom is still better, because it's not contingent upon a subsequent action to be successful. It doesn't feel threatened in the first place, it sees the ugliness and danger right away.

quietthinker said:

It is the studied intent of Satan to diminish the validity of God's Law because he knows if this is achieved the people stand on shifting sand.
God's character and his Law are inseparable because they one and the same thing. Shooting down the Law reveals the attempt to assassinate God's character. ....Oh the subtlety of the evil one!

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What you say may not only be true; it IS true. Nevertheless it is the studied intent of Satan and the catholic universal church not only to diminish the validity of God's Law as far as the Sabbath as the Fourth Commandment is concerned, but they know that if they could achieve the people to believe the Sabbath stood on the Law only or on the Law per se, and not on the true basis and reason for being of the Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST FROM THE DEAD ON IT, they would have completely destroyed the last semblance of its validity. Denying this, the core and "BONE ESSENTIALITY" of "the day The Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD" equals the <assassination> of both <God's character> and the Sabbath Day PER SE because God's character and his Law of SALVATION in the Lord of the Sabbath are inseparable.

God's character and his Law are inseparable because they are one and the same in the Person of "The Word" of God, His Son.

quietthinker said:

Conscience is God given but it is also subject to manipulation. The scripture does not say sin is the transgression of conscience; the scripture says plainly that sin is the transgression of the Law. It is because God's Law has been transgressed that Judgement comes and it will be his Law by which righteousness its measured. Your quoted texts above verify this

It is the studied intent of Satan to diminish the validity of God's Law because he knows if this is achieved the people stand on shifting sand.
God's character and his Law are inseparable because they are one and the same thing. Shooting down the Law reveals the attempt to assassinate God's character. ....Oh the subtlety of the evil one!

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When you say "Law", do you mean the Law as given by Moses or the Eternal Law of God, the Law of Light?

Conscience cannot be manipulated. It can be warped, but only by people who don't obey their consciences and wish it would be silent. Such people harden their hearts and are without excuse. They cannot claim God gave them defective consciences or that other people manipulated them.

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

There is not one person on the face of this earth who can claim ignorance of the Eternal Law of God.

Giuliano said:

There is not one person on the face of this earth who can claim ignorance of the Eternal Law of God.

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Today, perhaps not. But that's not what saves them, their souls or their skins. Paul says those who are lost even though they had the Law are lost NO DIFFERENT than those who never had the Law and are just as lost . Some go to hell because they had the Law. Those who did not have the Law also go to hell "WITHOUT THE LAW", says Paul and I believe what Paul says is true and that includes that NONE is saved by their works in obedience to the Law.

Giuliano said:

When you say "Law", do you mean the Law as given by Moses or the Eternal Law of God, the Law of Light?

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When the scripture speaks of the Law written by the finger of God it speaks of unchangeable precepts. For a Christian this should be as obvious as a train smash. Jesus died because he took the punishment for men that the Law demanded (the wages of sin is death... sin is the transgression of the law)
Were it changeable then the Father would have answered Jesus's request in Gethsemane where he sweated drops of blood and begged that if it were possible this cup would be removed. This has got to be a no brainer.....any argument contrary comes from blind minds that do not understand how the pieces of the puzzle regarding redemption fit.

Giuliano said:

Conscience cannot be manipulated. It can be warped, but only by people who don't obey their consciences and wish it would be silent. Such people harden their hearts and are without excuse.

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Religious people feel guilty for all sorts of things that are fabrications; is this not evidence of a manipulated conscience? or is it that the cause for slow burning anxiety whose source cannot be identified is none other accumulated guilt?

quietthinker said:

When the scripture speaks of the Law written by the finger of God it speaks of unchangeable precepts. For a Christian this should be as obvious as a train smash. Jesus died because he took the punishment for men that the Law demanded (the wages of sin is death... sin is the transgression of the law)
Were it changeable then the Father would have answered Jesus's request in Gethsemane where he sweated drops of blood and begged that if it were possible this cup would be removed. This has got to be a no brainer.....any argument contrary comes from blind minds that do not understand how the pieces of the puzzle regarding redemption fit.

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The words written by God on stones were intended to tell Israel that they needed to have them written on their hearts by God. Having the Decalogue written on stone was not enough.

Deuteronomy 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

The True Law of God is the Law of Love, the Law of Light. It is eternal and has never changed. The laws of Moses are an attempt to put that Law into human words for people unable to hear the Voice of God for themselves.

Religious people feel guilty for all sorts of things that are fabrications; is this not evidence of a manipulated conscience? or is it that the cause for slow burning anxiety whose source cannot be identified is none other accumulated guilt?

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Sorry but I find that last sentence hard to understand. My view of it that the consciences of men can be manipulated only when they value the opinions of men more than of God.

John 12:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

We imperil ourselves if the Voice of God is ignored. We're back to Eden when Eve hearkened to the voice of the serpent and Adam hearkened to her voice.

Giuliano said:

The words written by God on stones were intended to tell Israel that they needed to have them written on their hearts by God. Having the Decalogue written on stone was not enough.

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If the words written on stone are to be written on our hearts then there is no conflict between the two. If we say the words written on stone no longer apply then we have contradicted ourselves and we don't understand what we are saying.
Are not the words written on stone that which convict of sin? how much more those written on our hearts? if we truly believe that.

I would say though that those who take the position that God's Laws on stone have been done away with do so because they do not have them in their hearts. They love their sins and anything that highlights them needs to be gotten rid of 'for they love the praise of men more than the praise of God'. John 12:43 They prefer their own man made laws which men can approve of. If this were not the case they would embrace those written on stone because they are the law of love.

Jesus who kept the Law perfectly was/is the epitome of love. They hated Jesus because his life of love was a constant rebuke. His rightful assessment was that they were hypocrites.

quietthinker said:

If the words written on stone are to be written on our hearts then there is no conflict between the two. If we say the words written on stone no longer apply then we have contradicted ourselves and we don't understand what we are saying.
Are not the words written on stone that which convict of sin? how much more those written on our hearts? if we truly believe that.

I would say though that those who take the position that God's Laws on stone have been done away with do so because they do not have them in their hearts. They love their sins and anything that highlights them needs to be gotten rid of 'for they love the praise of men more than the praise of God'. John 12:43 They prefer their own man made laws which men can approve of. If this were not the case they would embrace those written on stone because they are the law of love.

Jesus who kept the Law perfectly was/is the epitome of love. They hated Jesus because his life of love was a constant rebuke. His rightful assessment was that they were hypocrites.

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We should not confuse the "letter of the Law" (the literal words) with the "Spirit of the Law." There is no written law that can be 100% perfect.

The purpose of the Law of Moses (in written form) was meant to give life. The average person could not be expected to understand it completely, so he was told to obey how the Sanhedrin interpreted it. Jesus said that was right.

Matthew 23:2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

It would be horrible to interpret the Law, meant to give life, in a way that brought death. Thus if someone was starving or really hungry as David was, it would be okay to eat the shewbread. We could call him "guilty" by the "letter of the law" -- but he was innocent by the "spirit of the law."

Think of the various written laws of Moses as similar to instructions parents give to children. Drain cleaner is useful to have if you understand what it's for. It's a poison if you drink it. Before children understand how it's useful, parents tell them not to touch it, not to drink it. They may hide it. When the children grow up, they have learned how to deal with drain cleaner. They no longer need that commandment from their parents.

Human laws are similar. We have laws about speeding and going through red lights and stop signs; but ambulances, firemen and the police sometimes need to "break those laws." The purpose of the speeding law is to save lives, but there are some cases when the right thing to do is break the speeding law.

The Christian should be able to know what's right and wrong -- while admitting that almost all the time, it's wrong to steal, I'd say sometimes there may be times it's the right thing to do.

Sometimes even adultery might be right. I read about a Jewish woman who husband had escaped Nazi Germany while she got put into a concentration camp. People were overworked. She would have died. The only way out for her was if she got pregnant. She became friends with a guard -- they had sex and she got pregnant. She was released and was reunited with her husband (in England I believe). They had a son and named it after the guard. Her husband had no problem with it. What is the purpose of marriage? She wanted to be with husband because she loved him. She also wanted to have children. The only way she could do that was to commit adultery. I do not see her as sinning.

There are exceptions to the various laws given by Moses.

Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Luke 6:9 Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?

The laws of Moses in written form are approximate only. The person who is awake spiritually and operating out of love should come to learn when to "break the letter" of the written law and keep the spirit of the Eternal Law of Love. It is wrong to interpret the laws of Moses in a way that brings about death.

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Giuliano said:

We should not confuse the "letter of the Law" (the literal words) with the "Spirit of the Law." There is no written law that can be 100% perfect.

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Psalm 19:7-8 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.

Giuliano said:

Matthew 23:2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

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The endorsement by Jesus of the Law that the Pharisee's never kept is clear. Where does your interest lie then; to keep it as Jesus directed or to fudge it like the Pharisee's did?

Giuliano said:

It would be horrible to interpret the Law, meant to give life, in a way that brought death.

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Yes it would be.....so interpret it in a way that gives life.

Giuliano said:

The laws of Moses in written form are approximate only.

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That can only be said if you are unfamiliar with them. There is nothing approximate about them.

Giuliano said:

Sometimes even adultery might be right. I read about a Jewish woman who husband had escaped Nazi Germany while she got put into a concentration camp. People were overworked. She would have died. The only way out for her was if she got pregnant. She became friends with a guard -- they had sex and she got pregnant. She was released and was reunited with her husband (in England I believe). They had a son and named it after the guard. Her husband had no problem with it. What is the purpose of marriage? She wanted to be with husband because she loved him. She also wanted to have children. The only way she could do that was to commit adultery. I do not see her as sinning.

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This is a private interpretation and has the slippery element of human justification. The scripture is clear about human justification. 2 Peter 2:18-20
Again, if we could make excuses for breaking God's Law that were valid then Lucifer would have justification. Your statement 'I do not see her as sinning.' is not an argument that errs on the side of truth.

Giuliano said:

The laws of Moses in written form are approximate only. The person who is awake spiritually and operating out of love should come to learn when to "break the letter" of the written law and keep the spirit of the Eternal Law of Love. It is wrong to interpret the laws of Moses in a way that brings about death.

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The letter of the Law is only broken by those who do not understand the Sprit of the Law. The Sprit of the Law does not break the letter of the Law.
Both the letter and the Spirit of the Law are in harmony. To argue that they are at variance with each other is indicative of a lack of understanding.
To quote Psalm 19:7-8 again.... The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.

Seasoned by Grace said:

I observe the Sabbath on...

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When I can usually Saturday afternoon and Sunday afternoon. Since I am a sub-deacon I work on Sunday setting the table at Church and doing the Computer work