QUOTE (Lookin'4wardtoHeaven @ Apr 16 2009, 03:13 PM)
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Are we saying that we shouldn't have Pastors? I wanted to add these scriptures, ..Acts 20:28 (King James Version) 28Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.Ephesians 4:11-12 (King James Version) 11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of ChristSo many are called but not called by God , that is why we need to study the scriptures and pray for wisdom from God.So that he may reveal the truth to us.
Eph 4 ministries are given to the church by Jesus himself for equipping the church, you will note that they are plural. NO WHERE in the NT does is validate Pastors leading churches. As you correctly state the church will only be equipped when it is exposed to the whole ministry team. When we have Pastors who do have a valid gift spending 45 + weeks of the year teaching we will have an unbalanced church. The NT teach us that the foundations of the Church are Apostles, prophets and teaches, it doesn't mention Pastors.QUOTE (tomwebster @ Apr 16 2009, 02:34 PM)
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I think I understand what you are saying but their is teaching in Scripture for "apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;" and there is the words of Christ that demonstrates that," for the labourer is worthy of his hire."Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) Eph 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors(G4166) and teachers(G1320) ; Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. Luk 10:1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come. Luk 10:2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest. Luk 10:3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves. Luk 10:4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way. Luk 10:5 And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house. Luk 10:6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again. Luk 10:7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give:
for the labourer(G2040) is worthy(G514) of his hire(G3408). Go not from house to house. G2040ἐργάτηςergatēser-gat'-aceFrom G2041; a toiler; figuratively a teacher: - labourer, worker (-men).G514ἄξιοςaxiosax'-ee-osProbably from G71; deserving, comparable or suitable (as if drawing praise): - due reward, meet, [un-] worthy.G3408μισθόςmisthosmis-thos'Apparently a primary word; pay for service (literally or figuratively), good or bad: - hire, reward, wages.andI believe part of the problem is with the people, the larger part even. They are the Church, and many of them have become lazy. They do not study the Word of God on their own but rely on the man or woman standing up front to tell them what the Word says. Unfortunately many of those teaching and/or preaching haven't read let along understood the Scriptures. We all are responsible for reading and understanding the Word of God
and the pulpit with its professional teachers is the No 1 reason WHY. Its called spoon fed christianlty. I have heard 1000s' of times "thats what we pay the Pastor for. Only a revolution will fix it.