No-one has gone to heaven?

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Enoch111

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Tell me Enoch what you understand as 'soul sleep'...a term that scripture doesn't use and secondly, why do you think it is a false doctrine?
The reason I say it is a false doctrine is because (1) Sheol/Hades is wrongly translated as the grave or the pit and (2) sleep is merely a metaphor for death, where a corpse laid in the grave gives the appearance of repose or sleep. Eventually that corpse turns into dust. There is no one sleeping six feet under the soil. Just dust. Not dust and ashes, but just dust, as Adam was told. He was taken from dust and would return to dust. So does every human being.

Death (physical death) is the SEPARATION of the soul and spirit from the body. But where do the souls and spirits go? Once again Sheol and Hades were both wrongly translated as *hell*, but Hell is Gehenna -- the Lake of Fire, created for the devil and his angels.

Jesus said that He would be in *the heart of the earth* or *the lower parts of the earth* for three days and three nights (while His body lay in the tomb): For as [Jonah] was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (Mt 12:40) That is Sheol/Hades, --- the region of departed spirits -- located near the core of the earth.

While Jesus did not also say that Jonah was in Sheol/Hades while he was in the whale's belly, Jonah told us that he was actually there: Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of SHEOL (mistakenly translated as *hell*) cried I, and thou heardest my voice. (Jonah 2:1,2)

We know from Luke 16 that there were actually TWO COMPARTMENTS in Sheol/Hades -- one for the righteous dead (called "Abraham's bosom") and the other for the unrighteous dead (a place of torment to which the Rich Man went). So Jonah was in Sheol/Hades for three days and three nights, and so was Christ.

Until Christ's resurrection, all the OT saints (their souls and spirits) were *silent* in Sheol, in the sense that they did not communicate with the living. But Jonah was not silent when he cried out to the LORD. As we know from Luke 16, they were able to communicate, and Abraham communicated with the Rich Man in Sheol/Hades. However, after the resurrection of Christ, all the OT saints were taken to Heaven from Sheol/Hades (Eph 4:8-10). And since then all the NT saints have gone directly to Heaven (Heb 12:22-24). And no one is sleeping in Heaven, since Paul calls them a *great cloud of witnesses*. Witnesses see and hear what they witness.

And these all [the OT saints], having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise [of the Holy Spirit before Pentecost]:God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect [by receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit]. Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, (Heb 11:39,40; 12:1)

All of this should tell us that Soul Sleep is a false doctrine, and the death of Stephen and what transpired there (Acts 7 & 8) confirms this.
 
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r1xlx

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God's word does not contradict itself, if we find one area in which it states one thing and another where it "seems" to say something in contradiction then we can be assure that the fault lies not with the word of God but with ourselves and with our own understanding and/or lack thereof.

In many cases such as this the problem is simply our attempting to take something which is clearly meant as a figurative illustration (a parable) and trying to force a literal interpretation upon it based upon our own or someone else's beliefs or opinions.

If we were to accept this parable as a literal statement of facts rather than as a symbolic or figurative illustration then we would not only find ourselves faced with a number of absurdities, but likewise we would have found a direct contradiction in the word of God, an impossibility.

The dead cannot lift up their eyes, nor converse; for it is distinctly stated, "Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device (reason or awareness) or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going." (Eccl 9:10)

Likewise it is stated:

Death is a place of darkness (Job 10:21); of no remembrance (Psa 6:5); a land of forgetfulness (Psa 88:11)

No my friend it is you who are "messed up theologically" if you believe the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus to be a literal statement of facts. It is apparent that you did not honestly take the time to read the blog posts referred to.

Wisdom calls aloud outside; she raises her voice in the open squares. She cries out in the chief concourses, at the openings of the gates in the city. She speaks her words: “How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity (prefer to remain in ignorance)? For scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge.” (Prov 1:20-22)
I too have met many so-called Christians who believe they evolved from monkeys, fly off to heaven at death and all gods of all cults are teh same as GOD YAHWEH!
No matter what scriptures we quote they will not understand as their eyes are dimmed and ears blocked.
But let's keep on trying!
 

r1xlx

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I recognize him as my Lord not only because he is our divinely appointed Repurchaser and Owner by virtue of his ransom sacrifice (1Co 6:20;7:22, 23; 1Pe 1:18, 19; Jude 4) but also because of his kingly position and authority. It was in the full regal as well as priestly authority represented by Jesus’ name that his followers preached (Ac 5:29-32, 40-42), baptized disciples (Mt 28:18-20; Ac 2:38; compare 1Co 1:13-15), disfellowshipped immoral persons (1Co 5:4, 5), and exhorted and instructed the Christian congregations they shepherded (1Co 1:10; 2Th 3:6). It follows, then, that those approved for life by Jesus could never put faith in, or render allegiance to, some other “name” as representing God’s authority to rule but must show unbreakable loyalty to the “name” of this divinely commissioned King, the Lord Jesus Christ.—Mt 12:18, 21; Re 2:13; 3:8;

You are pretty close to Kosher on that.
There is nothing jumping out at me that I need d to address.[/QUOTE]
All scriptures used to teach soul-sleep clearly refer to the body which does sleep in the dust of the earth until the resurrection of the body (Daniel 12:2; John 5:28-29). The body is the only part of man that dies at physical death (James 2:26). The reason it dies is because the inner man, the life of the body, leaves the body. It then goes back to dust and is spoken of as being asleep.

“To me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose, I cannot tell. I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better."

Paul understood that to die was to be with Christ. Not to slumber until the final judgement.

He says the same thing in 2 Corinthians 5:6–9, “We are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him.” So, dying in the body means going to be at home with the Lord.

Renniks, You lack understanding by picking out single verses instead of reading and understanding thea entire passage to get the full meaning.
You saying Paul's words meant on dying he would be with Christ in heaven - yet the passage quite clearly shows Paul was once again in prison from preaching the gospel - was pointing out that life with Jesus would be better. He was not lying and claiming that on dying he'd float off to heaven.
 

quietthinker

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The reason I say it is a false doctrine is because (1) Sheol/Hades is wrongly translated as the grave or the pit and (2) sleep is merely a metaphor for death, where a corpse laid in the grave gives the appearance of repose or sleep. Eventually that corpse turns into dust. There is no one sleeping six feet under the soil. Just dust. Not dust and ashes, but just dust, as Adam was told. He was taken from dust and would return to dust. So does every human being.

Death (physical death) is the SEPARATION of the soul and spirit from the body. But where do the souls and spirits go? Once again Sheol and Hades were both wrongly translated as *hell*, but Hell is Gehenna -- the Lake of Fire, created for the devil and his angels.

Jesus said that He would be in *the heart of the earth* or *the lower parts of the earth* for three days and three nights (while His body lay in the tomb): For as [Jonah] was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (Mt 12:40) That is Sheol/Hades, --- the region of departed spirits -- located near the core of the earth.

While Jesus did not also say that Jonah was in Sheol/Hades while he was in the whale's belly, Jonah told us that he was actually there: Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of SHEOL (mistakenly translated as *hell*) cried I, and thou heardest my voice. (Jonah 2:1,2)

We know from Luke 16 that there were actually TWO COMPARTMENTS in Sheol/Hades -- one for the righteous dead (called "Abraham's bosom") and the other for the unrighteous dead (a place of torment to which the Rich Man went). So Jonah was in Sheol/Hades for three days and three nights, and so was Christ.

Until Christ's resurrection, all the OT saints (their souls and spirits) were *silent* in Sheol, in the sense that they did not communicate with the living. But Jonah was not silent when he cried out to the LORD. As we know from Luke 16, they were able to communicate, and Abraham communicated with the Rich Man in Sheol/Hades. However, after the resurrection of Christ, all the OT saints were taken to Heaven from Sheol/Hades (Eph 4:8-10). And since then all the NT saints have gone directly to Heaven (Heb 12:22-24). And no one is sleeping in Heaven, since Paul calls them a *great cloud of witnesses*. Witnesses see and hear what they witness.

And these all [the OT saints], having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise [of the Holy Spirit before Pentecost]:God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect [by receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit]. Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, (Heb 11:39,40; 12:1)

All of this should tell us that Soul Sleep is a false doctrine, and the death of Stephen and what transpired there (Acts 7 & 8) confirms this.
Thanks for your reply Enoch, however The word Sheol is Hebrew for 'the grave pit' or 'mankind's common grave'. Sheol is not a place, rather than a period of time while people are dead and waiting to be resurrected. Sheol is the most common word substituted by the word hell. The scriptures that describe the characteristics of Sheol explain it to be exactly how we would describe our dead; buried underground, no consciousness, no knowledge, no pain, no joy, no hope. King Solomon explained the unconscious state of the dead in detail when describing sheol-

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 .. For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.

Ecclesiastes 9:10...Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

The word Hades is from Greek mythology, the word is used for Sheol denoting a dark region of the dead.

Another Greek word that is translated hell is 'Gehenna'. Gehenna is derived from the Hebrew 'ge hinnom' or the valley of Hinnom. It is also called Tophet or the valley of dead bones. In O.T times godless Kings of Israel practiced child sacrifice here to Molech. These practices were stopped by Josiah and the valley became the dumping ground for the sewage and refuse of the city. It was a place crawling with worms and maggots. Fires burnt continually to destroy the garbage and impurities. Hence the name Gehenna came to be used as a symbol for punishment. From this valley putrid smoke arose continually.

When quoting Luke 16, using Greek 'Hades' and Hebrew 'Sheol' inventing two compartments as if they were literal, you misapply their meaning.
Jesus in his story of Abraham and Lazarus used this popular myth to make a point not to divulge information on the state of the dead but to highlight that 'if they believe not Moses and the Prophets neither will they believe if one rose from the dead.' He was alluding to his own resurrection.

The question is, why is the scripture so emphatic about the dead not knowing anything ie, no consciousness? Not only because it is the case but because any belief otherwise opens the door for so called communication with the dead when these so called 'dead' are none other than demons impersonating those who have died. It becomes a direct line of communication with the Prince of Darkness. It is through this channel (spiritualism) that many will be deceived in the churches.
 
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r1xlx

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I've given up with several churches and many Christians who do not understand Ecclesiates 9!
And most do not understand Genesis but claim they are evolved from monkeys.
It seems that theology colleges teach how to venerate old churches, artefacts and evolutionists but not much Bible truth!
 

Earburner

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Exactly. The OT saints are the spirits of just men made perfect. The NT saints are the general assembly and Church of the firstborn. All these are "written in Heaven" because they all dwell in Heaven, and will remain in the heavenly New Jerusalem for eternity.
1. So then according your thinking, all we will ever be is our "names are written in Heaven"? Not so.
2. And when did it happen that the OT saints were "made perfect"? You don't know how.
Answers:
1. John 3:3-8 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
2.
 

Earburner

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^ 2. On Pentecost all the OT saints who died in faith, received the Holy Spirit (white robes) Revelation 6:9-11
 

Earburner

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Thanks for your reply Enoch, however The word Sheol is Hebrew for 'the grave pit' or 'mankind's common grave'. Sheol is not a place, rather than a period of time while people are dead and waiting to be resurrected. Sheol is the most common word substituted by the word hell. The scriptures that describe the characteristics of Sheol explain it to be exactly how we would describe our dead; buried underground, no consciousness, no knowledge, no pain, no joy, no hope. King Solomon explained the unconscious state of the dead in detail when describing sheol-

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 .. For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.

Ecclesiastes 9:10...Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

The word Hades is from Greek mythology, the word is used for Sheol denoting a dark region of the dead.

Another Greek word that is translated hell is 'Gehenna'. Gehenna is derived from the Hebrew 'ge hinnom' or the valley of Hinnom. It is also called Tophet or the valley of dead bones. In O.T times godless Kings of Israel practiced child sacrifice here to Molech. These practices were stopped by Josiah and the valley became the dumping ground for the sewage and refuse of the city. It was a place crawling with worms and maggots. Fires burnt continually to destroy the garbage and impurities. Hence the name Gehenna came to be used as a symbol for punishment. From this valley putrid smoke arose continually.

When quoting Luke 16, using Greek 'Hades' and Hebrew 'Sheol' inventing two compartments as if they were literal, you misapply their meaning.
Jesus in his story of Abraham and Lazarus used this popular myth to make a point not to divulge information on the state of the dead but to highlight that 'if they believe not Moses and the Prophets neither will they believe if one rose from the dead.' He was alluding to his own resurrection.

The question is, why is the scripture so emphatic about the dead not knowing anything ie, no consciousness? Not only because it is the case but because any belief otherwise opens the door for so called communication with the dead when these so called 'dead' are none other than demons impersonating those who have died. It becomes a direct line of communication with the Prince of Darkness. It is through this channel (spiritualism) that many will be deceived in the churches.
All of what you explained is true for all who are not born again of God's Holy Spirit.
However since Christ first appeared, all born again Christians have escaped the complete deadness of our being.
We have been permanently "quickened" (made alive to God), and even in death we remain so, because the Gift of His Eternal life is through the Person of His Holy Spirit by faith, and is freely given to us without repentance by God. 1 John 5:13 and Romans 11:12
[13] And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
God the Father and God the Son in us, is not dead in the grave. Romans 8:9

The OT saints who had died in faith, are now asleep in Jesus. They also did receive the Gift of God's Holy Spirit on the Day Pentecost, but are still waiting for Jesus to return for us all.
Revelation 6:9-11
 

VictoryinJesus

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All of that is speaking of equality.
In the Eyes of God, we all are equally sinners. There are none that are worse than another in sin. All are equal as sinners.
The same applies to the Lord's salvation. By His Grace, there are none better than another. Matthew 5:19.
All are made equal in His Righteousness, through faith in His Sacrifice, and the shedding of His Blood. Matthew 5:20

Yes. John knew of this “He must increase, but I must decrease.” John 3:30-31 He must increase, but I must decrease. [31] He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

It is by Him we are lifted up. Concerning “He that comes from above is above all: he that is of earth is earthly, and speaks of the earth: he that comes from heaven is above all.”

1 Corinthians 15:45-49 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. [46] Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. [47] The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. [48] As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. [49] And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

of course it is Him which “He that comes from above is above all...not “speaks of earth” as He said “I am from above. You are of this world. I am not of this world.” But then what is born again? “As is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.” 1 Corinthians 2:11-14 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. [12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. [13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. [14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Adam was made a “living soul”
The Last Adam a “quickening Spirit”
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Regardless Where the Spirit is there is Life. Having passed from death unto Life 1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
 

Enoch111

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Sheol is not a place, rather than a period of time while people are dead and waiting to be resurrected.
Now you are simply reiterating what you have been told and misdirected with.

If Sheol/Hades is not a place, where did Christ go and preach to the spirits in prison????? Where was He for three days and three nights???
"In a period of time"??? Some kind of time warp??? You know better than that.
 

Renniks

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Fictional writers also use real world terms and realities in their stories. You have not ever read a fictional story that was made up, that it didn't sound real?
Evidently you have never read Aesop's Fables, that tell a made up story, in order deliver knowledge about social behavior!
Here is one for example:
The Goatherd & the Wild Goats
the-goatherd-and-the-wild-goats.jpg

One cold stormy day a Goatherd drove his Goats for shelter into a cave, where a number of Wild Goats had also found their way. The Shepherd wanted to make the Wild Goats part of his flock; so he fed them well. But to his own flock, he gave only just enough food to keep them alive. When the weather cleared, and the Shepherd led the Goats out to feed, the Wild Goats scampered off to the hills.

"Is that the thanks I get for feeding you and treating you so well?" complained the Shepherd.

"Do not expect us to join your flock," replied one of the Wild Goats. "We know how you would treat us later on, if some strangers should come as we did."

[The lesson to be learned from the story:]
It is unwise to treat old friends badly for the sake of new ones.
Library of Congress Aesop Fables

Likewise, the parables of Jesus have a lesson to be learned from His stories.
As for "The Rich man an Lazaruth", the message is to the Jews: "...neither will they be persuaded [to repent] though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:30-31
My point stands. I've read tons of fiction. Of course they have a message. But his parables are set in real life situations. And he doesn't usually use names, which to me, makes it more than a parable. Jesus could have just as easily said that the poor man just rose from his grave, and tried to teach people, and left the whole part about heaven and hell out, if that was his only point.
 

Renniks

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You are pretty close to Kosher on that.
There is nothing jumping out at me that I need d to address.


Renniks, You lack understanding by picking out single verses instead of reading and understanding thea entire passage to get the full meaning.
You saying Paul's words meant on dying he would be with Christ in heaven - yet the passage quite clearly shows Paul was once again in prison from preaching the gospel - was pointing out that life with Jesus would be better. He was not lying and claiming that on dying he'd float off to heaven.[/QUOTE]
Right.
You haven't given any scripture that supports your false doctrine, so?
 

Renniks

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Fictional writers also use real world terms and realities in their stories. You have not ever read a fictional story that was made up, that it didn't sound real?
Evidently you have never read Aesop's Fables, that tell a made up story, in order deliver knowledge about social behavior!
Here is one for example:
The Goatherd & the Wild Goats
the-goatherd-and-the-wild-goats.jpg

One cold stormy day a Goatherd drove his Goats for shelter into a cave, where a number of Wild Goats had also found their way. The Shepherd wanted to make the Wild Goats part of his flock; so he fed them well. But to his own flock, he gave only just enough food to keep them alive. When the weather cleared, and the Shepherd led the Goats out to feed, the Wild Goats scampered off to the hills.

"Is that the thanks I get for feeding you and treating you so well?" complained the Shepherd.

"Do not expect us to join your flock," replied one of the Wild Goats. "We know how you would treat us later on, if some strangers should come as we did."

[The lesson to be learned from the story:]
It is unwise to treat old friends badly for the sake of new ones.
Library of Congress Aesop Fables

Likewise, the parables of Jesus have a lesson to be learned from His stories.
As for "The Rich man an Lazaruth", the message is to the Jews: "...neither will they be persuaded [to repent] though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:30-31
BTW, comparing Jesus parables to Aesop's fables, should make you more than a little queasy. Jesus wasn't telling fairy tales, with a nice little moral at the end. He was teaching deep spiritual truths.
 

VictoryinJesus

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BTW, comparing Jesus parables to Aesop's fables, should make you more than a little queasy. Jesus wasn't telling fairy tales, with a nice little moral at the end. He was teaching deep spiritual truths.

why is the great gulf never considered. What is a gulf or divide? A chasm. (afar off)? Ephesians 2:16-18 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: [17] And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. [18] For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Who is the repairer of the “breach”? Isaiah 58:12 ... The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.

(chasma, "a chasm," "vent," "a gaping opening"--a great interval; from chaino, "to gape" or "yawn"):

Occurs only in Luke 16:26, "Between us and you there is a great gulf fixed" (compare "afar off" in 16:23). This is very different from, though it probably reflects, the rabbinical conception of the separation between the two compartments of Hades (Sheol) by "a hand's breadth," "a wall," or even, later, "a chasm," as the parable can be given here only a figurative significance, and is of purely ethical import. The fundamental difference between the Rich Man and Lazarus lies not in their conditions but in their characters. For "besides all this" (16:26) the Revised Version, margin gives "in all these things," thus implying that the moral distinctions which exist in this life (16:25) become more pronounced ("fixed") in the next world, and the "gulf" is impassable in the sense that a change of condition will not necessarily produce a change of soul. ^ google but take “a wall”

a wall” Ephesians 2:13-14 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. [14] For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us ;

1 Corinthians 12:25 That there should be no schism (split or division)in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
 

quietthinker

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Now you are simply reiterating what you have been told and misdirected with.

If Sheol/Hades is not a place, where did Christ go and preach to the spirits in prison????? Where was He for three days and three nights???
"In a period of time"??? Some kind of time warp??? You know better than that.
Jesus didn't go anywhere...he was dead. He died the second death for all who have faith in him.

I do not really understand what that text means about preaching to the Spirits in prison; what I do understand though is that it is not sufficient information to generate the understanding that you have of the state of the dead particularly in the light of Solomons pronouncements and many other scriptures that support that view.
 

Earburner

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My point stands. I've read tons of fiction. Of course they have a message. But his parables are set in real life situations. And he doesn't usually use names, which to me, makes it more than a parable. Jesus could have just as easily said that the poor man just rose from his grave, and tried to teach people, and left the whole part about heaven and hell out, if that was his only point.
Likewise, the parables of Jesus have a lesson to be learned from His stories.

As for "The Rich man and Lazaruth",
the message is to the Jews: "...neither will they be persuaded [to repent] though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:30-31

Question to you: by that parable, who was it that rose from the dead, and the Jews are still not persuaded to repent towards God, through Him?

Other than the correct answer, the story means NOTHING ELSE!!
 

Renniks

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Other than the correct answer, the story means NOTHING ELSE!!
Why are you so insistent about it not having another meaning?
Could it be because, Jesus teaches here that heaven and hell are both real, literal places and your whole doctrine rests on that not being true?
When believers die, they are immediately in the conscious fellowship and joys of heaven.
When unbelievers die, they are immediately in the conscious pain, suffering, and torment of hell.
There's much more to learn here like:
Riches won't save you.
Life here is short, and what we gain here can't be carried over, except for our faith.
It's better to be poor and depend on God then to have much and lose your soul.
 

Truth

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It comes from when everyone was at last nominally 'christian' and because that was believed of everyone, hen what Jesus said to the repentant thief, " today you will be with Me" it is assumed that is true of all Christians.

One must understand, all early Manuscripts were without Punctuation. So when Jesus Said! Verily I say unto you Today! You will be with Me In Paradise ! Jesus knew the Thief's thought's, and the Intent of His Heart, and knew he was truly repentant, also knowing the thief would SIN no more, we do not sin after death! His name was written in the Lambs book of Life, so after the last Resurrection, the thief will be admitted into the Kingdom! At the Great white Throne of Judgment, His Slate will be Clean!!!!!!
 

Earburner

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why is the great gulf never considered. What is a gulf or divide? A chasm. (afar off)? Ephesians 2:16-18 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: [17] And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. [18] For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Who is the repairer of the “breach”? Isaiah 58:12 ... The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.

(chasma, "a chasm," "vent," "a gaping opening"--a great interval; from chaino, "to gape" or "yawn"):

Occurs only in Luke 16:26, "Between us and you there is a great gulf fixed" (compare "afar off" in 16:23). This is very different from, though it probably reflects, the rabbinical conception of the separation between the two compartments of Hades (Sheol) by "a hand's breadth," "a wall," or even, later, "a chasm," as the parable can be given here only a figurative significance, and is of purely ethical import. The fundamental difference between the Rich Man and Lazarus lies not in their conditions but in their characters. For "besides all this" (16:26) the Revised Version, margin gives "in all these things," thus implying that the moral distinctions which exist in this life (16:25) become more pronounced ("fixed") in the next world, and the "gulf" is impassable in the sense that a change of condition will not necessarily produce a change of soul. ^ google but take “a wall”

a wall” Ephesians 2:13-14 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. [14] For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us ;

1 Corinthians 12:25 That there should be no schism (split or division)in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
Lets keep it simple! Parables are built on fictitious stories with symbolism.

The symbolism of a great gulf is nothing more than the reality of those who have the Holy Spirit of God, and those who do not have the Holy Spirit of God. For those who don't,
they are none of His!! Luke 11:13 Romans 8:8-9
Matthew 13:24-43
 

Earburner

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Why are you so insistent about it not having another meaning?
Could it be because, Jesus teaches here that heaven and hell are both real, literal places and your whole doctrine rests on that not being true?
When believers die, they are immediately in the conscious fellowship and joys of heaven.
When unbelievers die, they are immediately in the conscious pain, suffering, and torment of hell.
There's much more to learn here like:
Riches won't save you.
Life here is short, and what we gain here can't be carried over, except for our faith.
It's better to be poor and depend on God then to have much and lose your soul.
If you listen to the story words describing what the rich man and Laz are saying and doing while dead, its very much laughable.
 
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