The rapture theory

SwampFox has a good study at: http://www.christianityboard.com/rapture-l...study-t506.htmlThese are two of the best sites I know of on the rapturehttp://www.rapturerebuttal.com/http://www.goodnewsministry.com/

Hi RosHear is another good rapture site for yahttp://biblestudysite.com/rapture.htm

(ROS777;6818)
Thanks N2thelight, another very good site!I listened to that radio preacher ( called "Bible Answers", I think )when someone asked what will happen to babies when their parents " fly off " and he said " God will take care of them".Ha! Picture millions of parents raptured leaving little babies and children in speeding cars or alone in a house to fend for themselves, These false preaching says that those under the age of accountability won't be raptured!
That one teaching alone should tell any Christian with a lick of common sense that our God the loving God of the Bible would never operate that way.That would be a complete contradiction of what Bible has taught us of the character of God. He is our LOVING father that treasures every child as his gift he would never abandon all those helpless children in a world that had become as depicted in the "Left Behind" movies a world without Christians. If just one of those children died it would meet the qualification of murder(to make a plan that causes the death of another) which would make God guilty of breaking his own laws. Which any Christian should know is impossible.

So Kriss.I suppose that this is a different GOD than the one who destroyed ALL of Sodom....a different GOD who allowed the violence of 70 ad....a different GOD who destroyed the world with the great flood that killed ALL but the family of Noah....a different GOD than the GOD who will bring great tribulation on the earth.......what about all the helpless in these situations?....have you never studied the wrath of GOD?.....Rev 6:115-17"is plain when it states......" and the kings of the earth and the great men , and the rich men , and the chief captains, and the mighty men and every bondman, and every free man , hid themselves in the dens and the rocks of the mountains....and said to the mountains and rocks Fall on us , and hide us from the face of HIM that sits on the throne, and from the wrath (anger) of the LAMB....For the great day of HIS Wrath is come, and who shall be able to stand. A quick look at a concordance will convince one that there are more references to the anger, fury , and wrath of GOD, than there are to HIS love and tenderness. Because GOD is Holy , HE hates all sin...and because HE hates all sin, HIS anger burns against the sinner Psa 7:11. The wrath of GOD is as much a Divine perfection as is HIs faithfulness, power, or mercy. The foreunner of CHRIST warned the people to flee from the wrath to come" matt 3:7.. the apostle paul said.."knowing therefore the TERROR of the LORD, we persuade men" 2cor 5:11.....I offer these words not as a insult but in order for you to reconsider your stand concerning GODs love vs HIS wrath...... You and others seem to exagerate and ridicule those who hold to a rapture of the Church.....It is my opinion that this is due to a lack of understanding of the electing grace of GOD....but we have been over this before.....regards. Pop

Show me anywhere that God purposely killed innocent children without sin for no reason In fact if you study many of the peoples he did destroy it was because they practiced child sacrifice which he says is an abomination. If you think about it pops you know this is not in Gods character. By the way none of your above examples were without sin.

well kriss.the fact is ..there are NONE without sin..............tell you what...you show me a scripture that says children are without sin......and ...yes...the scripture I posted concerning acts of GOD that killed men, women and children are valid.......Pop

PopQuote"So Kriss.I suppose that this is a different GOD than the one who destroyed ALL of Sodom....a different GOD who allowed the violence of 70 ad....a different GOD who destroyed the world with the great flood that killed ALL but the family of Noah....a different GOD than the GOD who will bring great tribulation on the earth.......what about all the helpless in these situations?....have you never studied the wrath of GOD?.....Rev 6:115-17"is plain when it states......" and the kings of the earth and the great men , and the rich men , and the chief captains, and the mighty men and every bondman, and every free man , hid themselves in the dens and the rocks of the mountains....and said to the mountains and rocks Fall on us , and hide us from the face of HIM that sits on the throne, and from the wrath (anger) of the LAMB....For the great day of HIS Wrath is come, and who shall be able to stand. A quick look at a concordance will convince one that there are more references to the anger, fury , and wrath of GOD, than there are to HIS love and tenderness. Because GOD is Holy , HE hates all sin...and because HE hates all sin, HIS anger burns against the sinner Psa 7:11. The wrath of GOD is as much a Divine perfection as is HIs faithfulness, power, or mercy. The foreunner of CHRIST warned the people to flee from the wrath to come" matt 3:7.. the apostle paul said.."knowing therefore the TERROR of the LORD, we persuade men" 2cor 5:11.....I offer these words not as a insult but in order for you to reconsider your stand concerning GODs love vs HIS wrath...... You and others seem to exagerate and ridicule those who hold to a rapture of the Church.....It is my opinion that this is due to a lack of understanding of the electing grace of GOD....but we have been over this before.....regards. Pop"ReplyWhile it may be true that there are more instances of His wrath,His ultimate sacrafice(giving His Son to die for us)to me outweighs all of that)As far as sodom if you read the account God would have spared that city had even ten had been found to be rightous,but 10 could not be found.Now when you say God allowed the events of A.D.70 to take place,to me you are in essence blaming Him for those events,to which my advice to you is,be very careful of this,for God did not do this it was manAbout the flood, first I don't believe it was worldwide(would be happy to do a study)and the reason for the flood was to destroy the offspring of the fallen angels.And even then had the listened to Noah they could have entered into the Ark.As for the helpless,God knows the heart and Im very sure that they are more than doing just fine right about now.Now to the meat of this discussion,the false rapture,do you know why these people are saying to the rocks fall on us? These people want to die thats how ashamed they are,trouble is,this is the day that death takes a holiday, for at that moment all will be changed to their spiritual bodies.Let me try to explain to you why this false rapture is so dangerous,to those that have already died believing in this rapture I think they are ok,but for us living now in this generation(generation of the fig tree)we will see these events unfold,and if you don't know that satan comes first pretending to be Christ you will follow him,in which cass you stand a very good chance of dying the second death which is the death of the soul,let me said it like this,do you remember when Paul said he wanted to present you as a virginLet me let Paul explain it,do hope you really catch the meaning,and hopefully you will see why this false rapture teachings is one of the most dangerous teachings there is.Why?Because it will lead you directly to satan,so please understand that its not with ridicule that we teach against the rapture its to keep you out of the hands of satan which as I said above could led to the death of your very soul.With that said here is PaulII Corinthians 11:2 "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."Paul had converted these Corinthians and taught them enough to get their church on the move. Paul is speaking here about and directing attention to those people that are meddling with the church that he has established. Paul is having righteous jealousy over the converts that he brought to salvation, and he is telling them that he has made each of them part of "the bride of Jesus Christ", the anointed One. This isn't hard to understand, for most everyone knows what a virgin is. A virgin is an untouched woman. Paul is saying that he wants to present each of these Corinthians as a chaste virgin to Christ, in as much as they are the bride of Christ. Paul is saying that He doesn't want Christ's bride messed with by any of these super-preachers that are causing the divisions within the churches. For a young woman to be "espoused" to her husband means that she is completely committed to him, even before the vows have been exchanged. Paul is using this relationship whereby we could understand the emotions of Christ towards His bride. The feeling and commitment goes both ways, and applies to the man as much as it applies to the woman. It is no great secret what causes virginity to be lost, for it is being unfaithful sexually to the one you are espoused to marry. If a woman has been unfaithful, and is with child, how could she expect that she could be accepted by the man she was espoused to, when she is carrying another man's child? Paul is afraid that if Christians start listening to these fairy-tale preachers, they will be taken by the wrong christ, or Satan the Antichrist [the instead of Christ]. Then when Jesus Christ returns at the seventh trumpet, they will be found unworthy to be part of "the bride of Christ". Remember what Jesus said in Matthew 24:19; "And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!" He was not referring to a mother with a child in her womb, but spiritually speaking, Christians that have given themselves over to the wrong husband. In ignorance they will have been deceived into climbing into the spiritual bed of Satan, and their hearts have been given over to the Satan. If you are one of the whores of Satan, than you cannot be one of the virgins of Christ waiting with your lamps full of oil [which is the truth from God's Word] that is waiting for the coming of the bridegroom, which is Jesus Christ. Paul now is putting it into a language that most anyone can understand. Paul is saying; "I'm afraid that one of these false teachers is going to seduce you."Do you understand this,it ties right in with what Christ said about those who are with child and give suck,do you grasp the meaning of being with child and giving suck,think I will explain that one to,and do forgive me for such a long post,but as I said this is such a very important topicMatthew 24:19 "And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! "Woe" means that something real bad is about to happen, this means hell bound for sure. This verse has nothing to do with childbirth, or the caring for your children. Jesus is not going against the teachings of Almighty God, but this is directed to another marriage, a spiritual marriage. The purpose of this flesh age is so that each soul would pass through this earth age one time, and only one time. This was done so that each soul could make up his mind whether he would follow God or Satan.Jesus is speaking in a spiritual sense about those that that become impregnated with the mark of the beast. That "Mark of the beast", is a mark of service that is hidden over a long period of time. We are to know this mark, by getting to know who the Kenites are, because when you do not know who they are, then your are taking "the Mark of the beast". By not knowing the Kenites, and what they do, you become deceived by them, and drawn into their service. This is taking the mark in your forehead, and in your right hand; as recorded in Revelation 13:15-18.The bride of Christ is Christ church, made of all the members of the body of Christ. That is the bride of Christ, and today any person on the face of the earth can be a member of that bride of Christ. If you believe in Jesus Christ, and repented in Jesus name, you are a part of the bride of Christ. The husband then is Jesus Christ, and we are told to wait for His coming.If you have taken on another husband before Jesus return to earth, then spiritually you become married to another husband, being Satan. Christ is bringing this spiritual lesson down to a level of emotions that we can understand. It means that they didn't wait on the true husband, and now, spiritually they stand with child by the wrong husband, and are feeding others [giving suck] the spiritual bad milk that draws them to Satan. They are not virgins, Why? Because they are caring small children in a spiritual sense, and have become impregnated in their mind with the deceptions of Satan, the Antichrist. And they literally nourish along the work of Satan. This is the same as we saw in Revelation 13:15-18, receiving the "mark in your forehead, and in your right hand." The right hand refers to the fact that if you are in the world system, you will also will do the work of the world. We are living in that generation where many are going to be taught to worship Satan, right from their own Sunday school classes.You would do well to study Matt 24(think I will post it)for in it Christ told us everything that must and shall happen before His return and if you were to read it you would plainly see,that a rapture is not one of them

Thank you very much n2the light for your comment concerning the post I made....I will point out to you that those who worry so about GODs people who hold to the gathering together of the Church, are fretting for nought...for they warn that satan is duping the ones who long/look for the coming of the LORD to take them out of this world as promised (rev 3:10)and fail to understand that they(church) will already be with the LORD, when the anti-christ comes on the scene as a peacemaker. Also a consideration is not made concerning the verse that plainly says in mark 13:22 that false christians (anti-christ spirt) would seduce(lead away) GODs elect IF POSSIBLE....of course it is NOT possible.Swampfox......the verse you quote cetainly does not hold true concerning the matter for it expressly says "in that day" of course it must be pointed out that these spoken of would have been 30 some odd years old by the time of the affair spoken of...so actually they are the ones spoken to........FOX I am a little disapointed that you did not address the wrath of GOD. (not an insult) For you go a little deeper it seems and surely realize that some of the statements made above are from a human standpoint and not in consideration of the true perfect attributes of GOD which include the love, mercy, grace,etc of GOD and also include HIS wrath......Pop

PopsThere is no sense debating you on this again. For your mind is made up to follow the lies of men. Our only concern has been to save your soul, we don't have to prove you wrong God already has in his word,I could give you site after site,scripture after scripture, and you would still believe the lies of men. Our job is donewe are free of blame. You have free will to choose to stay in a stupor and believe a lie. We will pray for you Pops I'm truly sorry you do not have eyes to see nor ears to hear. One question you might ask yourself when all hell breaks lose on earth and your still here are you gonna lose faith? or follow him(anti-christ) that comes promising peace?

There you go ...insulting an old man again (perhaps you will receive a letter from swampfox)....I must be honest with you Kriss....I never take what you say serious.......I gave you a perfect chance to debate me on the wrath of GOD. You made a statement or two that can only come from one who does not understand the attributes of GOD. Thats all.......by the way if you are praying for me to turn from the blessed hope of the coming of the LORD JESUS for HIS church.......please dont......if your gonna pray for me pray that HE will sustain me and hold me up when met with adversity.......thanks.Pop

I insult you because I wont argue with you?I insult you because I state the truth that you believe men over God word?I don't understand how you consider any of what I said as an insult?Seems to me you are the one full of insults. 2 Timothy Chapter 4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; The doctrine of men not GodAnd they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fablesWere gonna Fly otta hereHere is more on your any moment doctrinehttp://www.rapturerebuttal.com/any-moment-rapture.html

And by the way I have said nothing different than Swampfox or N2 or Ros or servant or anyone else that has argued this with you on numerous occassions I may have said them in a different way but I agree 100% with them it is only you who are in disagreement. Maybe you single me out because you like insulting older women.The facts are unarguable THE RAPTURE IS A THEROY NOT IN THE WORD OF GOD, but a lie invented by men.The proof of it does not excist because it is not real so there is nothing to argue and I'm sorry if you find the truth insulting.Here is what God says:2 Thess- Let no Man Deceive you by Any means: for that day shall Not Come, except there come a falling away first, and that Man of sin be revealed, the Son of Perdition; What part of this do you not understand?

PopQuote"for they warn that satan is duping the ones who long/look for the coming of the LORD to take them out of this world as promised (rev 3:10)and fail to understand that they(church) will already be with the LORD, when the anti-christ comes on the scene as a peacemaker. Also a consideration is not made concerning the verse that plainly says in mark 13:22 that false christians (anti-christ spirt) would seduce(lead away) GODs elect IF POSSIBLE....of course it is NOT possible."ReplyHerein lies the problem with your argument,I will let Paul explain it againII Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"Paul is now getting to the purpose for this second letter. Paul reminded them of his first letter to them, of Christ returning and our gathering back to Him. Because of the misunderstanding that could be drawn from the first letter, he writes the following. It's important in this final generation that we pay attention for this will happen during our life time. The subject again of this letter is; "our gathering back to Christ".II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is [the Lord is just] at hand."Paul doesn't want you to misunderstand what he is about to say. This is why he makes it plain and simple; Paul told them not to confuse what he is saying here with any other teaching, or spirit, or even that first letter from him. This is because there was a confusing part in the first letter where false teachers had crept in and twisted Paul's words. The prime example of this today is the twisting of that first letter by the "rapture theorist", to form the trap that has been set for Christians in this final generation. Paul is saying, don't let anyone trouble you [confuse you], and tell you that the "day of Christ" is at hand. The "day of Christ [the Lord]" is the day when Jesus Christ will return to earth, and gather His saints to Him. This gathering will happen at the sounding of the seventh trumpet. This is one of those tradition's of men [false doctrines] that can deceive you. II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"Jesus Christ is not gathering anyone to Him, nor is He coming here to earth, except there be a falling away first. The word for "falling away", in the Greek is "apostasy". Jesus told us in His revelation to John, in Revelation 9:11, that "Apollyon" is one of Satan's names, and this name is derived from the word apostasy.The word "perdition" means "one that perishes". Satan and only Satan has already been condemned to die [to perish] by God. Satan's judgment day has come already back in the first earth age, and he will have no part in the Great White Throne judgment, or any other judgment yet to come. He has already been judged, and sentence by God to death "perdition" [Ezekiel 28 covers this judgment].What did Paul say again?Jesus Christ is coming back to this earth, but the saints of Christ will not be gathered to Him until the "son of perdition" [Satan] be revealed firstPops those verses are so clear that a child could understand,Paul clearly states that,that Day (what day?)our gathering back to Christ,will not happen(until when?)satan is revealed,so please tell me how you can say that the church will be gone before satan arrives,it's not possibleAnother point I would like to make,from Jesus HimselfMatthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."How long did Christ say we should endure?Until the end right,now let me ask you a question,when satan arrives on the seen pretending to be Christ,is that the end?No its not.So please tell me how is it you think the church will be gone already?Now lets look at Rev 3:10Rev 3:1010 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation [satan's (as the antichrist) hour, the great Tribulation], which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (KJV)You are kept from this hour by having the seal of God,which is His truth,not some kind of rapture.The truth is knowing that the first one to appear claiming to be Christ is false.Let me break it down a little moreRevelation 6:2 "And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."Do you know who the rider of this horse is?If you think its Christ you will be decievedThis one who rode on the white horse had a bow, but without arrows. He had the authority, but not the strength to back up his authority. What strength that he did have, was through deception. The rider of the white horse is Satan, in the role of the Antichrist. Satan will come first as the fake Christ, the Antichrist; and he will ride and conquer the people of the entire earth.This first seal we will see in detail in the ninth chapter. It takes place after the fifth trumpet sounds, Satan is the first morning star to come. This event will catch many Christians off-guard, for many tie themselves to the '"rapture doctrine", and will worship the Antichrist as the true Christ, in ignorance. This is why the rapture doctrine is so dangerous, for it ties its followers to the first Christ to come, who is the Antichrist.Revelation 19:11 "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war." This is the "Day of the Lord" and the one on the horse is Jesus Christ. "Faithful and true" is the name of Jesus Christ, as we will see him referred to this to the end of Revelation.Unlike the one on the white horse who came forth when the first seal was opened in Revelation 6:1-2, this white horse carries Jesus Christ when He comes to judge and rule the earth. This white horse will carry a man of righteousness.The other white horse carried the fake, the counterfeit, who would deceive those five foolish virgins of Matthew 25:1-13, and all who are looking for a rapture, and do not know in their minds that the first rider to come is the Antichrist. Our Lord Jesus Christ will make war on Satan, his one world system that worships him, and all false prophets that would lead God's bride to the AntichristMark 13:22 "For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect."You are soooo right in stating that it will not be possible to seduce the Elect but again the reason is because they have the seal of God in their minds,not because of a raptureOne last question for you.If the Church is raptured,how are the elect still here to even have a chance at being seduced?

I know Ros, you are right I provided the link because thats what Pops real problem with me is on another thread he wanted to know if I believed Christ was coming at any moment. That being a part of the Rapture doctrine Lie answered ,No. But he dosen't get that sense Anti-christ comes FIRST and sense he isn't here yet - Christ can't come yet so to be expecting him any moment would be to believe in the Rapture Lie. That he gonna come fly us away before the end.I believe God could bring the End Time events as written in his word to frutation at any time he choose's sense all time requirments have been fufilled as of this year 2007(40 years after 1967).But Christ won't come till the seventh Trump as you say, And the sixth has not happened yet. I trust Gods word to do as he says and if Pops doesnt take me serious because of that,so be it. It is Truth.You know what they say you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. So it is with Pops you can tell him the truth but you can't make him believe it.

The only truth I want to be led to is the truth as revealed in the scriptures. I feel I have been......you dont......so be it......The fact remains that I originaly responded to what Kriss had to say about GOD being nothing more than a murderer if and when HE left little children to perish at the end time. Perhaps I am to blame, for mentioning the rapture at the end of my post, for the subject going in this direction.(even if the original thread was speaking of the matter).......The fact remains that our readiness or our reluctancy to speak about or study the wrath of GOD is a sure test of our hearts true attitude toward HIM. If we do not truly see GOD for what HE is in HiMSELF, and recognize ALL the perfections which are eternaly found in HIM, then how can HIS love be in us? We each need to be on our guard as not to devise an image of GOD in our thoughts which is a pattern of our own human understanding. For the LORD did complain about this sort of thing in psalm 50:21..."thou thought that I was altogether as thyself"Many turn away from GODs wrath as though there is a flaw in the divine character. GOD has made no attempt to conceal the facts concerning HIS wrath. Vengance and fury belong to HIM......"See now that I, even I am HE, and there is no god with ME..I kill, and I make alive..I wound, and I heal..neither is there any that can deliver out of MY hand. For I lift up my hand a say I live forever. If I wet my glittering sword, and MINE hand take hold on judgment...I will render vengance to MINE enemies, and will reward them that hate ME"..Deut 32:39-41........... I have already pointed out the flood etc....where surely little children were lost in the fury of HIS judgment.....it will be NO different during the GREAT Tribulation....thats all...Pop