How "LIMITED" is your thinking on Other Tongues?

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Enoch111

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Isn't a "social science approach" more like eisegesis? Isn't exegesis what comes out of the text?
Correct. And that is the fundamental flaw of this paper. And to claim that Paul had no clue about Pentecost (as suggested by Willie) is to underestimate both Paul and the Holy Spirit. There is no question that Paul would have been fully apprised of everything that happened on Pentecost and thereafter. Indeed, he gives us the fullest discussion about spiritual gifts, and tells us that tongues were a sign gift for unbelieving Jews.
 

Willie T

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Correct. And that is the fundamental flaw of this paper. And to claim that Paul had no clue about Pentecost (as suggested by Willie) is to underestimate both Paul and the Holy Spirit. There is no question that Paul would have been fully apprised of everything that happened on Pentecost and thereafter. Indeed, he gives us the fullest discussion about spiritual gifts, and tells us that tongues were a sign gift for unbelieving Jews.
You didn't even read what I wrote, did you? In your haste, you missed an important part...… take another look. (I deliberately set it off in commas so you wouldn't miss it.)
 

Nancy

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The reason I ever read it in the first place, is that I honestly do think the same old canned "Shanda la sha bamba" I hear so many preachers blurt out is as phony as a three dollar bill...… even though I DO believe a miracle of HEARING went on that day at Pentecost.

One thing that struck me is that, for decades, I have also jumped to the erroneous conclusion that because 15 locations were listed in Acts 2, that there had to have been at least 15 different languages heard (The author keeps saying, "spoken.")

Good one Willie T. me bro!
I have wondered did they really speak in the other "languages" or was it those from all parts were hearing it in their own tongues. After all, the Word does say they "all heard..."
 

Willie T

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Good one Willie T. me bro!
I have wondered did they really speak in the other "languages" or was it those from all parts were hearing it in their own tongues. After all, the Word does say they "all heard..."
Although about 6 or 8 people on here will swear THEY know exactly what happened (and you already know the people I mean LOL) I'm afraid none of us will ever know for sure, until we reach our final home. But, I too, lean more toward it being primarily a HEARING miracle.
 

marks

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Although about 6 or 8 people on here will swear THEY know exactly what happened (and you already know the people I mean LOL) I'm afraid none of us will ever know for sure, until we reach our final home. But, I too, lean more toward it being primarily a HEARING miracle.
That's what I think to, but it's so unimportant to be whether it's this way or that way. Thousands were added to the church.

That's much love!
 

amadeus

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@Willie T
I started to read it earlier today, but soon was unable to stay focused or interested partly because its complexity, (even though it was within an area [linguistics] I had studied a little many years ago), and partly because it was heading toward a conclusion I recognized as being based on too much on the expertise of men with little or no input from God. Some of their opinions and short quotes of supposed experts were included. Some of cited sources were said to favor a supernatural event of languages while on the others favored an easily explainable event, using the knowledge and methods of men, without the need of special miraculous intervention by God. The conclusion, as I see it, was not based much, if at all, on the faith of the writer although he might say that it was. Perhaps faith in himself and his reasoning abilities, but faith in God... I believe not! Not knowing the man I go only based on this particular writing which is certainly insufficient know him.

I skimmed through to the conclusion, which I read a little more carefully, but I readily admit I was already looking more at the purpose of the writing than his conclusion. I believe that the writer, by sifting through the educated efforts of men, intended to decide whether we should accept that part of Acts chapter 2 as a supernatural event or not...

While trying to read I was soon distracted. What distracted me more than the admittedly failing powers of my tiring old flesh was what I saw as an underlying purpose, which to be fair, the writer himself may not have seen or intended.

None of us, not me, nor the writer, nor any of the readers here, were there on that day of Pentecost about 2000 years ago. Also none of us were physically present when Jesus was born in Bethlehem, nor did we witness with our carnal eyes and ears all that is described in the 4 gospels. We are supposed to live for God by faith! That also is written in the scriptures for anyone to read [Hab 2:4 & Heb 10:38], which is defined in Heb 11:1.

Man's knowledge by his own efforts and abilities always has been and continues to be, as I see it, a thorn in the flesh of real believers in God when and if they pay too much attention to such knowledge and not enough attention to the lead of the Holy Spirit... that is to say, not enough attention to God's message! Those who doubt what I say should read I Corinthians chapter 13 hopefully with understanding.


There are descriptions of what any man probably would call miracles throughout the scriptures, but what we have, as I see it, in this writing is an effort to distract us from God's message by focusing on the letter of the described event in Acts 2. While we are at it, perhaps we should also consider whether Jesus was born of a virgin; and whether he performed the miracles described in the gospels; and whether or not he was really clinically dead according to the guidelines provided by medical science; or whether it is really possible that he arose from that death?

The writer and his supporters would undoubtedly disagree, but to me the distraction is rooted in what carnal men have continued to receive from the father of liars [John 8:44] from the beginning according to the scriptures. The lies continue and as people, believers even, bend or are bent in favor the lies, God is eventually left out completely.


Speaking in unknown tongues or the interpretation of unknowns tongues or believing differently about unknown tongues is apparently offensive to some and seemingly it is more important to debunk supposed opposition believes than to simply leave it in God's hands. Again, we live for God by faith; not by knowledge!

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Heb 11:1
 

amadeus

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The reason I ever read it in the first place, is that I honestly do think the same old canned "Shanda la sha bamba" I hear so many preachers blurt out is as phony as a three dollar bill...… even though I DO believe a miracle of HEARING went on that day at Pentecost.

One thing that struck me is that, for decades, I have also jumped to the erroneous conclusion that because 15 locations were listed in Acts 2, that there had to have been at least 15 different languages heard (The author keeps saying, "spoken.")
Those "canned" tongues of the many preachers you have heard may well be either a false tongue, or baby talk. I have no doubt that both exist! When a human child is born to his mother for quite a while he makes sounds which are often described as babble for that is what they are. He does not come out of the birth canal speaking perfect English or whatever the language of his parents is. It takes time. There really are people who speak with tongues by the Spirit of God, but haver never proceeded beyond baby talk perhaps because that is how they have served God. But... having said that, not every person with a gift of tongues from God has remained in infancy.

I have been speaking in "tongues" beyond my English, Spanish and German since 1976. In the beginning it was sporadic and undoubtedly was baby talk, babble, but that has not been the case for a long time. For many years I have spoke daily to God in tongues and it is definitely Not babble! Praise His name!
 
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Angelina

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I also speak in tongues and have done so for many years. Mostly used in my prayer life but on the occasion, in the body of Christ.

I have read as much as I could in regards to this article and found it a fascinating alternative explanation to Acts 2:1-13. Noted also an article by Doug Ward which gave more insight regarding this very interesting topic. What Languages Were Spoken on Pentecost in Acts 2?
 
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Waiting on him

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If you have the maturity to read something all the way through, carefully and slowly, without judging, you might like this article.
If you lack that ability, don't bother opening this. (It isn't being placed here to listen to arguments about how you "know" what is correct. It's probably too long for you, anyway. LOL)


A New Look At Tongues
Hey Willie, haven’t really had an opportunity to give the article the attention I’d like to, but from what I’ve read so far...... very interesting and also very revealing, that is my narrow mindedness.

I believe narrow mindedness is definitely contagious and just wanted to say thanks for the offering all here the opportunity to see beyond the bubble.
 

Waiting on him

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Isaiah 28:11-15 KJV
[11] For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. [12] To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. [13] But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. [14] Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. [15] Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:


Tecarta Bible
 
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prism

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A lengthy article for this conclusion...
Now there is a meaning for "other tongues" that most would never have imagined. Clearly the phrase takes on a new but simple meaning--"other than Hebrew."
I guess my English can pass as 'other tongues'. lol
 
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Berserk

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Willie T.,

I read the article until it used liberal academic jargon that made me freak out and immediately pray that the author get saved!:eek:
No seriously, it is the best scholarly article on Pentecostalism ever posted on this site. As an ex-NT professor, I can assure you that it invokes the perspectives of major biblical scholars and experts on Judaism.

I just want to add 3 related clarifying thoughts.
(1) The myth that Jews from those regions would speak their unique native languages overlooks the impact of Alexander the Great's earlier conquests, which spread Greek institutions, culture, and language all over the Mediterranean world. This did not change when the Romans later conquered the Greeks. Indeed, Greek culture trumped Roman language and culture throughout the Roman empire. So the primary language of visiting Diaspora Jews would have been Greek.

(2) Aramaic and Hebrew are not different languages, but rather different dialects. The onlookers said they heard their own dialects (Greek: "dialektos"--Acts 2:8). Aramaic speakers could understand Hebrew speakers and vice versa. Galilean Jews who were not Hellenized would normally be expected to speak the Aramaic dialect. What remains in scholarly dispute is how common it was for Jewish peasants in Judea and elsewhere to speak Hebrew. A large cache of Hebrew letters in caves near the Dead Sea has brought that issue to new light.

(3) So what the onlookers likely heard on the Day of Pentecost were eruptions of a cacophony of ecstatic Aramaic, Hebrew, and Greek, which amazed them because the speakers were considered backwater ignorant Galileans.
 
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Child of God

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If you have the maturity to read something all the way through, carefully and slowly, without judging, you might like this article.
If you lack that ability, don't bother opening this. (It isn't being placed here to listen to arguments about how you "know" what is correct. It's probably too long for you, anyway. LOL)


A New Look At Tongues
So if I do not read YOUR POST, I am what names did you call me?

I am trying to be Kosher, I put all but the longest finger of my hand (which I extend) in a fist, and raise it High to you.

It does not matter as you are not mature enough to read this.

You are not intelligent enough to understand what I just said.
 

r1xlx

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If you have the maturity to read something all the way through, carefully and slowly, without judging, you might like this article.
If you lack that ability, don't bother opening this. (It isn't being placed here to listen to arguments about how you "know" what is correct. It's probably too long for you, anyway. LOL)


A New Look At Tongues
There's a guy, nominally Christian, who hands out tracts by the railway station I chat with about Christian matters and he insists that to be born again a person has to speak in tongues.
I quote 1 Corinthians 12:10 To others he gives the ability to speak in different kinds of languages they had not known before. And to still others he gives the ability to explain what was said in those languages. '
I say this means that tongues is a gift that may be given to some who GOD can foreseee will make use of it but it is not an essential outer marker of being saved.
I attended a Pentecostal church a few times where one guy would stand up and holler long strings of what to me sounded like random words without any recognisable speech flow. That church was also strong on slaying in the spirit. The first half hour of each Sunday services was devoted to booming popPraise with a very insistent monotonous drum beat that to me sounded like a means of lowering the congregation's resistance and allow demons to posses them.
Better gifts for me are wisdom, knowledge and recognising evil spirits.
 
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DPMartin

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I'm saying you didn't "read" 9,896 words in five minutes. And that is just what I asked not be done.
so how long do you have to smell horse dump before you recognize its horse dump? 5 minutes was 4.5 minutes to long. and honestly, are we really supposed to care about what you asked? you posted something in public you get what you get.
 

Willie T

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There's a guy, nominally Christian, who hands out tracts by the railway station I chat with about Christian matters and he insists that to be born again a person has to speak in tongues.
I quote 1 Corinthians 12:10 To others he gives the ability to speak in different kinds of languages they had not known before. And to still others he gives the ability to explain what was said in those languages. '
I say this means that tongues is a gift that may be given to some who GOD can foreseee will make use of it but it is not an essential outer marker of being saved.
I attended a Pentecostal church a few times where one guy would stand up and holler long strings of what to me sounded like random words without any recognisable speech flow. That church was also strong on slaying in the spirit. The first half hour of each Sunday services was devoted to booming popPraise with a very insistent monotonous drum beat that to me sounded like a means of lowering the congregation's resistance and allow demons to posses them.
Better gifts for me are wisdom, knowledge and recognising evil spirits.
I see you didn't read the article either. LOL
 

DPMartin

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As already noted . . . Not just what they were speaking, the languages of their birthplaces, wasn't it?

Much love!
that's also a good point.

these theologies or theories keep cropping up in Christianity like scientists that keep evidence that fits their theories and disregard the rest as erroneous data because it doesn't fit their theories. which in turn are attempts to erode confidence in what the scriptures actually say.

the same thing that the serpent did at the tree:



Gen 3:4  And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 
Gen 3:5  For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 

attempting to erode her confidence that God is to be believed and trusted, corrupting her knowledge and understanding in what God actually said.

same thing is demonstrated in the link in the OP. it stinks like poop and it looks like poop, you don't have to taste it to know its poop.
 
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