The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

Truther said:

I there an original manuscript, or are they all copies and copies of copies?
Is there anyone on earth today that knows ancient Greek perfectly?

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Yup.

There are a LOT of people who know ancient Greek thoroughly.
Just not YOU . . .

BreadOfLife said:

Once again - not ONE of these verses details HOW these people were Baptized.

HOWEVER, Biblical scholars, as I have repeatedly proven - explain that Peter's statement in Acts 2:38 about Baptizing "in the name of" Jesus Christ simply meant to Baptize "by the AUTHORITY of" Jesus Christ. In case you missed it again - I posted it for about the FIFTH time in post #2367.

Look - I fully understand how painful and frustrating it is for you to lose a debate.
That's why I do my homework . . .

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“by the authority of” is NOT found at all in the KJV. Whereas, “in the name of” is found 64 times.

Furthermore, the word translated into English as name in Matthew 28:19 is Strong's G3686 - onoma

Strong’s Definitionsὄνομα ónoma, on'-om-ah; from a presumed derivative of the base of G1097 (compare G3685); a "name" (literally or figuratively) (authority, character):—called, (+ sur-)name(-d).KJV

Translation Count — Total: 229xThe KJV translates Strong's G3686 in the following manner: name (193x), named (28x), called (4x), surname (with G2007) (2x), named (with G2564) (1x), not translated (1x).


While “authority” is listed as one way that Stong’s # G3686 “can be used”, it is interesting to note that Strong’s # G3686 was NEVER used in the KJV as “authority”. So, no serious Bible Student should be trying to put that square peg into a round hole.


Colossians 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, .....

And, in addition to invoking the name "Jesus" when they baptized, here is where the name of Jesus was invoked in two other places ... in word AND deed ... and are VERBATIM QUOTES ...

Acts 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

Acts 16:18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.


Father is NOT a name.
Son is NOT a name. and
Holy Ghost is NOT a name.

Besides, Jesus said to baptize in the NAME (singular) of the Father, AND of the Son, AND of the Holy Ghost. He did NOT say to baptize in the "names" (plural) of the Father, AND of the Son, AND of the Holy Ghost.

A sentence diagram of Matthew 28:19 proves ONE NAME is being alluded to.


And, New Testament leaders always baptized converts in the NAME OF JESUS.

The following is where those who had it right obeyed the Great Commission of Jesus in Matthew 28:19 ...

Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the NAME of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Acts 8:16 "(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the NAME of the Lord Jesus)."

This is how it appears in the King James Version. In some of the other versions, it reads, "in the name of the Lord Jesus". Let me ask you this question. Did the formula Peter used to baptize people change somewhere between Acts 2:38 on the day of Pentecost and the 10th Chapter of the Book at Acts? I don't think so!

Acts 19:5 "When they heard this, they were baptized in the NAME of the Lord Jesus."

Colossians 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, .....


In addition to invoking the name "Jesus" when they baptized, here is where the name of Jesus was invoked in two other places ...

Acts 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

Acts 16:18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

user said:

“by the authority of” is NOT found at all in the KJV. Whereas, “in the name of” is found 64 times.

Furthermore, the word translated into English as name in Matthew 28:19 is Strong's G3686 - onoma

Strong’s Definitionsὄνομα ónoma, on'-om-ah; from a presumed derivative of the base of G1097 (compare G3685); a "name" (literally or figuratively) (authority, character):—called, (+ sur-)name(-d).KJV

Translation Count — Total: 229xThe KJV translates Strong's G3686 in the following manner: name (193x), named (28x), called (4x), surname (with G2007) (2x), named (with G2564) (1x), not translated (1x).


While “authority” is listed as one way that Stong’s # G3686 “can be used”, it is interesting to note that Strong’s # G3686 was NEVER used in the KJV as “authority”. So, no serious Bible Student should be trying to put that square peg into a round hole.


Colossians 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, .....

And, in addition to invoking the name "Jesus" when they baptized, here is where the name of Jesus was invoked in two other places ... in word AND deed ... and are VERBATIM QUOTES ...

Acts 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

Acts 16:18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.


Father is NOT a name.
Son is NOT a name. and
Holy Ghost is NOT a name.

Besides, Jesus said to baptize in the NAME (singular) of the Father, AND of the Son, AND of the Holy Ghost. He did NOT say to baptize in the "names" (plural) of the Father, AND of the Son, AND of the Holy Ghost.

A sentence diagram of Matthew 28:19 proves ONE NAME is being alluded to.

And, New Testament leaders always baptized converts in the NAME OF JESUS.

The following is where those who had it right obeyed the Great Commission of Jesus in Matthew 28:19 ...

Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the NAME of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Acts 8:16 "(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the NAME of the Lord Jesus)."

This is how it appears in the King James Version. In some of the other versions, it reads, "in the name of the Lord Jesus". Let me ask you this question. Did the formula Peter used to baptize people change somewhere between Acts 2:38 on the day of Pentecost and the 10th Chapter of the Book at Acts? I don't think so!

Acts 19:5 "When they heard this, they were baptized in the NAME of the Lord Jesus."

Colossians 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, .....


In addition to invoking the name "Jesus" when they baptized, here is where the name of Jesus was invoked in two other places ...

Acts 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

Acts 16:18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

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And once again, you are moving the goalposts in a desperate attempt to prove the linguistic scholars wrong.
You are dissecting the phrase "in the name of", word by word.

NOBODY is debating the use of the word "name". IT is the phrase that is being discussed - and the consensus of linguistic scholarship states that in ALL cultures, this means "by the AUTHORITY of". Read the evidence I have presented some FIVE times now.

You have LOST this argument - so deal with it . . .

Enoch111 said:

Why don't you go and study what is actually in the Bible? Not what the RCC teaches. Was Zacchaeus *hopefully* saved, or most certainly saved?

And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. (Luke 19:9)

Now kindly go and study Romans 10, then the entire epistle to the Romans (which does not even mention Peter as the first pope). And do what it says.

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There are at two ways o

Truther said:

No, the foundation is the sure bet.

You are betting on the "add on's".

All religions are add on's, but the church of Acts is the foundation.

To be saved and remain saved, one must only adhere to the foundational teachings, not the add on's.

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Add on's are permitted if they don't contradict the foundational teachings.

You don't know what the original foundational teachings were, because all you have to go on is the Scriptures ... and even then, it's only your fallible interpretation of the Scriptures.

Enoch111 said:

Why don't you go and study what is actually in the Bible? Not what the RCC teaches. Was Zacchaeus *hopefully* saved, or most certainly saved?

And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. (Luke 19:9)

Now kindly go and study Romans 10, then the entire epistle to the Romans (which does not even mention Peter as the first pope). And do what it says.

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Has Jesus told you personally that you will be saved? Probably not - in which case, you have no way of knowing with certainty that you will be saved ... which is why salvation is described as a "hope" (ie, not a certainty) in at least fifteen places in the NT.

Enow said:

Scripture reproves the doctrine of the infallible Pope as contrived by men to excuse themselves for living in sin and walking in darkness so that the undiscerning masses will not question any teaching not supported by scripture. May the Lord Jesus Christ wakes you up.

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You're a slow learner - you still don't understand the Catholic doctrine of papal infallibility. You seem determined to remain an ignorant dunce.

RogerDC said:

There are at two ways o

Add on's are permitted if they don't contradict the foundational teachings.

You don't know what the original foundational teachings were, because all you have to go on is the Scriptures ... and even then, it's only your fallible interpretation of the Scriptures.

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yes just like your religion,still standing against God, she will fall, it has being written

BreadOfLife said:

Let's start with your first blunder in RED - then we'll go down the list . . .

The Catholic Church does not teach that we "earn" our way into Heaven by our wroks.
The Church teaches - as the BIBLE does - that works are an essential element of faith (James 2:14-26) - and NOT simply an "after-effect" of coming to belief in Christ. TRUE Faith = Belief + works (obedience).

1 Cor. 13:1-3 says that you can’t even have true faith without love – that faith is worthless without love (agape). Agape is what makes us want to serve and God and each other. Galatians 5:6 reminds us that works don’t mean a thing without love. ALL that matters is faith – “working through love.”
Remember that 1 Cor. 13:13 tells us that faith is NOT the greatest virtue – but LOVE is.
Any attempt to separate love and faith is a perversion of the Gospel.

As for the ability to LOSE Salvation - again, the church teaches this because the BIBLE teaches it so plainly. There are MANY warnings in Scripture for born again believers NOT to fall back into a life of willful sin or they will LOSE their security (Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Tim. 4:1, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).

As for Grace through faith - I couldn't agree with you more - as long as you understand what the BIBLE says that TRUE faith is not simply "believing" as most Protestants think. the BIBLE says that TRUE faith involves:
- Being Baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Rom. 6:1-11, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)
- Picking up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)
- Works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)
- Obeying his commandments (John 14:15, 15:10)
- Doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21, James 1:22)
- Suffering with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2).

Finally - as to Purgatory - this is a subject that has had many threads on its own and is a very large subject.
Suffice it to say - it IS a BIBLICAL principle.
According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, it’s a “final purification of the elect” (1030-1032).

We see in Malalchi 3:3, Jeremiah 6:27-30, Ezekiel 22:18, Psalm 119:119, Psalm 37:20, Zech. 13:9, Isa 48:10, where God is the Refiner who burns away the impurities to get to the precious metal – the gold and silver.

1 Cor. 3:10-15 uses the SAME imagery when talking about Judgement - and how some with "suffer loss" but will eventually be "saved".
- This CAN'T be Heaven because there is "suffering".
- This CAN'T be Hell because the person is eventually "saved".
- This is talking about a THIRD state - the state of final purification.

Since Revelation 21:27 tells us that nothing unclean can enter heaven, a final purification or "purgation" is necessary for some before entering Heaven.

2 Macc. 12:42-46 describes prayers for the dead and how this is a "noble" thing to do.

We see in Malalchi 3:3, Jeremiah 6:27-30, Ezekiel 22:18, Psalm 119:119, Psalm 37:20, Zech. 13:9, Isa 48:10, where God is the Refiner who burns away the impurities to get to the precious metal – the gold and silver.
Matt. 18:32-35 and Luke 12:58-59 are additional verses that support this doctrine.

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Thank you

you just proved the Roman church teaches works (see red)

there is nothing really more to add,

your church teaches that faith in God is just the beginning, what Paul calls “beginning in the spirit”. After this you are required to continually work to earn or maintain this thing God calls a gift, this is what paul calls being “perfected in the flesh”. And if you look, Paul calls this idea “foolish”. He goes on to call them who have this gospel and have faith in it fools.

look at it this way

your father gives you a gift, and says it is yours, out of gratitude you love your father more, and the things you do show that love

in your case, the father gives you a gift, then tells you you must do all these things, otherwise he will remove the gift from you, (this is called a down payment for work he expects you to complete) and is called in human terms earning a wage, but being paid before hand

as paul said,if abraham was found by works, he earned a wage, and can boast

you want to boast of your works in your church, boast, but you will not boast in front of God,Because he will reject your works, because you rejected his son work, the only work which can save you

like I said, if you think these are not maintaining works, ie in essence earning your salvation by works, You have been deceived by your church period

Eternally Grateful said:

Thank you

you just proved the Roman church teaches works (see red)

there is nothing really more to add,

your church teaches that faith in God is just the beginning, what Paul calls “beginning in the spirit”. After this you are required to continually work to earn or maintain this thing God calls a gift, this is what paul calls being “perfected in the flesh”. And if you look, Paul calls this idea “foolish”. He goes on to call them who have this gospel and have faith in it fools.

look at it this way

your father gives you a gift, and says it is yours, out of gratitude you love your father more, and the things you do show that love

in your case, the father gives you a gift, then tells you you must do all these things, otherwise he will remove the gift from you, (this is called a down payment for work he expects you to complete) and is called in human terms earning a wage, but being paid before hand

as paul said,if abraham was found by works, he earned a wage, and can boast

you want to boast of your works in your church, boast, but you will not boast in front of God,Because he will reject your works, because you rejected his son work, the only work which can save you

like I said, if you think these are not maintaining works, ie in essence earning your salvation by works, You have been deceived by your church period

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Amen! - The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works

RogerDC said:

There are at two ways o

Add on's are permitted if they don't contradict the foundational teachings.

You don't know what the original foundational teachings were, because all you have to go on is the Scriptures ... and even then, it's only your fallible interpretation of the Scriptures.

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No, add on's are not permitted at all.

We are to duplicate the 1st century church of Acts, not add to it.

BreadOfLife said:

Yup.

There are a LOT of people who know ancient Greek thoroughly.
Just not YOU . . .

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Wrong.

There are endless redefinitions to ancient Greek.

This means that these fellers are all of a different opinion.

This means they are wrong.

They are as wrong with their ancient Greek redefinitions as the RCC is per scripture....they all guess and make things up as they go along.

BreadOfLife said:

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

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This is misapplication of the passage, which is understandable.
The verse is speaking of Gentiles who are part of the remnant of Israel before this dispensation. They would be cut off from entering the kingdom on earth.

BreadOfLife said:

NOWHERE does Scripture state that a born again believer's FUTURE sins are forgiven without having repented of them.

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Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

We have forgiveness now

BreadOfLife said:

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

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Paul was saying he was careful not to be unfit.
Yes we should repent of sin and refrain from sin for our sanctification, not justification unto eternal life.

All the other verses are for Israel not the church today. They could lose their salvation to be physically delivered to enter the coming kingdom on earth.

Eternally Grateful said:

Thank you
you just proved the Roman church teaches works (see red)

there is nothing really more to add,

your church teaches that faith in God is just the beginning, what Paul calls “beginning in the spirit”. After this you are required to continually work to earn or maintain this thing God calls a gift, this is what paul calls being “perfected in the flesh”. And if you look, Paul calls this idea “foolish”. He goes on to call them who have this gospel and have faith in it fools.

look at it this way

your father gives you a gift, and says it is yours, out of gratitude you love your father more, and the things you do show that love

in your case, the father gives you a gift, then tells you you must do all these things, otherwise he will remove the gift from you, (this is called a down payment for work he expects you to complete) and is called in human terms earning a wage, but being paid before hand

as paul said,if abraham was found by works, he earned a wage, and can boast

you want to boast of your works in your church, boast, but you will not boast in front of God,Because he will reject your works, because you rejected his son work, the only work which can save you

like I said, if you think these are not maintaining works, ie in essence earning your salvation by works, You have been deceived by your church period

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This is complete nonsense.
It's not ME or the Catholic Church who is teaching this. What I posted is DIRECTLY from Christ Himself.
If you reject these teachings - you are rejecting CHRIST - not me.

Doug said:

This is misapplication of the passage, which is understandable.
The verse is speaking of Gentiles who are part of the remnant of Israel before this dispensation. They would be cut off from entering the kingdom on earth.

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This is speaking to BELIEVERS - not unbelievers.
THAT'S the whole point . . .

Doug said:

Paul was saying he was careful not to be unfit.
Yes we should repent of sin and refrain from sin for our sanctification, not justification unto eternal life.

All the other verses are for Israel not the church today. They could lose their salvation to be physically delivered to enter the coming kingdom on earth.

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WRONG.

"Disqualified" says it ALL here.
Paul was stating that he must endure in faithfulness or LOSE his secure position.

Doug said:

Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

We have forgiveness now

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NOT unless you repent.

Your PAST sins are forgiven when you come to Christ - but any FUTURE sin must be repented of in order that you be forgiven.
There is not ONE SINGLE verse of Scripture to support your false belief that all of our future sins are "automatically" forgiven . . .

Truther said:

Wrong.
There are endless redefinitions to ancient Greek.
This means that these fellers are all of a different opinion.
This means they are wrong.
They are as wrong with their ancient Greek redefinitions as the RCC is per scripture....they all guess and make things up as they go along.

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And YOU have your head in the sand.

There are MANY scholars who are well-versed in ancient Greek.
Just because YOU are ignorant - doesn't mean that everybody else is . . .

BreadOfLife said:

And once again, you are moving the goalposts in a desperate attempt to prove the linguistic scholars wrong.
You are dissecting the phrase "in the name of", word by word.

NOBODY is debating the use of the word "name". IT is the phrase that is being discussed - and the consensus of linguistic scholarship states that in ALL cultures, this means "by the AUTHORITY of". Read the evidence I have presented some FIVE times now.

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Matthew 28:19 says “in the name of” ... it does NOT say “by the authority of”

Colossians 3:17 “And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus...”

The Bible clearly tells us to do ALL in the name of the Jesus, “by the authority of” is NOT found at all in the KJV. Whereas, “in the name of” is found 64 times. Now, if you can provide one place where anyone said, “by the authority of” OR “in the authority of” then provide it now!

BreadOfLife said:

You have LOST this argument - so deal with it . . .

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I'm not "arguing" anything. Sorry to hear that you are in a state of emotional disarray. Would you like me to pray for you?