Rapture Ready For Partial Rapture?

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Enow

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Explain why god said those in Christ will rise first and those alive will follow after. If people in Christ are left behind?

Depends on which epistle and chapter you are referring to.

Example... if you are referring to this reference;

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Is that contingent on what Paul had shared at the beginning of the chapter? If the readers are agreeing with Paul for how we ought to walk in Him, then they understand the promise given at the end of the chapter for abiding in Him and His words.

1 Thessalonians 4:1Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. 2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. 3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: 4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; 5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God: 6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. 7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
 

marks

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That last sentence is straight from Calvinism.
No. Maybe you read it Calvin's stuff. I've never been into him. But I get it from the Bible.

In other words, if you live according to the Spirit you will not sin, and live.
But what you mean here is not that you won't sin, rather, you won't commit certain sins.

So in all clarity, we're not actually disagreeing over whether you will commit sins or not, it's instead about which sins you might commit. By your testimony, you believe Christians might commit "sins not unto death", or "trespasses". But I say sin is sin, and all sin is lawlessness, and all that is not of faith is sin.

No sin measures up to God, all falls short of His glory.

In saying all that is not of faith is sin, this puts a much higher standard than the Law of Moses, and sins that were punishable by execution.

If we say we have no sin, let's not whitewash anything. If we say we have no sin, let it be because we actually have no sin.

That which is not of faith is sin. It's not of God. It's not of the Spirit. It's dead works of the flesh. No matter what it is.

So can we say that the life of Christ in me produces "inconsequential sins"? Venial sins? I'd say the life of Christ in my doesn't produce Any Sin Whatsoever.

And if it's not Christ in me, I figure it's my flesh. The dead one. The old man.

I truly don't understand how even unknown sins aren't sins just the same, and are a result of the corruption of the flesh, not the life of the Spirit.

Much love!
 
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Enow

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This topic has more to do with justification than with this.

I do not believe I was using the OP for the topic of justification as in salvation, but for running that race by looking to Him for help to abide in Him to be ready as well as being willing to go when the Bridegroom comes.

In this case, "escape" is to flee from, not be caught up. This isn't the rapture.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Hmm.. maybe if I included in context this reference in leading up to that reference in the same chapter?

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. 29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

Seems to me the escape here is to escape what is coming on the earth that believers will not be ensnared by the cares of this life like Lot's wife, and not want to leave.

But regarding justification, your idea is that some are more worthy based on themselves. I believe all are equally unworthy, but in Christ, all are accepted.

Much love!

It is not about justification since those left behind are still His as in saved, but disqualified from being received by the Bridegroom as vessels unto honor. That is where the vessels unto dishonor comes from as they will be resurrected after the great tribulation on earth, rather than meeting Him in the air.
 

Enow

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That which is not of faith is sin. It's not of God. It's not of the Spirit. It's dead works of the flesh. No matter what it is.

And do you still believe that all Christians will still be ready as found abiding in Him, even by what he or she builds on that foundation that deny Him will be judged? Is it no wonder Jesus said a parable of a wedding guest not wearing his wedding garment as what is not of faith, is sin and the works that deny our faith in Him is why some believers will be found naked?
 

marks

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And do you still believe that all Christians will still be ready as found abiding in Him, even by what he or she builds on that foundation that deny Him will be judged? Is it no wonder Jesus said a parable of a wedding guest not wearing his wedding garment as what is not of faith, is sin and the works that deny our faith in Him is why some believers will be found naked?
It's being in Christ that matters. Your behavior does not overturn your justification in Him. If you have been justified by God, that is. And it's your justification that determines being caught up, not your behavior.

The dead in Christ shall rise first, then we who are alive and remain. Those in Christ. Not those who had a good day.

Much love!
 

Enow

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It's being in Christ that matters. Your behavior does not overturn your justification in Him. If you have been justified by God, that is. And it's your justification that determines being caught up, not your behavior.

The dead in Christ shall rise first, then we who are alive and remain. Those in Christ. Not those who had a good day.

Much love!

Brother marks; what if those left behind are still justified in Christ Jesus to be considered His but they are disqualified because they did not run the race for that high prize of our calling to be the vessel unto honor in His House by His grace and by His help?

If a brother living in fornication and refuse to repent for why God commands the church to excommunicate him, this is not saying he is not saved, nor justified by Christ, but he is called to repent of his deeds because God will do the same kind of excommunication when the Bridegroom comes, and they will miss out in being a part of the firstfruits of the resurrection.

Otherwise, all of Jesus's warnings and Paul's & Peter's are moot if a believer can live in unrepentant sin as in having a sinful behavior, which you seem to be advocating here that all believers will be taken up regardless of what he had built on that foundation... and I say in according to His words, that's not true.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Depends on which epistle and chapter you are referring to.

Example... if you are referring to this reference;

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Is that contingent on what Paul had shared at the beginning of the chapter? If the readers are agreeing with Paul for how we ought to walk in Him, then they understand the promise given at the end of the chapter for abiding in Him and His words.

1 Thessalonians 4:1Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. 2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. 3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: 4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; 5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God: 6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. 7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
Ok I do not know where you came up with this but I do not have any desire to move on

I will believe what Jesus said in John 6.

John 6:39 (NKJV): This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
 
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Enow

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Ok I do not know where you came up with this but I do not have any desire to move on

I will believe what Jesus said in John 6.

John 6:39 (NKJV): This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

And yet there are several resurrection days; the one at the rapture and the one after the great tribulation so His words still rings true even for those saints not found abiding in Him or/and unwilling to go when He comes as the Bridegroom.
 

Jay Ross

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For all to consider.

If Keraz claims that the Pre-tribbers are wrong in their understanding, then his views concerning his understanding of the "Being whisked away to the promised Land of Canaan to be saved during the period of the Great Tribulation," are also wrong since the essences of his "theory," is strikingly similar to the Pre-tribbers theory of being "raptured" and therefore saved from the tribulation.

Both theories are based on flawed theological understandings derived from a respective wrong understanding of the scriptures where they have derived their respective theories from.

If the translators of our English translations of the Bible did not do a "literal," word for word, translation of the source documents that was the basis used for their respective translations, then the scholars provide a wrong understanding in their respective translations.

To say that we must only read the scriptures from a literal perspective by saying the following: -
No prophecy should ever be taken metaphorically, spiritually or symbolically at any time
: - simply means that the embedded message in the scriptures can never be found.

When Jesus said, "I am the Light of the world." in this verse: -

John 8:12: - 12 Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, "I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life."

How should we approach this verse? Literally or metaphorically?

If we can draw our understanding of Scripture either "Literally" or "Metaphorically," then why is Biblical Prophecy any different.

If the outcome of the Pre-tribbers' theory and Keraz's theory has the same outcome and purpose, then why are they any different.

I Keraz condemns the Pre-trib theories, then he also condemns his own theory of how the righteous will be "saved" from the tribulation period.

That was and still is my position on Keraz's condemnation of the Pre-trib position, or the pre-mil position or . . . .

This understanding is derived from a logical appraisal of both theories.

Shalom
 

Keraz

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Seems to me the escape here is to escape what is coming on the earth that believers will not be ensnared by the cares of this life like Lot's wife, and not want to leave.
Luke 21:34-36 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape
all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

So do you believe this prophecy proves a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church?
If so you are very deceived.

What does verse 35 say? The Day of Wrath will come upon everyone.
Verse 34 says we must be careful, or that Day will catch us unawares. Therefore; if we do carefully study and are aware of the signs, we can know what will happen on that Day and the season of its coming.
But, either way, that Day will come and we will be here to experience it.

Verse 35 says 'escape all these things'. This cannot mean a removal away from, as that is a direct contradiction of the previous 2 verses.
What it does mean, is told to us in many prophesies, of the Lord's protection during that terrible Day. Isaiah 43:2, Psalms 23 & 91, Isaiah 30:26b, +
 
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Keraz

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Keraz condemns the Pre-trib theories, then he also condemns his own theory of how the righteous will be "saved" from the tribulation period.

That was and still is my position on Keraz's condemnation of the Pre-trib position, or the pre-mil position or . . . .

This understanding is derived from a logical appraisal of both theories.
This post is a direct personal attack on me and the truths I have presented.
How can a refutation of the 'rapture' have any bearing on what The Prophetic Word does tell us of God's plans for His people?
 

marks

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Brother marks; what if those left behind are still justified in Christ Jesus to be considered His but they are disqualified because they did not run the race for that high prize of our calling to be the vessel unto honor in His House by His grace and by His help?

If a brother living in fornication and refuse to repent for why God commands the church to excommunicate him, this is not saying he is not saved, nor justified by Christ, but he is called to repent of his deeds because God will do the same kind of excommunication when the Bridegroom comes, and they will miss out in being a part of the firstfruits of the resurrection.

Otherwise, all of Jesus's warnings and Paul's & Peter's are moot if a believer can live in unrepentant sin as in having a sinful behavior, which you seem to be advocating here that all believers will be taken up regardless of what he had built on that foundation... and I say in according to His words, that's not true.
What about a brother who is living in dishonest and refuses to repent? And a brother who is holding a grudge? A little inner hatred? A brother who still lusts after that other girl?

Who would actually be taken in a partial rapture? The unrepentant adulterer at heart? Who once a year sees that person at the reunion, and every time falls into lust?

The person who just can't stand that fellow, and is a murderer at heart? The thief who burglarizes every night? The thief who always takes home the scratch pad from the bank?

I think this idea that some of us are a different catagory of believer isn't correct. A Christian is someone who has repented, aren't they? What does metanoia mean? Is it about the mind, or the behavior?

The drug addict, who is saved, but only for the past week, whose body Screams for their fix? And so off they go, they don't know what else to do . . . Left behind?

How do you see these things?

Is it just a vague threat over the heads of God's children? Fly right or I'll toss you into the Great Tribulation to be stung by locust things!

Much love!
 

marks

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if a believer can live in unrepentant sin as in having a sinful behavior, which you seem to be advocating here that all believers will be taken up regardless of what he had built on that foundation...
I'm of course not advocating sinful behavior if that's what you are saying.

But I'm saying that God accepts us not based on our behavior, but based on Jesus' righteousness. Some of us aren't more acceptible then others, we are all accepted in Christ alone. Not because I've been better or worse behaved.

I think I'm going in circles here, so maybe not much more to say on this topic.

Much love!
 
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CharismaticLady

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I can see I disagree

1 John 1 :3 is talking about habitual sin. Not personal sin. John is not saying a child born of god will never sin again. He is saying the will not live a life of habitual sin. Whoever does has never seen god

1 John 1: 8 does not mention self righteousness it says if we say we have no sin

I am glad your not catholic lol.

So you think you could ever commit murder as long as you don't make it a habit. Once is okay?

I don't know what is so hard to understand. Do you think 1 John 1:6 is a Christian? Do we walk in darkness or in light? verses 6, 8 and 10 are all the same type of person. One who has never seen the light, let alone can live in it.
 

Jay Ross

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This post is a direct personal attack on me and the truths I have presented.
How can a refutation of the 'rapture' have any bearing on what The Prophetic Word does tell us of God's plans for His people?

There is nothing personal in my comments about your posts against Pre-tribbers, I am just logically pointing out that your justification for being whisked away to be safe in the "Promised Land," is no different to the Pre-trib position. If you condemn the Pre-tribbers for being whisked away to heaven to be safe during the Great Tribulation period, then is there really any difference with respect to your theory of being whisked away to the "promise land" with the same outcome being presented in both camps.

If you are condemning the Pre-tribbers, then you are also condemning your own position which in essences is no different from the Pre-tribbers expectation of being "saved" into a safe place.

Please demonstrate where the processors are radically different in being "saved" during the tribulation period.
 

Eternally Grateful

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So you think you could ever commit murder as long as you don't make it a habit. Once is okay?

why do you ask about murder. James said any sin you commit makes you guilty. If you take two
Men. One commits Murder and one lies they are both guilty of the law and cursed

that’s the problem with legalistic thinking. You think because you do not
Commit murder or adultry or other certain sins your ok

I would rather not focus on what sin I commit just acknowledge I Am not perfect and keep running the race and concentrate on obeying the law of love

I don't know what is so hard to understand. Do you think 1 John 1:6 is a Christian? Do we walk in darkness or in light? verses 6, 8 and 10 are all the same type of person. One who has never seen the light, let alone can live in it.

so John walks in darkness remember he said if we he included himself. Then he also said if we sin we have an advocate why would we need an advocate if we no longer sin
 
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CharismaticLady

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By your testimony, you believe Christians might commit "sins not unto death", or "trespasses". But I say sin is sin, and all sin is lawlessness, and all that is not of faith is sin.

Do you see that some things can be of faith, and yet still be a trespass and you just don't know it?

Therefore your saying sin is sin is incorrect, according to God. I just agree with Him, but you don't.
Also saying all sin is lawlessness is incorrect
Just as you can have faith and it is still a sin.

No sin measures up to God, all falls short of His glory.

This requires two different responses, just like when you put a few different thoughts together that didn't go together. We are either sinners or children of God, but we can't be both. This is a point we disagree on.

If we say we have no sin, let's not whitewash anything. If we say we have no sin, let it be because we actually have no sin.

1 John 1:8-9 Question, if Christ cleanses us of all sin are we liars if we agree? Or are we sinners and the blood of Christ is insufficient to cleanse us from all sin?

I truly don't understand how even unknown sins aren't sins just the same, and are a result of the corruption of the flesh, not the life of the Spirit.

If you commit a sin and don't know it, how can you confess it? How is it cleansed? If sin is sin, and you murder someone on purpose out of hate, does the blood of Jesus automatically cover up that sin and you receive no punishment of spiritual and eternal death? Is that what not being under the law means?
 

CharismaticLady

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If we could be sinless we would earn salvation and no longer need grace we also would not need to continue to run the race we would have arrived. We also would no longer need to be sanctified we would be glorified

What is grace? How does it manifest in our lives?

We have already been sanctified when we were justified. The 'process' in our lives in Christ is continuing to be more and more glorified as we keep partaking of the divine nature and becoming like Christ.
 

Eternally Grateful

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What is grace? How does it manifest in our lives?

grace is receiving something you have not earned

people who receive grace are changed by it
We have already been sanctified when we were justified. The 'process' in our lives in Christ is continuing to be more and more glorified as we keep partaking of the divine nature and becoming like Christ.
Heb 10: 14 Hebrews 10:14 (NKJV): For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

Sanctification is a process
 

CharismaticLady

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why do you ask about murder. James said any sin you commit makes you guilty. If you take two
Men. One commits Murder and one lies they are both guilty of the law and cursed

that’s the problem with legalistic thinking. You think because you do not
Commit murder or adultry or other certain sins your ok

My point is a true Christian would never commit murder even once. But you say as long as you don't practice sin you're okay. What? Based on what scripture? The only time the word practice is used is in regards to righteousness, not sin. But the word commit means not even once.

so John walks in darkness remember he said if we he included himself. Then he also said if we sin we have an advocate why would we need an advocate if we no longer sin

So answer the question. Is 1 John 1:6 about a Christian? Do Christians walk in darkness or light, as 1 John 1:7 says. John walked in the light, so who is he talking about in verse 6.