Rapture Ready For Partial Rapture?

Enow · Mar 7, 2020

For those members that wanted to join Rapture Ready forums but were not allowed to talk about the various issues of the rapture per the rules of the forum, because they believe every believer will be rapture, you can join this forum to freely discuss them, as this thread is about the question of being rapture ready for the partial rapture of the church through the scriptures.

Now we all understand that each believer is at a various growth state in our walk with Him, meaning some are not as mature as others while some are even still babes in Christ, not rooted in the milk of His words. Some have put their reconciled relationship with God on a shelf and want to live life to the fullest while others are led astray by false teachings hence a work of iniquity that deny Him in some form or fashion, by word or by deeds. So not every saved believer will be rapture ready when the Bridegroom comes for why God will judge His House first.

As God commanded the church to do in excommunicating an unrepentant brother, so will God do when He comes as the Bridegroom to bring the abiding bride to the Marriage Supper to eat.

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Here is God threatening a church to excommunicate unrepentant saints into the bed of the coming great tribulation where Satan will wage a war against the remaining saints to kill them.

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

These are the plainness of scripture warning believers to be rapture ready or else.

We can trust the Lord Jesus Christ to the keeping of the souls of those unrepentant saints left behind to suffer the calamity of fire that will come immediately on the earth after the rapture as it will set the stage for the coming great tribulation with the mark of the beast system.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Salvation is not lost, but missing out on being a part of the firstfruits of the resurrection is in being received by the Bridegroom as a vessel unto honor in His House. Those saints left behind will be resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House but when they die, though, their spirits will be with the Lord, while awaiting their resurrection.

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Proof of the souls of the saints killed during the great tribulation will be with the Lord is here as they will worship the Lord with the angels in Heaven while awaiting the soon to be resurrected state to serve the King of kings on earth during the millennium reign of Christ.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

As there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth over the loss of their first inheritance lie Esau, God will perform a miracle to help them get past that loss and rejoice in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Why are there vessels unto dishonor in His House as the least in the Kingdom of God? To testify to the power of God in salvation for all those that believe in Him, even in His name.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

That is why even former believer that were led astray are still called to go before that throne of grace for help to discern the truth from the lies to depart from iniquity.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

So go before that throne of grace today and ask Jesus for help to be rapture ready.

Keraz · Mar 7, 2020

Why DO people believe in a rapture to heaven?

It’s a great idea! Get away from this troubled world.

It is the only end times doctrine that many have ever been taught.

But the fact there is no actual supporting scripture for this idea, is no deterrent because some scriptures can be made to infer the idea of a rapture. There are prophesies telling about spiritual happenings, but none of them actually say that any living people will be taken to heaven.

As there are many prophesies telling about the future of Israel, some people make the error of thinking the Israel of God is the Jewish State of Israel and the Christian Church is therefore, separate from the Israel of prophecy. This is incorrect, many passages in the New Testament confirm that there is only one people of God, call them the Ekkelasia, spiritual Israel or simply God’s righteous Christian people and the rest of the world are the ungodly peoples, doomed for destruction.

But the false idea of Two People Two Promises has to be an immutable tenet of the rapture theory for them to go to heaven, while ethnic Israel faces tribulation, etc. That this idea is un-Christian: ‘let them burn, we will be safe’, as well as the shockingly bad notion of ‘escape from responsibilities’, seems to not be a concern for them.

With the belief of a rapture removal to heaven firmly fixed in their minds, people then fail to see the truth of what God has planned for the future. There will be testing times, to come upon everyone as Luke 21:35 makes crystal clear. What we must pray for is not escape by removal, but for the Lord’s protection, promised to His people during all that is coming and for all the faithful Christians to stand, dressed in white linen, before Jesus when He Returns. Revelation 19:9-11

marks · Mar 7, 2020

Enow said:
For those members that wanted to join Rapture Ready forums but were not allowed to talk about the various issues of the rapture per the rules of the forum, because they believe every believer will be rapture, you can join this forum to freely discuss them, as this thread is about the question of being rapture ready for the partial rapture of the church through the scriptures.

Now we all understand that each believer is at a various growth state in our walk with Him, meaning some are not as mature as others while some are even still babes in Christ, not rooted in the milk of His words. Some have put their reconciled relationship with God on a shelf and want to live life to the fullest while others are led astray by false teachings hence a work of iniquity that deny Him in some form or fashion, by word or by deeds. So not every saved believer will be rapture ready when the Bridegroom comes for why God will judge His House first.

As God commanded the church to do in excommunicating an unrepentant brother, so will God do when He comes as the Bridegroom to bring the abiding bride to the Marriage Supper to eat.

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Here is God threatening a church to excommunicate unrepentant saints into the bed of the coming great tribulation where Satan will wage a war against the remaining saints to kill them.

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

These are the plainness of scripture warning believers to be rapture ready or else.

We can trust the Lord Jesus Christ to the keeping of the souls of those unrepentant saints left behind to suffer the calamity of fire that will come immediately on the earth after the rapture as it will set the stage for the coming great tribulation with the mark of the beast system.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Salvation is not lost, but missing out on being a part of the firstfruits of the resurrection is in being received by the Bridegroom as a vessel unto honor in His House. Those saints left behind will be resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House but when they die, though, their spirits will be with the Lord, while awaiting their resurrection.

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Proof of the souls of the saints killed during the great tribulation will be with the Lord is here as they will worship the Lord with the angels in Heaven while awaiting the soon to be resurrected state to serve the King of kings on earth during the millennium reign of Christ.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

As there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth over the loss of their first inheritance lie Esau, God will perform a miracle to help them get past that loss and rejoice in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Why are there vessels unto dishonor in His House as the least in the Kingdom of God? To testify to the power of God in salvation for all those that believe in Him, even in His name.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

That is why even former believer that were led astray are still called to go before that throne of grace for help to discern the truth from the lies to depart from iniquity.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

So go before that throne of grace today and ask Jesus for help to be rapture ready.

Hi Enow,

I'm glad you brought this up. I've notice you've had this view, but didn't want to derail the threads.

I don't understand how God would rapture some of the church but not all if we are justified by God because of our faith in Christ, and have been reborn as His children. I just don't see how our works of the flesh, that is, anything that does not originate in the Spirit if Christ inside us, changes are standing before God, in that He would take this one and leave that one.

In the passage about the rapture, Paul states that "then we who are alive and remain will be caught up", wouldn't this have to read differently? Something like, then we who remain alive and abiding in Christ will be caught up? I see the wording here inclusive, "we who are alive and remain". That would be all of us.

On the vessels of honor and dishonor, I understand that to be speaking of our work here building His temple. The nice shiny stuff, tableware, and the crude stuff, mop buckets, whatever. Purge yourself from the wrong stuff, and you can be put to more honorable use. Otherwise God wills still use you, but I think the passage speaks for itself.

Regarding the innumerable multitude before the throne, I actually see these as the raptured church at the beginning of the 70th week. John's use of 'apo' and 'ek' leaves this open to interpretation, I think that fits best.

Let me ask you a question. What exactly distinguishes between the beloved child of God who will be taken away into heaven, and the beloved child of God who will be left behind to endure the 5-month sting of the locust things?

Much love!

Enow · Mar 7, 2020

Keraz said:
Why DO people believe in a rapture to heaven?

It’s a great idea! Get away from this troubled world.

It is the only end times doctrine that many have ever been taught.

But the fact there is no actual supporting scripture for this idea, is no deterrent because some scriptures can be made to infer the idea of a rapture. There are prophesies telling about spiritual happenings, but none of them actually say that any living people will be taken to heaven.

Thank you for sharing, but I do have some questions for you that you may find cause to reconsider in light of His words.

Care to explain these two references?

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

As there are many prophesies telling about the future of Israel, some people make the error of thinking the Israel of God is the Jewish State of Israel and the Christian Church is therefore, separate from the Israel of prophecy. This is incorrect, many passages in the New Testament confirm that there is only one people of God, call them the Ekkelasia, spiritual Israel or simply God’s righteous Christian people and the rest of the world are the ungodly peoples, doomed for destruction.

God will judge His House first and that is referring to those with His seal of adoption by faith in Jesus Christ for what they had built on that foundation.

But the false idea of Two People Two Promises has to be an immutable tenet of the rapture theory for them to go to heaven, while ethnic Israel faces tribulation, etc. That this idea is un-Christian: ‘let them burn, we will be safe’, as well as the shockingly bad notion of ‘escape from responsibilities’, seems to not be a concern for them.

Scripture has Jesus warning His disciples to be ready or else; this has nothing to do with unbelievers, Israel or otherwise.

With the belief of a rapture removal to heaven firmly fixed in their minds, people then fail to see the truth of what God has planned for the future. There will be testing times, to come upon everyone as Luke 21:35 makes crystal clear. What we must pray for is not escape by removal, but for the Lord’s protection, promised to His people during all that is coming and for all the faithful Christians to stand, dressed in white linen, before Jesus when He Returns. Revelation 19:9-11

We are to seek the Lord's help now to discern good & evil by His words as kept in the KJV to depart from iniquity to be not only ready to go, but willing too.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The escape is not to love this life that you would be like Lot's wife that you would not want to leave it.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

32 Remember Lot's wife.

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

If you go to this link HTML Bible Index - King James Version - Strongs Concordance - Frames Version

Click on the third Greek word in blue from the end of that line mirroring the last verse and you will find this definition by Strong's Concordance

"from sun - sun 4862 and agw - ago 71; to lead together, i.e. collect or convene; specially, to entertain (hospitably):--+ accompany, assemble (selves, together), bestow, come together, gather (selves together, up, together), lead into, resort, take in."

So eagle is the right translation regarding wind like flight which is the definition when you click on that last Greek word in blue in that last verse.

"from the same as ahr - aer 109; an eagle (from its wind-like flight):--eagle."

Something to ask the Lord Jesus Christ about, brother.

Enow · Mar 7, 2020

marks said:
Hi Enow,

Thank you for replying, brother marks.

I'm glad you brought this up. I've notice you've had this view, but didn't want to derail the threads.

In some threads where they are talking about verses where they assume that believers can lose their salvation or that they are not saved yet but in the process of being saved, this is how I apply those verses to mean; salvation is not lost, but being a part of the firstfruits of the resurrection is lost if they do not look to Him for help to discern and to depart from iniquity before the Bridegroom comes.

I don't understand how God would rapture some of the church but not all if we are justified by God because of our faith in Christ, and have been reborn as His children. I just don't see how our works of the flesh, that is, anything that does not originate in the Spirit if Christ inside us, changes are standing before God, in that He would take this one and leave that one.

Explain how you apply this reference to happen and on what day?

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

The physical body is being destroyed for defiling the temple of God and yet the spirit is still saved in that day of judgment? So not every one will be ready to meet the Bridegroom due to unrepentant iniquity still on that foundation to be judged with physical death.

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

In the passage about the rapture, Paul states that "then we who are alive and remain will be caught up", wouldn't this have to read differently? Something like, then we who remain alive and abiding in Christ will be caught up? I see the wording here inclusive, "we who are alive and remain". That would be all of us.

But if you read from the beginning of that chapter, he did talk about how we are to walk to please God by abstaining from fornication and other sins too, like not defrauding your brother, love one another, walk honestly to those that are without ( unbelievers ). So when Paul said that about we who are alive and remain, will be caught up, that was contingent to walking as we ought to in fellowship with the Father & the Son & not in darkness.

On the vessels of honor and dishonor, I understand that to be speaking of our work here building His temple. The nice shiny stuff, tableware, and the crude stuff, mop buckets, whatever. Purge yourself from the wrong stuff, and you can be put to more honorable use. Otherwise God wills still use you, but I think the passage speaks for itself.

Yet in His House, there are vessels of earth and wood, hence vessels unto dishonor, as they will come from those unrepentant saints left behind as they will testify to the power of God in salvation that will be resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor but still in His House.

Regarding the innumerable multitude before the throne, I actually see these as the raptured church at the beginning of the 70th week. John's use of 'apo' and 'ek' leaves this open to interpretation, I think that fits best.

No. They were regarded as those coming out of the great tribulation in Revelation 7 th chapter..

Let me ask you a question. What exactly distinguishes between the beloved child of God who will be taken away into heaven, and the beloved child of God who will be left behind to endure the 5-month sting of the locust things?

If I recall correctly, only those with the mark of the beast to buy & sell in the coming new world order are targeted for that, but Satan will wage war on the saints as they will be killed by the sword and not just by starvation and the elements because the saints can't buy nor sell anything to survive in the NWO.

Much love!

May God bless you and keep you. May He shine His face upon you and give you His peace.

Keraz · Mar 7, 2020

Enow said:
Thank you for sharing, but I do have some questions for you that you may find cause to reconsider in light of His words.

Care to explain these two references?

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is a prophecy about the Great White Throne Judgment; AFTER the Millennium. Proved by how it is only then that Death is no more. Revelation 21:4 Only then will anyone receive immortality; when the Book of Life is opened.

! Thess 2:16-17 Jesus descends from heaven. Those who remain alive; after the Great Trib, will meet the Lord and then be with Him in Jerusalem. Revelation 5:9-10
This is a horizontal transportation of His faithful people, just like what happened to Philip. Acts 8:39

Enow said:
Something to ask the Lord Jesus Christ about, brother.

Brother; I have.
And I have intensively studied God's Word. I simply do not see a 'rapture to heaven' anywhere there.
What I do see, is how we must stand firm in our faith and endure until the end. That is my aim and fervent desire.

Enow · Mar 7, 2020

Keraz said:
1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is a prophecy about the Great White Throne Judgment; AFTER the Millennium. Proved by how it is only then that Death is no more. Revelation 21:4 Only then will anyone receive immortality; when the Book of Life is opened.

There are 2 inheritances in the Kingdom of God. They are either the greatest in the kingdom of Heaven or the least in the kingdom of Heaven as described by Jesus in Matthew 5:19

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Paul describes them as vessels unto honor, of gold and silver OR the vessels unto dishonor, of earth and wood which is why the call to depart from iniquity is given even to former believers so they can be received by the Bridegroom as vessels unto honor in His House at the first fruits of the resurrection.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

! Thess 2:16-17 Jesus descends from heaven. Those who remain alive; after the Great Trib, will meet the Lord and then be with Him in Jerusalem. Revelation 5:9-10
This is a horizontal transportation of His faithful people, just like what happened to Philip. Acts 8:39

The problem here is that Revelation 20 has Satan already defeated and in the pit for a thousand years BEFORE the so called "first resurrection".. Zechariah 14:1-5 has Jesus returning with the saints to do battle against the world's armies marching unto Jerusalem, touching His feet down on the Mount of Olives on earth. So that means "first resurrection" is applied wrong in Revelations 20:1-6 because those that partake of that resurrection "first" were those saints as described as only coming out of the great tribulation. So the term "first" as used in context was to differentiate from the rest of the dead that will be resurrected later on. It was not to mean it was the actual first resurrection, because the pre great tribulation raptured saints were coming back with the Lord when the Lord does battle against the world's armies in Jerusalem, and yet those resurrected as coming out of the great tribulation were resurrected after Satan is in the pit for a thousand years; thus the world's armies has been defeated.

Brother; I have.
And I have intensively studied God's Word. I simply do not see a 'rapture to heaven' anywhere there.
What I do see, is how we must stand firm in our faith and endure until the end. That is my aim and fervent desire.

I have no doubt that the opposing sides has done a lot of research and study in applying scripture to that one notion, but there are scripture reproving that notion for why believers should reconsider that it may not have been rightly divided to that end.

Thank you for sharing, brother.

Paul Christensen · Mar 8, 2020

Keraz said:
1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is a prophecy about the Great White Throne Judgment; AFTER the Millennium. Proved by how it is only then that Death is no more. Revelation 21:4 Only then will anyone receive immortality; when the Book of Life is opened.

! Thess 2:16-17 Jesus descends from heaven. Those who remain alive; after the Great Trib, will meet the Lord and then be with Him in Jerusalem. Revelation 5:9-10
This is a horizontal transportation of His faithful people, just like what happened to Philip. Acts 8:39

Brother; I have.
And I have intensively studied God's Word. I simply do not see a 'rapture to heaven' anywhere there.
What I do see, is how we must stand firm in our faith and endure until the end. That is my aim and fervent desire.

So you are redacting the text of 1 Thessalonians to read that the dead in Christ shall rise and be transported to Jerusalem along with those who are still alive, and erasing the references to meeting the Lord in the clouds and the air. So, this is how the reference reads with your redaction:

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them and be transported to Jerusalem and so shall we ever be with the Lord.18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Keraz · Mar 8, 2020

Enow said:
Paul describes them as vessels unto honor, of gold and silver OR the vessels unto dishonor, of earth and wood which is why the call to depart from iniquity is given even to former believers so they can be received by the Bridegroom as vessels unto honor in His House at the first fruits of the resurrection.

So, because I contradict your beliefs, you consign me to a lesser place in the Kingdom?
I suggest you read James 5:11-12

Paul Christensen said:
So you are redacting the text of 1 Thessalonians to read that the dead in Christ shall rise and be transported to Jerusalem along with those who are still alive, and erasing the references to meeting the Lord in the clouds and the air. So, this is how the reference reads with your redaction:

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them and be transported to Jerusalem and so shall we ever be with the Lord.18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

My bad, I try to simplify my posts.
Those who remain alive will first meet the Lord in the clouds...… They are the clouds in our atmosphere. Jesus has left heaven and is coming to the earth for His millennium reign. Heaven is not the destination, as Revelation 5:9-10 clearly states; we will reign with Him on earth.

Enow said:
. Zechariah 14:1-5 has Jesus returning with the saints to do battle against the world's armies marching unto Jerusalem,

But Matthew 16:27 and Revelation 19:14 are quite clear; He Returns accompanied by the angel army.
The Greek word 'hagios' can be translated as either 'saints or angels'. Unless proof is found that humans go to heaven, then the truth must be as stated in Matthew and Revelation, as written.

Paul Christensen · Mar 8, 2020

Keraz said:
So, because I contradict your beliefs, you consign me to a lesser place in the Kingdom?
I suggest you read James 5:11-12

Did I say that? No. I am referring to all of us in general as we are in the flesh. There are no ranks or places in the Kingdom of God. We are all of equal rank - vile sinners previously deserving of hell, saved by the grace of God.

My bad, I try to simplify my posts.
Those who remain alive will first meet the Lord in the clouds...… They are the clouds in our atmosphere. Jesus has left heaven and is coming to the earth for His millennium reign. Heaven is not the destination, as Revelation 5:9-10 clearly states; we will reign with Him on earth.

How can they meet the Lord in the clouds, when they are transported to Jerusalem to be there to meet the Lord when He arrives there. Doesn't make sense to me.

But Matthew 16:27 and Revelation 19:14 are quite clear; He Returns accompanied by the angel army.
The Greek word 'hagios' can be translated as either 'saints or angels'. Unless proof is found that humans go to heaven, then the truth must be as stated in Matthew and Revelation, as written.

That is a convenient double meaning which actually supports both your views and mine, so there is still an impasse here.

Enow · Mar 8, 2020

Keraz said:
So, because I contradict your beliefs, you consign me to a lesser place in the Kingdom?
I suggest you read James 5:11-12

If you are abiding in Him and His words, you are ready for the Bridegroom whether you did not know about the pre great tribulation rapture or not. You teach for believers to be prepared and ready for persecution but I am saying the other part of being ready is being willing to go and that means leaving your life, your loved ones behind. That is the point of Luke 14:15-24 in why and how people were making excuses not to come to the King's supper for the everyday cares of life. Jesus expounded on that parable to the multitude in Luke 14:25-33 in citing the cost of discipleship in following Jesus means they have to give up everything and their lives down here when the Bridegroom comes. The whole point in not being like Lot's wife in Luke 17:26-37 and why we should pray to escape because the cares of this life can be a snare to believers that they may not be willing to go in Luke 21:33-36

My bad, I try to simplify my posts.
Those who remain alive will first meet the Lord in the clouds...… They are the clouds in our atmosphere. Jesus has left heaven and is coming to the earth for His millennium reign. Heaven is not the destination, as Revelation 5:9-10 clearly states; we will reign with Him on earth.

But Matthew 16:27 and Revelation 19:14 are quite clear; He Returns accompanied by the angel army.
The Greek word 'hagios' can be translated as either 'saints or angels'. Unless proof is found that humans go to heaven, then the truth must be as stated in Matthew and Revelation, as written.

God will excommunicate those not ready for the Bridegroom; that is the whole point of warning them to be ready is to be found abiding in Him & His words as well as being willing to go when the Bridegroom comes. Luke 12:40-49 has Him cutting off those not ready to have their portions with unbelievers and yet they are still His as His servants get the stripes per the knowledge for not being ready. This is where the vessels unto dishonor comes from that are still in His House as the least in the Kingdom of God as they will testify to the power of God in salvation for believing in Him.

Keraz · Mar 8, 2020

Paul Christensen said:
That is a convenient double meaning which actually supports both your views and mine, so there is still an impasse here.

I said that it is necessary for those who believe in people going to heaven, to provide the scripture that says that.

The fanciful idea of people accompanying Jesus at His Return; dressed in white robes and riding on white horses, is beyond any Hollywood or comic book fiction! Such an incredible belief is just in the realms of fantasy.
We do have a destiny; it is here on earth, to be His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations; Isaiah 49:3-8, Matthew 5:14-16

Enow · Mar 8, 2020

Keraz said:
I said that it is necessary for those who believe in people going to heaven, to provide the scripture that says that.

The fanciful idea of people accompanying Jesus at His Return; dressed in white robes and riding on white horses, is beyond any Hollywood or comic book fiction! Such an incredible belief is just in the realms of fantasy.
We do have a destiny; it is here on earth, to be His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations; Isaiah 49:3-8, Matthew 5:14-16

Zechariah 14:1Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

The Lord is coming back with the saints, with his feet standing upon the mount of Olives to do battle with the world's armies marching unto Jerusalem.

Revelation 20:1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

So the world's armies are defeated and Satan is in the pit for a thousand years and so that means He is on earth with those pre great tribulation raptured saints to resurrect those saints as described as coming out of the great tribulation.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Believers are ignoring verse 5 for what "first resurrection" is to be applied as; meaning the resurrection of those saints coming out of the great tribulation was to happen "first" before the rest of the dead happen later on; hence the great white throne judgment. Therefore it is not rightly dividing the word of truth for saying it was THE FIRST resurrection and the only resurrection that has occurred.

The saints that came back with the Lord at the end of the great tribulation were part of the first fruits of the resurrection whereas those unrepentant saints, & former believers left behind along with new believers that will die when that fire consume one third of the earth and for the remaining saints after that fire during the coming great tribulation, they will be resurrected after the great tribulation at His coming which is after the battle is over and Satan is in the pit for a thousand years hence on earth when that happens; and not meeting them in the air as at the rapture event.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

So there is an order to these resurrection how saints will be made alive;

Christ, the firstfruits at the pre great tribulation rapture event;

Then they that are Christ's at His coming. See? Hopefully, the Lord will help you to see the truth in His words.

Keraz · Mar 9, 2020

Enow said:
Then they that are Christ's at His coming. See? Hopefully, the Lord will help you to see the truth in His words.

Yes; Matthew 24:31 tells how this will happen. We will all still be on earth and the Lord will send His angels to gather His people to where He is. That is; in Jerusalem.
You directly contradict scripture when you insist that Jesus Returns with His human saints. Matthew 16:27, Revelation 19:14

I don't hold out too much hope that you will see the truth of these Words.

Enow · Mar 9, 2020

Keraz said:
Yes; Matthew 24:31 tells how this will happen. We will all still be on earth and the Lord will send His angels to gather His people to where He is. That is; in Jerusalem.

Interesting part of that verse is that the angels are not collecting them from the earth but from the winds as in, in the air, fro one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You directly contradict scripture when you insist that Jesus Returns with His human saints. Matthew 16:27, Revelation 19:14

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Verse 28 is referring to His appearing as the Bridegroom to judge those worthy of ascension as being part of the firstfruits of the resurrection. Those not worthy are disqualified, castaways, as in left behind to become resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House.

Here is a cross reference showing the latter end of such a judgment on saints in according to their works.

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

As for the other reference of Revelation 19:14...

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Angels do not need to be clothed in fine white and clean linen. So that verse is about His coming as the King of kings with the pre great tribulation saints.

I don't hold out too much hope that you will see the truth of these Words.

I'm sorry if I came across insulting to you, but I was referring to the hope we are to have in the Lord on either side of the discussion as iron sharpens iron as only God can cause the increase since neither one of us can convince the other who is right, but the Holy Spirit in us can confirm the truth. It may not be now, but He can show us later on even when we are unwilling to listen because we have been led to believe otherwise by man's teaching.

I discern my way is right because it calls believers to be ready now and not when they see themselves being persecuted by the NWO during the great tribulation by resisting the mark of the beast which is a bio-chip when it becomes the only means to buy and sell to survive in that coming NWO.

How can anyone not discern the times when they see the remaining 2/3 rd of the world's armies marching unto Jerusalem only because one third of the earth ( the entire western hemisphere for why the one land mass was divided in the days of Peleg, leaving merchants of the sea stranded from her shores because of the plague within her & fallen Babylon ) has been burned up? Jesus will come back as the King of kings with the pre-great tribulation saints to do battle with said world's armies marching unto Jerusalem.

If the bad guys knew when Jesus was coming as the King of kings, how then can any one say no one knew the day nor the hour of that coming?

So the first coming is Jesus as the Bridegroom for the abiding bride of Christ for why God will judge His House first according to her works as per 1 Peter 4:17-19. Then He comes as the King of kings to judge the world in setting up His millennium reign on earth and then He will resurrect those saints that were killed during the great tribulation, after the great tribulation when Satan is in the pit for the thousand years, thus He is already on earth because He set foot on the mount of Olives to accomplish defeating the world's armies & putting Satan in that pit for a thousand years.

stunnedbygrace · Mar 9, 2020

Enow, I read your op and want very badly to be able to concentrate because I think there are some good things in it. Unfortunately, my concentration is gone right now, but I have marked this thread so I can return to it when my focus returns to me!

Enow · Mar 9, 2020

stunnedbygrace said:
Enow, I read your op and want very badly to be able to concentrate because I think there are some good things in it. Unfortunately, my concentration is gone right now, but I have marked this thread so I can return to it when my focus returns to me!

May the Lord bless you and keep you. May the Lord shine His face upon you and give you His peace.

marks · Mar 9, 2020

Hi Enow,

For the sake of simplicity I want to take a single point at a time.

Enow said:
So when Paul said that about we who are alive and remain, will be caught up, that was contingent to walking as we ought to in fellowship with the Father & the Son & not in darkness.

I don't see how the text allows this. "And we who are alive and remain" is not modified by anything. Are you here, remaining, alive? Then this is you. In Christ, that is.

that was contingent to walking as we ought to

The only qualification I can find in this passage is that we are "in Christ".

So yes there are admonitions to holy living, but no disqualification to being caught up as all who are in Christ will be.

Much love!

marks · Mar 9, 2020

Enow said:
Explain how you apply this reference to happen and on what day?

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

I see this being of the judgment of Christ.

We will all stand before God's judgment, but for the believer, we pass through the fire first. Then we are rewarded for our works that remain. If nothing remains, there is no reward.

The day shall declare it. What day is that? You say rapture, I say judgment, which is correct?

In that the passage says, "every man's work shall be made manifest", then this must be after the completion of every man's work, so that their works may be revealed.

If someone is left behind in a partial rapture, and this is the revealing of their works, does this mean that their works are ended at the rapture? I think this is judgment rather than partial rapture.

Much love!

Much love!

marks · Mar 9, 2020

Enow said:
Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Two things on this passage. The first is that Jesus tells this church that He will cast "her into great tribulation". This reminds me of another passages when there shall be great tribulation. But then, in this world ye shall have tribulation. Is any "great tribulation" THE "Great Tribulation"?

Which brings us to the other thing. To the messenger of the church, to the hearer of the letter, Jesus addresses them, "you", second person. To these that will be cast into a bed of tribulation, Jesus calls them in the third person. I'm telling you, Christian, that I'm going to cast her, and them, into great tribulation.

What Jesus doesn't say here is that He is going to cast you, Christian, into great tribulation for commiting adultery with her.

What I see here is the separation in how God treats the true and the false.

Much love!

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