Refuting Cessationism: Spiritual Gifts, Tongues, Miracles Haven’t Ceased Pentocost!!

My knee was sore like a rusty old hinge but I had it prayed over and just tested it 3 years later and still as smooth as a new one.
Trouble is that Methodist, Anglican and Catholic ministers, preists etc don't do any healing as they are all concerned with theology but are not Christians. I don't know if any Jew rabbi does healing - do they?

DoveSpirit05 said:

This is completely bogous and asinine and unbiblical

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The other side of the coin is the long history of what can only be called charlatans who mislead and abused the funerals with there claims that they could heal or foretell what was going to happen.
Historical that is why the gifts of the spirit stopped being used.

It is still a problem today. There used to be a blind man who attended our church, he was charismatic and our church is definitely not. He attends for two reason.
1. The biblical teaching.
2. He was tired of being accused of not having faith to be healed.

Both sides of this debate/argument limit God. One acts as if he is a devine sugar daddy granting wishes and the other assumes he is impotent.

The reality is that God is soverign if it is his will to heal, grant special knowledge, to speak another language then that is his right.
We don't have the right to expect him to do so or equally not to expect him to act.

The miracles were called ' signs ' for a reason. They didn't glorify the person doing them, but pointed to God.

That was the purpose in biblical times, it is the purpose today.

Windmillcharge said:

The other side of the coin is the long history of what can only be called charlatans who mislead and abused the funerals with there claims that they could heal or foretell what was going to happen.
Historical that is why the gifts of the spirit stopped being used.

It is still a problem today. There used to be a blind man who attended our church, he was charismatic and our church is definitely not. He attends for two reason.
1. The biblical teaching.
2. He was tired of being accused of not having faith to be healed.

Both sides of this debate/argument limit God. One acts as if he is a devine sugar daddy granting wishes and the other assumes he is impotent.

The reality is that God is soverign if it is his will to heal, grant special knowledge, to speak another language then that is his right.
We don't have the right to expect him to do so or equally not to expect him to act.

The miracles were called ' signs ' for a reason. They didn't glorify the person doing them, but pointed to God.

That was the purpose in biblical times, it is the purpose today.

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There are some Charismatic Bible teachers who teach guaranteed healing, This is false teaching because God is not a vending machine that we can push a button and expect God to do what we want when we want. You are correct. God is sovereign, and He has good reasons for either healing or not healing a sick or disabled person.

Blaming a sick person for not having enough faith to be heal is cruel and unreasonable, and such a statement is not consistent with the fruit of the Spirit. People who accuse sick people in this way need to be aware of the Scripture: "He who has not the spirit of Christ is none of His." My view of the spirit of Christ is the fruit of the Spirit as listed in Galatians 5.

My standing joke toward those who accuse sick people of not having enough faith is the story of John Wesley's horse which, on John's journey from one venue to another, became lame and the uneven gait gave John a headache. At last he stopped, raised his eyes to heaven and prayed, and God not only healed him of his headache but his horse from lameness as well! Thank the Lord, that horse had faith to be healed!!!

If there is anyone to be accused of a lack of faith, it is the person praying for the sick person who does not have enough faith in the sovereignty of God to be able to leave it to the Lord to do as He wills for that sick person.

In my view, the signs and wonders were to accompany the preaching of the gospel to the unsaved, and not for the self gratification of religious people who want to show that they or their ministry is closer to the cutting edge of God than any other person or ministry.

Also, Jesus warned that in the last days false prophets will appear with such false signs and wonders that possibly even the very elect could be deceived. True signs and wonders always point the unsaved to Christ and this is clearly shown in the book of Acts.

Paul Christensen said:

In my view, the signs and wonders were to accompany the preaching of the gospel to the unsaved...

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And that was to authenticate the Gospel message while the apostles and their companions were on earth. Signs were for primarily unbelieving Jews. After the apostles passed on the signs and wonders ceased.

How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard Him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to His own will?

"According to His own will" is critical. And according to the history of the Church, God's will was to use the power of the Gospel accompanied by the power of the Holy Spirit to bring sinners to the Savior, once the apostles were gone.

"For the first three centuries Christianity was placed in the most unfavorable circumstances, that it might display its moral power, and gain its victory over the world by spiritual weapons alone. Until the reign of Constantine it had not even a legal existence in the Roman empire, but was first ignored as a Jewish sect, then slandered, proscribed, and persecuted, as a treasonable innovation, and the adoption of it made punishable with confiscation and death.

Besides, it offered not the slightest favor, as Mohammedanism afterwards did, to the corrupt inclinations of the heart, but against the current ideas of Jews and heathen it so presented its inexorable demand of repentance and conversion, renunciation of self and the world, that more, according to Tertullian, were kept out of the new sect by love of pleasure than by love of life.

The Jewish origin of Christianity also, and the poverty and obscurity of a majority of its professors particularly offended the pride of the Greeks, and Romans. Celsus, exaggerating this fact, and ignoring the many exceptions, scoffingly remarked, that "weavers, cobblers, and fullers, the most illiterate persons" preached the "irrational faith," and knew how to commend it especially "to women and children."

But in spite of these extraordinary difficulties Christianity made a progress which furnished striking evidence of its divine origin and adaptation to the deeper wants of man, and was employed as such by Irenaeus, Justin, Tertullian, and other fathers of that day. Nay, the very hindrances became, in the hands of Providence, means of promotion. Persecution led to martyrdom, and martyrdom had not terrors alone, but also attractions, and stimulated the noblest and most unselfish form of ambition.

Every genuine martyr was a living proof of the truth and holiness of the Christian religion. Tertullian could exclaim to the heathen: "All your ingenious cruelties can accomplish nothing; they are only a lure to this sect. Our number increases the more you destroy us. The blood of the Christians is their seed." The moral earnestness of the Christians contrasted powerfully with the prevailing corruption of the age, and while it repelled the frivolous and voluptuous, it could not fail to impress most strongly the deepest and noblest minds.

The predilection of the poor and oppressed for the gospel attested its comforting and redeeming power. But others also, though not many, from the higher and educated classes, were from the first attracted to the new religion; such men as Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimathaea, the apostle Paul, the proconsul Sergius Paulus, Dionysius of Athens, Erastus of Corinth, and some members of the imperial household. Among the sufferers in Domitian's persecution were his own near kinswoman Flavia Domitilla and her husband Flavius Clemens. In the oldest part of the Catacomb of Callistus, which is named after St. Lucina, members of the illustrious gens Pomponia, and perhaps also of the Flavian house, are interred.

The senatorial and equestrian orders furnished several converts open or concealed. Pliny laments, that in Asia Minor men of every rank (omnis ordinis) go over to the Christians. Tertullian asserts that the tenth part of Carthage, and among them senators and ladies of the noblest descent and the nearest relatives of the proconsul of Africa professed Christianity. The numerous church fathers from the middle of the second century, a Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Hippolytus, Clement, Origen, Tertullian, Cyprian, excelled, or at least equalled in talent and culture, their most eminent heathen contemporaries.

Nor was this progress confined to any particular localities. It extended alike over all parts of the empire. "We are a people of yesterday," says Tertullian in his Apology, "and yet we have filled every place belonging to you—cities, islands, castles, towns, assemblies, your very camp, your tribes, companies, palace, senate, forum! We leave you your temples only. We can count your armies; our numbers in a single province will be greater." All these facts expose the injustice of the odious charge of Celsus, repeated by a modern sceptic, that the new sect was almost entirely composed of the dregs of the populace—of peasants and mechanics, of boys and women, of beggars and slaves.

From History of the Christian Church by Philip Schaff.

Enoch111 said:

And that was to authenticate the Gospel message while the apostles and their companions were on earth. Signs were for primarily unbelieving Jews. After the apostles passed on the signs and wonders ceased.

How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard Him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to His own will?

"According to His own will" is critical. And according to the history of the Church, God's will was to use the power of the Gospel accompanied by the power of the Holy Spirit to bring sinners to the Savior, once the apostles were gone.

"For the first three centuries Christianity was placed in the most unfavorable circumstances, that it might display its moral power, and gain its victory over the world by spiritual weapons alone. Until the reign of Constantine it had not even a legal existence in the Roman empire, but was first ignored as a Jewish sect, then slandered, proscribed, and persecuted, as a treasonable innovation, and the adoption of it made punishable with confiscation and death.

Besides, it offered not the slightest favor, as Mohammedanism afterwards did, to the corrupt inclinations of the heart, but against the current ideas of Jews and heathen it so presented its inexorable demand of repentance and conversion, renunciation of self and the world, that more, according to Tertullian, were kept out of the new sect by love of pleasure than by love of life.

The Jewish origin of Christianity also, and the poverty and obscurity of a majority of its professors particularly offended the pride of the Greeks, and Romans. Celsus, exaggerating this fact, and ignoring the many exceptions, scoffingly remarked, that "weavers, cobblers, and fullers, the most illiterate persons" preached the "irrational faith," and knew how to commend it especially "to women and children."

But in spite of these extraordinary difficulties Christianity made a progress which furnished striking evidence of its divine origin and adaptation to the deeper wants of man, and was employed as such by Irenaeus, Justin, Tertullian, and other fathers of that day. Nay, the very hindrances became, in the hands of Providence, means of promotion. Persecution led to martyrdom, and martyrdom had not terrors alone, but also attractions, and stimulated the noblest and most unselfish form of ambition.

Every genuine martyr was a living proof of the truth and holiness of the Christian religion. Tertullian could exclaim to the heathen: "All your ingenious cruelties can accomplish nothing; they are only a lure to this sect. Our number increases the more you destroy us. The blood of the Christians is their seed." The moral earnestness of the Christians contrasted powerfully with the prevailing corruption of the age, and while it repelled the frivolous and voluptuous, it could not fail to impress most strongly the deepest and noblest minds.

The predilection of the poor and oppressed for the gospel attested its comforting and redeeming power. But others also, though not many, from the higher and educated classes, were from the first attracted to the new religion; such men as Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimathaea, the apostle Paul, the proconsul Sergius Paulus, Dionysius of Athens, Erastus of Corinth, and some members of the imperial household. Among the sufferers in Domitian's persecution were his own near kinswoman Flavia Domitilla and her husband Flavius Clemens. In the oldest part of the Catacomb of Callistus, which is named after St. Lucina, members of the illustrious gens Pomponia, and perhaps also of the Flavian house, are interred.

The senatorial and equestrian orders furnished several converts open or concealed. Pliny laments, that in Asia Minor men of every rank (omnis ordinis) go over to the Christians. Tertullian asserts that the tenth part of Carthage, and among them senators and ladies of the noblest descent and the nearest relatives of the proconsul of Africa professed Christianity. The numerous church fathers from the middle of the second century, a Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Hippolytus, Clement, Origen, Tertullian, Cyprian, excelled, or at least equalled in talent and culture, their most eminent heathen contemporaries.

Nor was this progress confined to any particular localities. It extended alike over all parts of the empire. "We are a people of yesterday," says Tertullian in his Apology, "and yet we have filled every place belonging to you—cities, islands, castles, towns, assemblies, your very camp, your tribes, companies, palace, senate, forum! We leave you your temples only. We can count your armies; our numbers in a single province will be greater." All these facts expose the injustice of the odious charge of Celsus, repeated by a modern sceptic, that the new sect was almost entirely composed of the dregs of the populace—of peasants and mechanics, of boys and women, of beggars and slaves.

From History of the Christian Church by Philip Schaff.

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There is absolutely no evidence in New Testament Scripture that signs and wonders to support the preaching of the gospel to the unsaved were to cease after the last Apostle died. None at all. So, if it ain't in the New Testament, then it ain't true.

The real reason why the signs and wonders ceased was because of the corruption of the church through decreasing standards of holiness, pagan influences, and formalism plus ceremony replacing the involvement of the Holy Spirit. The killer was when the church bishops asserted their own authority on the churches, replacing the function of the prophetic through rank and file believers, and ultimately when the Bishop of Rome took over authority over the whole church and replaced the Holy Spirit, becoming instead the representative of Christ on earth. Once the Holy Spirit saw that happening, He said, "I'm outa here!" And He was gone from the church like a robber's dog!

r1xlx said:

My knee was sore like a rusty old hinge but I had it prayed over and just tested it 3 years later and still as smooth as a new one.
Trouble is that Methodist, Anglican and Catholic ministers, preists etc don't do any healing as they are all concerned with theology but are not Christians. I don't know if any Jew rabbi does healing - do they?

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If we read through what Jesus said to the seven churches at the beginning of the book of Revelation, we get a major clue as to why the gifts of the Spirit, including tongues and prophecy, declined and disappeared from the Christian church.

Jesus said that if those churches that were allowing them to be corrupted by allowing the teaching and practice of false doctrine and prophecy in their churches, He will remove their candlestick. I think that many churches, when they become corrupted by heresy, pagan influences, decline in holiness standards, Jesus removed their candlestick - in other words, He removed the Holy Spirit from them, and they became mere religious "bless me clubs" having the form of godliness but denying the power of it. These churches would have continued as religious clubs for a while, but would have declined as congregations aged and eventually they closed their doors, receding into the oblivion of history.

What saved the overall church from the same fate was that when the Bishop of Rome combined the Christian church with the political structure, forming the new Holy Roman Empire, anyone not attending church was excommunicated, and made a social outcast to the degree that they could not buy or sell to church members. So it was attend the formalised and ceremonial church with the Bishop of Rome its head, or starve to death.

Actually, for interest sake, anyone who did not comply with the rules of the early New England Puritan community was excommunicated, and was put out of the settlement. Unless the native Indians gave them food, they starved to death or died from exposure from the elements.

So, in any religious community, when people stop conducting themselves according to the spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit stops interacting with them and so what results is a Spiritless religious "club" no different from any secular sports or social club.

You do not have any special gifts, and your presentation is defective biblically.

Anthony D'Arienzo said:

You do not have any special gifts, and your presentation is defective biblically.

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You must be referring to the OP, so I won't respond to your comment.

Paul Christensen said:

There is absolutely no evidence in New Testament Scripture that signs and wonders to support the preaching of the gospel to the unsaved were to cease after the last Apostle died. None at all. So, if it ain't in the New Testament, then it ain't true.

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The historical evidence is sufficient (but not for people like you). Read Counterfeit Miracles by B. B. Warfield. Here is what he said briefly:

The Apostolic Church was characteristically a miracle-working church.

How long did this state of things continue? It was the characterizing peculiarity of specifically the Apostolic Church, and it belonged therefore exclusively to the Apostolic age—although no doubt this designation may be taken with some latitude. These gifts were not the possession of the primitive Christian as such; nor for that matter of the Apostolic Church or the Apostolic age for themselves; they were distinctively the authentication of the Apostles. They were part of the credentials of the Apostles as the authoritative agents of God in founding the church. Their function thus confined them to distinctively the Apostolic Church, and they necessarily passed away with it.

Of this we may make sure on the ground both of principle and of fact; that is to say both under the guidance of the New Testament teaching as to their origin and nature, and on the credit of the testimony of later ages as to their cessation.

But I shall not stop at this point to adduce the proof of this. It will be sufficiently intimated in the criticism which I purpose to make of certain opposing opinions which have been current among students of the subject. My design is to state and examine the chief views which have been held favorable to the continuance of the charismata beyond the Apostolic age. In the process of this examination occasion will offer for noting whatever is needful to convince us that the possession of the charismata was confined to the Apostolic age.

The theologians of the post-Reformation era, a very clear-headed body of men, taught with great distinctness that the charismata ceased with the Apostolic age.

Not only this but Paul made it very clear that THREE specific gifts would cease -- prophesy, tongues, and supernatural knowledge.

Enoch111 said:

The historical evidence is sufficient (but not for people like you). Read Counterfeit Miracles by B. B. Warfield. Here is what he said briefly:

The Apostolic Church was characteristically a miracle-working church.

How long did this state of things continue? It was the characterizing peculiarity of specifically the Apostolic Church, and it belonged therefore exclusively to the Apostolic age—although no doubt this designation may be taken with some latitude. These gifts were not the possession of the primitive Christian as such; nor for that matter of the Apostolic Church or the Apostolic age for themselves; they were distinctively the authentication of the Apostles. They were part of the credentials of the Apostles as the authoritative agents of God in founding the church. Their function thus confined them to distinctively the Apostolic Church, and they necessarily passed away with it.

Of this we may make sure on the ground both of principle and of fact; that is to say both under the guidance of the New Testament teaching as to their origin and nature, and on the credit of the testimony of later ages as to their cessation.

But I shall not stop at this point to adduce the proof of this. It will be sufficiently intimated in the criticism which I purpose to make of certain opposing opinions which have been current among students of the subject. My design is to state and examine the chief views which have been held favorable to the continuance of the charismata beyond the Apostolic age. In the process of this examination occasion will offer for noting whatever is needful to convince us that the possession of the charismata was confined to the Apostolic age.

The theologians of the post-Reformation era, a very clear-headed body of men, taught with great distinctness that the charismata ceased with the Apostolic age.

Not only this but Paul made it very clear that THREE specific gifts would cease -- prophesy, tongues, and supernatural knowledge.

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B B Warfield was a determined Cessationist and so his teaching on the topic is prejudicial.

Everything you are saying is conjecture, because there is no Scriptural basis for it. Show me one full verse that clearly shows that Jesus and Paul said that the supernatural gifts were just for the Apostolic Age. I put it to you that there are none! So, although I respect your sincerity (and I really do!), without clear Scriptural support, all you are presenting is your own opinion based on what you have been taught by the Bible teachers you respect and adhere to.

I have no doubt that B.B. Warfield is an excellent Bible teacher on everything except Cessationist doctrine. It is interesting that both he and John MacArthur state that the Bible is the sole moderating authority for sound doctrine, and yet they support Cessationism which is mentioned nowhere in the Bible!

By the way, I have spent hours viewing John MacArthur's teaching and it has increased by faith no end. I just wanted you to know that. I even agree with most of what he said about the current Charismatic movement. Now, isn't that something coming from a committed Pentecostal???

Paul Christensen said:

B B Warfield was a determined Cessationist and so his teaching on the topic is prejudicial.

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That is just PLAIN NONSENSE. He examined the historical evidence, just like Philip Schaff, and just like any sane Christian should. And he arrived at a conclusion based on the evidence, not prejudice. There is not a single Apostolic Father who ever claimed to be an apostle or a prophet, or claimed to speak in tongues, or claimed to be a miracle worker. And that should be enough.

Enoch111 said:

The historical evidence is sufficient (but not for people like you). Read Counterfeit Miracles by B. B. Warfield. Here is what he said briefly:

The Apostolic Church was characteristically a miracle-working church.

How long did this state of things continue? It was the characterizing peculiarity of specifically the Apostolic Church, and it belonged therefore exclusively to the Apostolic age—although no doubt this designation may be taken with some latitude. These gifts were not the possession of the primitive Christian as such; nor for that matter of the Apostolic Church or the Apostolic age for themselves; they were distinctively the authentication of the Apostles. They were part of the credentials of the Apostles as the authoritative agents of God in founding the church. Their function thus confined them to distinctively the Apostolic Church, and they necessarily passed away with it.

Of this we may make sure on the ground both of principle and of fact; that is to say both under the guidance of the New Testament teaching as to their origin and nature, and on the credit of the testimony of later ages as to their cessation.

But I shall not stop at this point to adduce the proof of this. It will be sufficiently intimated in the criticism which I purpose to make of certain opposing opinions which have been current among students of the subject. My design is to state and examine the chief views which have been held favorable to the continuance of the charismata beyond the Apostolic age. In the process of this examination occasion will offer for noting whatever is needful to convince us that the possession of the charismata was confined to the Apostolic age.

The theologians of the post-Reformation era, a very clear-headed body of men, taught with great distinctness that the charismata ceased with the Apostolic age.

Not only this but Paul made it very clear that THREE specific gifts would cease -- prophesy, tongues, and supernatural knowledge.

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Perhaps The Lord has not gotten this memo. As I abide in Him, and He in me, these 3 gifts are ever present as He is ever present, just as promised.

Enoch111 said:

That is just PLAIN NONSENSE. He examined the historical evidence, just like Philip Schaff, and just like any sane Christian should. And he arrived at a conclusion based on the evidence, not prejudice. There is not a single Apostolic Father who ever claimed to be an apostle or a prophet, or claimed to speak in tongues, or claimed to be a miracle worker. And that should be enough.

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Maybe you didn't read the same Early Church fathers I did. The consensus I saw in their writing about tongues and prophecy is that they declined because of the lowering of holiness standards from one generation to another.

Also Augustine having embraced Cessationism in his early ministry, had to change because of the miracles that were occurring in his churches, and he tried to get the church authorities in Rome to change their stance, but they refused and stuck to his earlier views.

John Calvin, in his commentary on 1 Corinthians 14, says that tongues and prophecy most likely declined through misuse rather than from some decree of God.

Also, there are multitudes of testimonies of people speaking in tongues and although they had never learned the language, native speakers of the language understood what they were saying. Two of these instances happened in the very same church I attended in the 1970s. The two people in my church who heard their native languages through someone speaking in tongues were well known to me as upright, godly and honest people. They had no reason to lie. They were just ordinary people who loved the Lord who were just the rank and file in the congregation.

So it all depends on the "evidence" you choose to believe.

DoveSpirit05 said:

PEOPLE DONT LISTEN TO ME LISTEN 2 GOD, THE HOLY SPIRIT AND SCRIPTURE!! PRAY, FAST AND SEEK GOD EVERY SECOND AND HE WILL GUIDE U 2 TRUTH!! PROV 3:5-6

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The problem is how believers are getting the gifts these days by testifying to what they believe was the Holy Spirit coming over them later in life as a saved believer in getting what they believe was God's gift of tongues. And because it does not come with interpretation, thy assume it is for private use when in actuality, it is not God's gift of tongues for speaking unto the people and that was not the Holy Spirit that came over them later in life as a saved believer in bringing that tongue.

There are vast abuses of sensationalism with the "gifts" in the churches these days, including fakers that just want to fit in. If the spotlight does not shine only on Jesus in being edified in the knowledge of Him, but vain believers are sharing in that spotlight as the church promotes herself as a "full gospel" church, then they are hardly decreasing so that He may increase. Indeed, when the spotlight is on the Holy Spirit in worship or prayer, when the indwelling Holy Spirit would keep that spotlight on Jesus in worship and the Holy Spirit is not at that throne of grace to be praying to, seducing spirits also known as the spirits of the antichrist will come in and take that spotlight on the Holy Spirit to lure believers to chase after them to receive for a sign.

With such apostasy abounding, do you really think the Holy Spirit would even bother to manifest in a church that is seeking to receive spirits after signs?

Do I believe the doctrine of cessation of spiritual gifts? No. When there is no written scripture available and it is in ministry outreach, I can see how the Holy Spirit may very well manifest tongues to speak unto the people, and in an established church in that missionary field, tongues will come with interpretation, but the important thing to note about stories from afar is putting the spotlight on the gifts rather than on Jesus, as if to say the gifts are still going on, and yet they have written scripture in their churches.

That is so wrong, it is no wonder believers believe the gifts has ceased because of the vagrant misuse and spotlight on tongues, and yet Paul exhorted believers that seek spiritual gifts to seek the gift of prophesy over all those gifts in 1 Corinthians 14:1-3 & repeated that exhortation in 1 Corinthians 14:12 .

But what do we see here today? Believers separating themselves from the body of Christ by claiming tongues can be for private use. Paul never preached that one receives another drink of the One Spirit to get a spiritual gift because when he was talking about those gifts in 1 Corinthians 12:7-12 , he pointed out the one baptism we all have been baptized into that one body by which is by that one and only drink of the One Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12:13. And the worse part that claiming tongues for private use is a believer that is saying I have no need of anyone to interpret.

1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.....14 For the body is not one member, but many.... 19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

Tongues for private use is saying they have no need for interpretation nor any member of the body of Christ as they also testify to having another drink of the One Spirit to separate themselves from all believers that are supposed to be speaking the same thing and the same judgment.

I do not believe in the cessations of spiritual gifts since one of them is discerning spirits. If the whole point of the manifestations to profit the body of Christ, then tongues with interpretation is for the edification of the body of believers just as prophesying is, then the written scripture is what we go to for confirmation of any word received by such a gift; and yet why go there when He would just lead us to the written word for the final say? Can it still happen? Believers prompted to edify one another by the written word recalled to them by the Holy Spirit? Sure.

But the only reason that cessation of gifts is being taught is because of abuse, the growing apostasy in these latter days, the availability of the scripture, and this thread putting the spotlight on the gifts when the gifts are only meant to edify us in the knowledge of Him, the Lord Jesus Christ.

So arguing against having the availability of scripture for why the gifts has ceased is not a sound defense, but making a case for why it has ceased.

Somewhere.. out there in the world where the scriptures are not available, I can see the gifts in outreach ministry, but in a church with the written word? They would be obliged to test the spirit and the words they bring to make sure it does not go against scripture, and not very many people, let alone churches, are doing that. In fact, some believers revel in their praying tongues and do not care if the others are abusing that gift or not.

I believe believers are sick of believers reveling in tongues for private use that pretty much say "Hey, look at me! I have something you don't have !" and yet the gifts are to profit the body withal. And since they get their edification from scripture, cessation is their way of saying, "No, thanks."

Paul Christensen said:

You must be referring to the OP, so I won't respond to your comment.

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Hello Paul feel free to respond. Just explain how there are signs of the Apostles when the apostles were all in heaven you can go ahead and I'll respond if I can

DoveSpirit05 said:

ohh!! ok, wat have I said dat was wrong den? including also the preacher in the video?

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Well, you can challenge the doctrine, which I think is not really essential for the foundation of the gospel which is based on the belief that Jesus is the Son of God who died for our sins and rose again to give us eternal life and that we need to repent and receive Him as Saviour.

Whether a person believes in, or uses the gifts of the Spirit does not determine whether they are saved or not, but is more in the realm of personal sanctification and equipping for service.

In my opinion, most if not all Cessationists become so because they had it drummed into them as part of their discipleship, or they were spooked out by some of the wacky stuff and convinced by the misuse of the gifts that they had to have ceased and not continued.

Anthony D'Arienzo said:

Hello Paul feel free to respond. Just explain how there are signs of the Apostles when the apostles were all in heaven you can go ahead and I'll respond if I can

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Well, the signs and wonders were not owned by the Apostles themselves. The supernatural gifts are given to the body of Christ and not to individuals. The Holy Spirit distributes the gifts to be used according to His will not ours. We can't say that we own a gift, like some do. We can say that the Holy Spirit will manifest a gift through us when He wants to for a specific purpose. Because we are filled with the Spirit from conversion, we all have the potential to use any of the gifts of the Spirit as He wills.

Paul said that he was not ashamed of the gospel of Christ because it is the power of God unto salvation to all those who believe it. The disciples at the beginning of Acts asked the Lord to give them boldness to preach the gospel, and that signs and wonders be done in the Name of Jesus Christ. And it goes on to say that the Lord went with them, confirming His Word with signs and wonders. This shows that when the Lord works with any disciple who preaches or shares the gospel, the Lord can work with that person to confirm His word with signs and wonders to show that Jesus is really alive and that the gospel is really true.

The Apostles were the foundational examples of what all Christian leaders, disciples and preachers should be. Paul told Titus (or Timothy) to teach the gospel of Christ to faithful men who will pass it on to others. Therefore, signs and wonders accompanying the preaching of the gospel was not limited to the Apostles. They set the standard for all the rest of us to follow.

Now, I must point out that the signs and wonders are to support the preaching of the gospel. They are not for the self-indulgence of Christian people. There is absolutely no evidence that the signs and wonders occurred in the Christian churches where people were already believers. And the signs and wonders shown in the book of Acts were mainly remarkable healings and deliverance from pagan demons. When the pagans saw that Jesus Christ was more powerful than their own demonic gods, they turned to Christ in droves.

So all this malarkey about gold dust falling from heaven, and oil dripping from Bibles, and appearances of Jesus and Mary, and eagle shaped clouds in the sky, are not the signs and wonders depicted in the New Testament. Nor are all the shaking, jerking, falling down, goosebumps up the spine, etc.

I believe that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit ceased in the early church because of unholiness, pagan influences and misuse of the gifts. When the church went from the ministry of the Holy Spirit to man's control, the gifts ceased and the church became a man-controlled religious "club"; and many churches are still like that today.