Earburner
Well-Known Member
Splitting hairs ain't the word for it, you people are getting lost in your word salad!
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Earburner
Well-Known Member
Helloooo! What's a parable?
The rich man and Laz is based on the same principal. A fictional story to deliver a truth. Aesop's Fables are akin to parables.
Harvest 1874
Well-Known Member
God's word does not contradict itself, if we find one area in which it states one thing and another where it "seems" to say something in contradiction then we can be assure that the fault lies not with the word of God but with ourselves and with our own understanding and/or lack thereof.
In many cases such as this the problem is simply our attempting to take something which is clearly meant as a figurative illustration (a parable) and trying to force a literal interpretation upon it based upon our own or someone else's beliefs or opinions.
If we were to accept this parable as a literal statement of facts rather than as a symbolic or figurative illustration then we would not only find ourselves faced with a number of absurdities, but likewise we would have found a direct contradiction in the word of God, an impossibility.
The dead cannot lift up their eyes, nor converse; for it is distinctly stated, "Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device (reason or awareness) or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going." (Eccl 9:10)
Likewise it is stated:
Death is a place of darkness (Job 10:21); of no remembrance (Psa 6:5); a land of forgetfulness (Psa 88:11)
No my friend it is you who are "messed up theologically" if you believe the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus to be a literal statement of facts. It is apparent that you did not honestly take the time to read the blog posts referred to.
“Wisdom calls aloud outside; she raises her voice in the open squares. She cries out in the chief concourses, at the openings of the gates in the city. She speaks her words: “How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity (prefer to remain in ignorance)? For scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge.” (Prov 1:20-22)
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
Psalm 138:2 KJV
[2] I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
Barney, can you say Jesus is Lord?
Tecarta Bible[/QUOTE]
I recognize him as my Lord not only because he is our divinely appointed Repurchaser and Owner by virtue of his ransom sacrifice (1Co 6:20;7:22, 23; 1Pe 1:18, 19; Jude 4) but also because of his kingly position and authority. It was in the full regal as well as priestly authority represented by Jesus’ name that his followers preached (Ac 5:29-32, 40-42), baptized disciples (Mt 28:18-20; Ac 2:38; compare 1Co 1:13-15), disfellowshipped immoral persons (1Co 5:4, 5), and exhorted and instructed the Christian congregations they shepherded (1Co 1:10; 2Th 3:6). It follows, then, that those approved for life by Jesus could never put faith in, or render allegiance to, some other “name” as representing God’s authority to rule but must show unbreakable loyalty to the “name” of this divinely commissioned King, the Lord Jesus Christ.—Mt 12:18, 21; Re 2:13; 3:8;
I recognize him as my Lord not only because he is our divinely appointed Repurchaser and Owner by virtue of his ransom sacrifice (1Co 6:20;7:22, 23; 1Pe 1:18, 19; Jude 4) but also because of his kingly position and authority. It was in the full regal as well as priestly authority represented by Jesus’ name that his followers preached (Ac 5:29-32, 40-42), baptized disciples (Mt 28:18-20; Ac 2:38; compare 1Co 1:13-15), disfellowshipped immoral persons (1Co 5:4, 5), and exhorted and instructed the Christian congregations they shepherded (1Co 1:10; 2Th 3:6). It follows, then, that those approved for life by Jesus could never put faith in, or render allegiance to, some other “name” as representing God’s authority to rule but must show unbreakable loyalty to the “name” of this divinely commissioned King, the Lord Jesus Christ.—Mt 12:18, 21; Re 2:13; 3:8;[/QUOTE]
You are pretty close to Kosher on that.
There is nothing jumping out at me that I need d to address.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
I recognize him as my Lord not only because he is our divinely appointed Repurchaser and Owner by virtue of his ransom sacrifice (1Co 6:20;7:22, 23; 1Pe 1:18, 19; Jude 4) but also because of his kingly position and authority. It was in the full regal as well as priestly authority represented by Jesus’ name that his followers preached (Ac 5:29-32, 40-42), baptized disciples (Mt 28:18-20; Ac 2:38; compare 1Co 1:13-15), disfellowshipped immoral persons (1Co 5:4, 5), and exhorted and instructed the Christian congregations they shepherded (1Co 1:10; 2Th 3:6). It follows, then, that those approved for life by Jesus could never put faith in, or render allegiance to, some other “name” as representing God’s authority to rule but must show unbreakable loyalty to the “name” of this divinely commissioned King, the Lord Jesus Christ.—Mt 12:18, 21; Re 2:13; 3:8;[/QUOTE]
Isaiah 12:2-4 KJV
[2] Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the Lord Jehovah is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation. [3] Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation. [4] And in that day shall ye say, Praise the Lord, call upon his name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his name is exalted.
Tecarta Bible
Harvest 1874
Well-Known Member
"Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! Then also those who have fallen ASLEEP IN CHRIST have perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable." (1 Cor 15:12-19)
"But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
By reason of his death our souls do not die in the full sense of the word, but are Scripturally said to fall asleep. It is through Jesus (The word Jesus means "Savior") that the race previously extinct in Adam has hope of an awakening.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep (Those of the Church already dead). For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ (Applicable only to the elect Church, who are reckoned as dying with Christ their Redeemer) will rise first." (1 Thess 4:13-16)
A distinction is thus made here between those who "sleep in Christ" and those who "sleep in Jesus".
The world sleeps in Jesus, the Church, as members of Christ body, sleep in Christ until their resurrection.
In Jesus parables, he used real world illustrations. A farmer goes out to plant a field... A sheep is is lost or coin is lost... He did not create fantasy worlds. And he especially would not teach a false doctrine of who God was and how he rewards and punishes. That would make him a false teacher.
Well if you take what David and Solomon said in poetic verses about death over Jesus' clear teaching, I have to wonder about your theology. They don't contradict Jesus' teaching, they are just incomplete.
All scriptures used to teach soul-sleep clearly refer to the body which does sleep in the dust of the earth until the resurrection of the body (Daniel 12:2; John 5:28-29). The body is the only part of man that dies at physical death (James 2:26). The reason it dies is because the inner man, the life of the body, leaves the body. It then goes back to dust and is spoken of as being asleep.
“To me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose, I cannot tell. I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better."
Paul understood that to die was to be with Christ. Not to slumber until the final judgement.
He says the same thing in 2 Corinthians 5:6–9, “We are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him.” So, dying in the body means going to be at home with the Lord.
Earburner
Well-Known Member
All of that is speaking of equality.
In the Eyes of God, we all are equally sinners. There are none that are worse than another in sin. All are equal as sinners.
The same applies to the Lord's salvation. By His Grace, there are none better than another. Matthew 5:19.
All are made equal in His Righteousness, through faith in His Sacrifice, and the shedding of His Blood. Matthew 5:20
That's correct. It is a reference to the unique ascension of Christ (which He already anticipated). Furthermore it is a reference to the unique Son of Man, who is also the Son of God (who was in Heaven at the same time that He was on earth).
At the time Christ spoke those words, Enoch and Elijah were already in Heaven. And after the resurrection of Christ, ALL the OT saints were taken to Heaven. So Heaven (the New Jerusalem within Heaven) is populated with all the OT saints as well as all the NT saints who died after the resurrection of Christ (starting with the martyr Stephen).
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
You know Windmillcharge, I am amazed anyone with even a basic understanding of the events surrounding the death and resurrection of Jesus would still hold to the view of the thief being with Jesus in Paradise that day.
Firstly it is clear that Jesus didn't go to Paradise that day and to be consistent, if one looks at the text one can see that the coma has been placed in the wrong spot. It should read 'verily I say unto you today, you will be with me in Paradise" The coma is to be after 'today' not before it.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Tell me Enoch what you understand as 'soul sleep'...a term that scripture doesn't use and secondly, why do you think it is a false doctrine?
VictoryinJesus
Well-Known Member
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So many varied views. I’d forgotten until you brought it up. Hebrews 12:22-23 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, [23] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Earburner
Well-Known Member
Fictional writers also use real world terms and realities in their stories. You have not ever read a fictional story that was made up, that it didn't sound real?
Evidently you have never read Aesop's Fables, that tell a made up story, in order deliver knowledge about social behavior!
Here is one for example:
The Goatherd & the Wild Goats
One cold stormy day a Goatherd drove his Goats for shelter into a cave, where a number of Wild Goats had also found their way. The Shepherd wanted to make the Wild Goats part of his flock; so he fed them well. But to his own flock, he gave only just enough food to keep them alive. When the weather cleared, and the Shepherd led the Goats out to feed, the Wild Goats scampered off to the hills.
"Is that the thanks I get for feeding you and treating you so well?" complained the Shepherd.
"Do not expect us to join your flock," replied one of the Wild Goats. "We know how you would treat us later on, if some strangers should come as we did."
[The lesson to be learned from the story:]
It is unwise to treat old friends badly for the sake of new ones.
Library of Congress Aesop Fables
Likewise, the parables of Jesus have a lesson to be learned from His stories.
As for "The Rich man an Lazaruth", the message is to the Jews: "...neither will they be persuaded [to repent] though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:30-31
Earburner
Well-Known Member
Surely it wasn't into Heaven!!
Why? Jesus said so: John 3
[13] And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Exactly. The OT saints are the spirits of just men made perfect. The NT saints are the general assembly and Church of the firstborn. All these are "written in Heaven" because they all dwell in Heaven, and will remain in the heavenly New Jerusalem for eternity.
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