GEN 1:1-2 SPEAKS MORE THAN CREATION!

reformed1689 said:

There is no Scripture for this.

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I see it clear as day, if you don't it's all good ,however I will drop this from Peter 3 earth and Heaven ages.If you understand this the Word will open up,however some are blinded for their own good

II Peter 3:5 "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:"

Most Christians today, and all of the worldly people today are willingly placing their selves in ignorance on this matter of the creation. Old as it is spoken of here is very ancient, goes far back before the time of Noah and Adam, and even before the creation of the animal world and the earth age as we know it now. Peter is telling you that in the far past, there was a first earth age. Not a different world or planet, but the same planet [earth] existing in a time frame prior to as the earth exist today. The same world, but a different world age or time frame.

II Peter 3:6 "Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:"

That world age or cosmos that existed in that ancient time of the past, and everything that was a part of it was destroyed completely. All life on it was completely done away with. God destroyed it completely and it happened at Satan's overthrow. Many people believe that this flood was the flood of Noah's day, however, the flood of Noah's day did not destroy this world age, life from before that flood carried right over into the dispensation that followed one year later, after the waters had subsided.

Even in the first two verses of Genesis, God declared that there was a first earth age. Lets go there and study what the Word actually says there.

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

There are two bodies mentioned in this verse; the heaven and the earth. It simply states a fact, and left the time factor out. This verse not only did not say when, but left it totally to our imagination, as to the eternal span of time, and who the creation took place. In Proverbs 8:22 we read of wisdom speaking through Solomon. Wisdom is God, for all wisdom is of God. "The Lord possessed me in the beginning of His ways, before the works of old." What works of old could this be? It is the old earth age, spoken of in Revelation 12.

Proverbs 8:23 "I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was."

This is stating that wisdom was with God, and He possessed me.

Proverbs 8:24 "When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water."

Before there was any need of an abyss, or pit, and the water to fill them, God's wisdom was there.

Proverbs 8:25 "Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:"

Before the earth even took on its present form, with the high mountains and rolling hills, God's wisdom was there. God's wisdom played part in the creation of this earth, and all wisdom comes from God.

Proverbs 8:26 "While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the high part [beginning] of the dust of the world."

God was even there before that first Adam, or speck of dust of the earth was formed.

Proverbs 8:27 "When he prepared the heavens and set a compass (circle) upon the face of the depth:"

Proverbs 8:28 "And when he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:"

Proverbs 8:29 "When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the fountains of the earth:"

In other words what this is saying is that there was land, and oceans, and fields and lakes, and God set His commandment that they should be separated through the "compass" which He set: and we call it "gravity" today. This is the force that separates all water from dry land. When the waves hit the rocks of the shoreline, they resend back into the sea.

God allowed Job to be tested by both Satan and his fellow man, in the book of Job. However, after 37 chapters of man's nonsense, ramblings, and bad advise by those around Job, God spoke to Job.

Job 38:1, 2: "Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?"

Job had been tested to the point of losing his entire family, all his property, and he had been inflicted by sores and sickness, yet he did not curse God. He was in a poor frame of mind when God again came to Job. Job had been listening to the trash of men's doctrines for the first thirty seven verses of the book of Job, and now Job was ready to put those ramblings aside of other men, and listen directly to God.

Job 38:3 "Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou Me."

God told Job to straighten up and be a man, and listen to what He is about to tell Job. Then God spells out in detail how He laid out the foundations of the earth and the heaven, and all matters concerning them. Then in the rest of Job 38 and 39 God reveals the wisdom that we read about in Proverbs 8.

God told Job how He put the universe all together. Our God is infinite in wisdom and power, yet His love for His children is so great that He allowed Himself to be killed as a man, on the cross at Calvary hill. It was this act of love that made it possible for mankind to except Him as their Savior and approach Him as His child.

So there is a complete separation between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. Genesis 1:1 is the first creation of heaven and earth, while Genesis 1:2 is the destruction of this earth after the fall or rebellion of Satan.

Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep."

Who is the Spirit of God? He is the Holy Spirit, and it is God's Spirit that moved upon the face of the waters. In the Hebrew text the translation of the word, "was" as used in this verse "...the earth was without form,..."; we see in the Massorah test it reads "(to become) without form...". The earth was not created a ruin but it became a ruin after the fall of Satan. It is the translators that changed the word from became, to was when they put it into English. This is the same thing that happened in Genesis 2:7 "...and man became a living soul."

The correct translation of the Hebrew from the Massoretic text for these words, "...without form..." is "tohu-va-bohu". So we see that the earth was not created "without form", but it became [tohu] without form and void". Lets go to Strong's Hebrew dictionary, reference number 1961 to verify the word "was", that we read in this verse. "Hayah, haw-yaw; a prime root, to exit; to become, or come to pass."

Now lets continue in the Strong's Hebrew dictionary to get the pure meaning for the word "void". # 2258, on page 36 tells us that we have to go to # 2254 for the prime root word for the meaning of the word "void". "Chabal, khaw-bal; to wind tightly as a rope, to bind, to pervert, destroy, to corrupt, spoil, travail." This corresponds with its other use in # 2255, which is "to ruin".

"Tohu" of the earth, then means that total destruction has come to pass upon the earth. The second "was" in the verse is in italics type because there is no verb "to be" in the Hebrew language. This is one of the problems in translating Hebrew into English, the verb "to be" is not distinguished from the verb, "to become".

At the end of the first earth age of Genesis 1:1 that age ceased to exist in its precious form. God created the earth to be inhabited, and then He destroyed it. There was an entire earth age that existed between the first two verses of Genesis. This first earth age is spoken of in Jeremiah, Proverbs, and Jude, as well as in II Peter. We will look into these Scriptures and try to understand the deeper meaning of our Father's Word.

If you don't understand that there was a first earth age, you will not understand why God would say in Malachi 1:3; "And I hated Esau...". God hated Esau even while he was in his mother's womb. It was in the first earth age that God hated Esau, because of what he was and did in that first earth age. It was what Esau's soul did in that age, that angered God so; and that anger passed on to the embryo of Esau when his soul entered into this earth age. This is also recorded in Romans 9:13.

Genesis 1:2 then verifies that our earth is far older then 6000 years old, when in fact it is probably millions of years old. However, no matter how old this earth is, it is the only place in the universe that mankind, and the animals can exist in the flesh form that we are in and survive. We do not worship the creation, but we worship the creator, our Heavenly Father. God is in control of all of His creation, and He destroyed all forms of life that lived on earth from that first earth age.

Isaiah 45:18 "For thus saith the Lord That created the heavens: God Himself formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: "I am the Lord; and there is none else." "

God is speaking and Isaiah is writing what God is saying down, and God is telling us that when He created the earth, it was not in vain. "Vain" as used here is the same Hebrew word that we saw in Genesis 1:2, which was given as "void", or ruin. God created this earth to be lived on, and to be inhabited. Genesis 1:1 told us that God created the earth to be inhabited. "Tohu", the "destruction", was not part of the creation plan, but came after the fall of Satan, when one third of all the souls followed Satan in the first earth age, in verse two.

So when we go back into II Peter 3:6, "Whereby the world that then was, being over-flowed with water, perished." We see that it was that earth age that perish, and all that was part of it. It became void at the rebellion of Satan when he drew one third of the souls with him. This is what Revelation 12:1 - 4 is all about. It was in the first earth age that this took place, and what happened then is a type of what shall happen again in our generation.

Revelation 12:1 "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:"

In this chapter of Revelation we now leave the last three and a half year period of this age and return all the way back to the world that was [the first earth age]. Some of the events that happened in that world that was will be a type of what we will see in our present earth age. This wonder that takes place is a great sign in the heavens. The "woman" here is not the church, for a church building has never delivered any child. This mother has nothing to do with the church. This woman is "Israel", the twelve sons of Jacob, or tribes as described in John 16:21. The same political and social order that was in existence at the end of the first earth age, will be ruling over the earth in the end of our current earth age.

Revelation 12:2 "And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered."

This child to be delivered is the Messiah, and the woman delivering the child is the symbol of "Israel", however in the physical sense, we call her Mary. It is Satan's sole purpose to destroy this child. This is the wife and the son of Almighty God, and he wants us to feel these events occurring. What happens to them affects Him, exactly as it would you or I in a similar case.

Revelation 12:3 "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads."

This wonder, the "Great red dragon", is always Satan. Here again, it is all happening in heaven, prior to Genesis 1:2, in the first earth age. Just like it will be at the end of this earth age, Satan had seven dominions, with ten agencies of power and authority. Satan had complete universal control over that prior earth kingdom; and he also had total political control. This is pointed out in detail in Revelation 13, and it is a copy of what is happening in this earth age with the United Nations, and it's ten units of power that is taking control over all the dominions on the face of the earth.

Revelation 12:4 "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born."

The "stars of heaven" are the "sons of God". This old dragon caused one third of all of God's creation to follow him. One third of God's children are all those in people that lived then in their "soul bodies", which is also called angelic souls. So what this is saying here, is that when Satan fell he drew one third of God's children to him. He caused them to fall, and they worshipped Satan as God, and believed him to be God. That is his desire also for this age; to cause you and I, the children of God, to worship him.

When we read that "all living came from mother Eve", it means that "Messiah" came from, or through the womb of Eve. He came as the offspring of Eve, and her offspring Mary. And it is through the Messiah, Jesus Christ that eternal life to all mankind is offered. For you and I and all mankind to receive eternal life, each soul must pass from death to life through the blood of Jesus Christ. So we see this refers to spiritual life, and not necessarily physical life.

It was in that first earth age at the fall of Satan, when the third of the angels followed him that many took a stand on the side of God. This is why Ephesians 1:4 draws our attention to those that did make a stand then.

Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"

What does it mean to be chosen?

It means that there are certain people that God chose in the first earth age to do a task for Him in this flesh earth age. This is not reincarnation, for it is appointed for each of us to go through this earth age, the flesh earth age, once and only once. Hebrews 9:27 tells us; "...It is appointed unto men once to die [in the flesh], but after this the judgment." This appointing and chosing took place before the foundation of this earth age; before the age when the souls were placed in the flesh, for we are living now in the second earth age or cosmos.

"Without blame" refers to the fact that God intercedes in certain peoples lives. Certain people have free will, while certain others are of God's election, however, God doesn't play favorites. Christ died for the sins of all those who will repent; the chosen and the free will. Every soul must repent for the sins that they commit, and love the Lord Jesus Christ to have the hope of His glory.

"Before the foundation of the world", "world" in the Greek is "cosmos", meaning world or earth age. "Foundation" in the Greek is the verb for "the overthrow". This again refers to something that happened in that first earth age, before the overthrow by Satan, and the third of the angels followed him.

Remember back in Romans 8:27; "And he that searcheth the heart knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." These saints are the set-aside ones, or the ones chosen. God has a overall plan, and the purpose in that plan is to bring those children that fell back to Himself.

Ephesians 1:5 "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,"

"Predestined" means "from a time prior", or "required to do a certain thing" in the Greek. You have a choice of loving God, or loving Satan. God will not interfere with your free will choice to chose Him or Satan. However, that person that proved himself or herself during the overthrow of Satan, were "justified", or judged and earned the right to be called "saints" from that first earth age. These again are those which are called "God's elect".

Each soul comes from God and enters an embryo at conception. This is why Jeremiah was called a "chosen one". God said to Jeremiah in Jeremiah 1:5; "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou comest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet of nations."

"Sanctified" thee is to "set aside" Jeremiah for a purpose. Jeremiah's sins still had to be repented of, and the price of the blood of Christ had to pay for them, even though Christ had not been born in the flesh yet.. To be predestined is to be fore chosen. Just because you are predestined, God can still make life very miserable to those out of His will so they will repent and get back into His will for them. God has a perfect will and He is always fair.

II Peter 3:7 "But the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

This is in reference to the second heaven and earth age which we are living in now. This earth age will not be destroyed until God's time of judgment on the ungodly men of this earth has come to a close. That time of perdition [destruction] is after the Millennium age, and after the Great white throne judgment. Then will come the consuming fire. Hebrews 12:19 tells us that "Our God is a consuming fire." There will be no destroying of the earth by nuclear warfare, nor by greenhouse gasses or flood or any other man made causes. God is reserving the final judgment of this earth and mankind for His own judgment. Before that time can come, the events or prophecies that concern this earth will all have taken place, and that includes the "great apostasy", or falling away when the entire world will go whoring after Satan, the Antichrist.

II Peter 3:8 "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

That means one week is 7,000 years, and we are coming to the Sabbath of that week very shortly, which the common name for the next thousand years is the "Millennium age".

II Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

This means that you can count on our Heavenly Father concerning His promises. God has much patience concerning His children. It isn't God's will that any soul should perish. God did not even intend for Satan to perish, as stated in Ezekiel 28, but that doesn't mean God will not bring about the perishing of souls; for it is up to the soul to choose. That is what our free will is all about.

II Peter 3:10 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

"A thief in the night" is an figure of speech that means that Christ shall come at an unexpected time. In the English it sounds like a very scary time, but lets see what it says in the original text. The "elements" are not the elements that you think of, such as gold, iron, oxygen and so on, but they are the "evil rudiments" that go to make up the evil in this earth age. This includes the evil spirits, the fallen angels, and all the things and forms of idolatry that cause flesh man to sin. The time of this burning will be at God's appointed time, so this verse is addressed to all those things that go to offend our Heavenly Father.

So we have witnessed here in II Peter 3, all three of the three earth ages, as well as the three heaven ages that correspond with the earth age periods of time. We can also see why Peter warned us at the beginning of this chapter that he was going to stir up our minds, and to pay special attention to what was written in both the Old and New Testament. There is also another witness in the Old Testament to the existence of the three earth ages, and we find this writing in Jeremiah 4:22 - 27.

Jeremiah 4:22 "For My people is foolish, they have not known Me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge."

How many people really know God's Word? There are very few that can quote you anything from the Scriptures, except what can give them personal gain. The translators were kind to use the word "sottish", for the word in the Hebrews means "just plain stupid or silly" The nature of mankind is to make a buck any way that you can. Their minds are evil constantly, as they were in the days of Noah. However, in the ways of goodness, and doing right, there is a void.

Jeremiah 4:23 "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light."

Here we are getting right back to the same word that we read in Genesis 1:2; the Hebrew word is "tohu" for "void". God is telling us that He destroyed the first heaven and earth age to where there simply was no life forms existing on this earth at the close of the first earth age, in any form. Without the Sun or light, there can be no physical life.

Jeremiah 4:24 "I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly."

This is why the magnetic north is 90 miles off true north. God shook the earth and everything moved from it foundations.

Jeremiah 4:25 "I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled."

Did you get that? No man, nor animals, and not even the birds were left alive at the close of this first earth age. the earth was completely covered with water and life could not exist on this earth. There was no boat floating around on the surface, for the span of time could have been for thousands of years.

Jeremiah 4:26 "I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by His fierce anger."

In this flood there wasn't a tree or a blade of grass left with life in it. However, what about these "cities" that once existed? Yes, there were cities at that time, and God's anger and fury against Satan, and the third of God's children that followed Satan, caused God to destroy that entire earth age, and those cities were all part of it.

This is what God meant in Hebrews 11:7 when He said, I shook her [the earth] once and know that I will shake her again. The only thing that will be left standing in the next shaking, will be that which is unshakable, and it will only be those who have repented and have Jesus Christ in their heart that will stand. They are those souls that were sealed in their minds, and did not bow to Satan the Antichrist, his system, or take his name nor number.

Jeremiah 4:27 "For thus hath the Lord said, "The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I mot make a full end."

God allowed the waters of the first earth age to rescind, and from it came a condition whereby we can live in this earth age. Each soul, or child of God will pass through this flesh earth age, and we have the choice to choose either light or darkness: Christ or Satan. When God created each soul He gave them free will, He can not force that soul to love Him. You can not buy love, or it will be a false love. God is looking for your tender love; from within your free soul. It is your choice."

2peter3

Enow said:

Moses had killed that Egyptian guard for why I believe he was afraid to see Him, but he did see his back side. So there is that.

And God did walk with Adam in the Garden and wondered where he was when he was hiding from Him.

Well, unless you ascribe to the One Person Godhead, there is contention with how you are applying that to me for, because I said by the scripture that it was Jesus, the Son of God, before His incarnation was the God men had seen in the O.T. Now for the verses you had cited.

(John 1:18) "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

Jesus has seen God the Father. He says so again.

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

No man has seen the Father yet, but because the Son has seen Him, we will in Heaven where Jesus said we will not need to ask Jesus to ask the Father, for we will be able to see Him to ask Him ourselves. So when we put on the incorruptible, and in Heaven, we will see the Father & Jesus.

John 16:24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. 25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father. 26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: 27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. 28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

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Ok, so sense you acknowledge that no one has seen God the Father in all his glory save Jesus and the angels, you are basically proving your own Seth line theory wrong with it. Your claim that the sons of God in Gen 6 and the book of Job being of the lineage of Seth cannot possibly be true, since these "sons of God" are described as standing in the presence of God in heaven, no veil, no covering whatsoever like Moses was in the Tabernacle and on Mount Sinai. This means that all descriptions of God appearing before the saints face to face in the old testament without any covering are in fact NOT God the Father, but a pre-incarnate form of the "word made flesh", Jesus. You see, this is called being consistent with my interpretation of scripture, as exegesis dictates. Your line of Seth theory is the exact opposite. It is a theory full of holes, that are so big I can drive a semi truck through it ten times over.

Dcopymope said:

Ok, so sense you acknowledge that no one has seen God the Father in all his glory save Jesus and the angels, you are basically proving your own Seth line theory wrong with it.

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Not really since it was the Son of God as the Lord that men had seen in the O.T. and Jesus said so.

Your claim that the sons of God in Gen 6 and the book of Job being of the lineage of Seth cannot possibly be true, since these "sons of God" are described as standing in the presence of God in heaven, no veil, no covering whatsoever like Moses was in the Tabernacle and on Mount Sinai.

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The sons of God were not in Heaven when they presented themselves to the Lord if you follow Job 1:1, then they are on earth. Even Satan said he was roaming about the earth from where he had come from when he was there at that presentation of the sons of God.

And Moses problem with seeing God face to face but did see His back side, of which I ascertained that it was because he was a murderer, since it was not a problem for Jacob wrestling with the Lord in seeing Him face to face in Genesis 32:24-30

This means that all descriptions of God appearing before the saints face to face in the old testament without any covering are in fact NOT God the Father, but a pre-incarnate form of the "word made flesh", Jesus.

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Thanks to Jesus through the Holy Spirit in me, that is what I had posted, and Jesus is that Lord God men had seen in the O.T. And since Jesus had seen the Father, one day we will too, in Heaven. Just because the Father & Jesus are both invisible as in not presently seen at this time, does not mean either one is unapproachable in that kingdom of light in Heaven when we get there, being transformed in the image of His Son to be able to see the Father.

You see, this is called being consistent with my interpretation of scripture, as exegesis dictates. Your line of Seth theory is the exact opposite. It is a theory full of holes, that are so big I can drive a semi truck through it ten times over.

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Just saying so, does not make it so, brother. Everything I had shared, lines up with scripture.

Since we prophesy in part and know in part, we will know one day when we are face to face with the Lord, so for now, we agree to disagree, and leave it to God & trust Him to peradventure to show us otherwise before we see Him face to face.

Enow said:

The sons of God were not in Heaven when they presented themselves to the Lord if you follow Job 1:1, then they are on earth. Even Satan said he was roaming about the earth from where he had come from when he was there at that presentation of the sons of God.

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Know they were not on earth

Job 1:6 "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them."

Job 1:7 "And the Lord said unto Satan, "Whence comest thou?" Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, "From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."

So you saying God was on earth? If so why did He ask whence comest?

Also to prove they were not let's look at the below

Jude 6 "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

What is an Angels first estate?

The angels in Gen 6 were not of the line of Seth,had they been,the line that Christ was to come through would not had been corrupted, that was their whole purpose.

It is only by the Divine specific act of creation that any created being can be called "a son of God". For that which is "born of the flesh is flesh". God is spirit, and that which is "born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6). Hence Adam is called a "son of God" in Luke 3:38. Those "in Christ" having "the new nature" which is by the direct creation of God (2Cor. 5:17. Eph. 2:10) can be, and are called "sons of God" (John 1:13. Romans 8:14, 15. 1John 3:1).¹

This is why angels are called "sons of God" in every other place where the expression is used in the Old Testament. Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7. Psalm 29:1; 89:6. Daniel 3:25 (no article).² We have no authority or right to take the expression in Genesis 6:2, 4 in any other sense. Moreover, in Genesis 6:2 the Septuagint renders it "angels".

Angels are called "spirits" (Psalm 104:4. Hebrews 1:7, 14), for spirits are created by God.
That there was a fall of the angels is certain from Jude 6.
The nature of their fall is clearly stated in the same verse. They left their own (oiketerion). This word occurs only in 2Corinthians 5:2. and Jude 6, where it is used of the spiritual (or resurrection) body.

The nature of their sin is stated to be "in like manner" to that of the subsequent sins of Sodom and Gomorrha, Jude 7.

The time of their fall is given as having taken place "in the days of Noah" (1Peter 3:20. 2Peter 2:7), though there may have been a prior fall which caused the end of "the world that then was" (Genesis 1:1, 2. 2Peter 3:6).

For this sin they are "reserved unto judgment", 2Peter 2:4, and are "in prison", 1Peter 3:19.
Their progeny, called Nephilim (translated "giants"), were monsters of iniquity; and, being superhuman in size and character, had to be destroyed (see Appendix 25). This was the one and only object of the Flood.

Only Noah and his family had preserved their pedigree pure from Adam (Genesis 6:9, see note). All the rest had become "corrupt" (shachath) destroyed [as Adamites]. The only remedy was to destroy it (de facto), as it had become destroyed (de jure). (It is the same word in verse 17 as in verses 11, 12.) See further under Appendix 25 on the Nephilim.
This irruption of fallen angels was Satan's first attempt to prevent the coming of the Seed of the woman foretold in Genesis 3:15. If this could be accomplished, God's Word would have failed, and his own doom would be averted.

As soon as it was made known that the Seed of the woman was to come through ABRAHAM, there must have been another irruption, as recorded in Genesis 6:4, "and also after that" (that is to say, after the days of Noah, more than 500 years after the first irruption). The aim of the enemy was to occupy Canaan in advance of Abraham, and so to contest its occupation by his seed. For, when Abraham entered Canaan, we read (Genesis 12:6) "the Canaanite was then (that is to say, already) in the land."

In the same chapter (Genesis 12:10-20) we see Satan's next attempt to interfere with Abraham's seed, and frustrate the purpose of God that it should be in "Isaac".

This attempt was repeated in 20:1-18.

This great conflict may be seen throughout the Bible, and it forms a great and important subject of Biblical study. In each case the human instrument had his own personal interest to serve, while Satan had his own great object in view. Hence God had, in each case, to interfere and avert the evil and the danger, of which His servants and people were wholly ignorant. The following assaults of the great Enemy stand out prominently:—

The destruction of the chosen family by famine, Genesis 50:20.
The destruction of the male line in Israel, Exodus 1:10, 15, etc. Compare Exodus 2:5. Hebrews 11:23.

The destruction of the whole nation in Pharaoh's pursuit, Exodus 14.
After David's line was singled out (2Samuel 7), that was the next selected for assault. Satan's first assault was in the union of Jehoram and Athaliah by Jehoshaphat, notwithstanding 2Chronicles 17:1. Jehoram killed off all his brothers (2Chronicles 21:4).
The Arabians slew all his children, except Ahaziah (2Chronicles 21:17; 22:1).
When Ahaziah died, Athaliah killed "all the seed royal" (2Chronicles 22:10). The babe Joash alone was rescued; and, for six years, the faithfulness of Jehovah's word was at stake (2Chronicles 23:3).

Hezekiah was childless, when a double assault was made by the King of Assyria and the King of Terrors (Isaiah 36:1; 38:1). God's faithfulness was appealed to and relied on (Psalm 136).
In Captivity, Haman was used to attempt the destruction of the whole nation (Esther 3:6, 12, 13. Compare 6:1).

Joseph's fear was worked on (Matthew 1:18-20). Notwithstanding the fact that he was "a just man", and kept the Law, he did not wish to have Mary stoned to death (Deuteronomy 24:1); hence Joseph determined to divorce her. But God intervened: "Fear not".

Herod sought the young Child's life (Matthew 2).
At the Temptation, "Cast Thyself down" was Satan's temptation.
At Nazareth, again (Luke 4), there was another attempt to cast Him down and destroy Him.
The two storms on the Lake were other attempts.
At length the cross was reached, and the sepulcher closed; the watch set; and the stone sealed.

But "God raised Him from the dead." And now, like another Joash, He is seated and expecting (Hebrews 10:12, 13), hidden in the house of God on high; and the members of "the one body" are hidden there "in Him" (Colossians 3:1-3), like another Jehoshaba; and going forth to witness of His coming, like another Jehoiada (2Chronicles 23:3).
The irruption of "the fallen angels" ("sons of God") was the first attempt; and was directed against the whole human race.

When Abraham was called, then he and his seed were attacked.
When David was enthroned, then the royal line was assailed.
And when "the Seed of the woman" Himself came, then the storm burst upon Him.

"The sons of God" in Genesis 6:2, 4.

What you need to do is understand WHY!!!!

n2thelight said:

Know they were not on earth

Job 1:6 "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them."

Job 1:7 "And the Lord said unto Satan, "Whence comest thou?" Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, "From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."

So you saying God was on earth? If so why did He ask whence comest?

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So God can set the stage in His words for believers like you to know where the conversation was being held at as well as the sons of God; on earth.

Also to prove they were not let's look at the below

Jude 6 "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

What is an Angels first estate?

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Heaven, but the sons of God were not angels, so that doesn't really oppose what I am sharing.

The angels in Gen 6 were not of the line of Seth,had they been,the line that Christ was to come through would not had been corrupted, that was their whole purpose.

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No, it wasn't. All they had to do was try again after the flood if they were really able to do that. It's not like we read somewhere that God forbid or commanded them to marry any more to prevent them from corrupting the bloodline. We sure did not see Him regretting marrying the sons of God to the daughters of men. And yet we see why God flooded the world before and after the flood by pointing out that it was because of the wickedness of man from his youth to be having a heart that thought evil continually.

Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

Genesis 8:21 And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

That is TWICE now about why God flooded the world and it said nothing about the diabolical plot to corrupt the bloodline to prevent Christ's coming.

It's time to recognize that such application of His words to make angels like the mythical gods that mingled with mankind in producing offspring is a fable. The one glaring fact is how everybody who wants to believe in that overlook that fallen angels would not be called sons of God in His words, let alone would He marry the angels to women if they were really angels as inferring them to be sons of God.

If we are the sons of God by faith in Jesus Christ, then Adam being the son of God is why Israel were the sons of God by Seth's bloodline for replacing godly Abel. There is no point referring to something if that was not how out of mankind is how one becomes sons of God before Jesus Christ.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

So we agree to disagree.

n2thelight said:

Know they were not on earth

Job 1:6 "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them."

Job 1:7 "And the Lord said unto Satan, "Whence comest thou?" Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, "From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."

So you saying God was on earth? If so why did He ask whence comest?

Also to prove they were not let's look at the below

Jude 6 "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

What is an Angels first estate?

The angels in Gen 6 were not of the line of Seth,had they been,the line that Christ was to come through would not had been corrupted, that was their whole purpose.

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GINOLJC, to all.
the sence was on earth. Job 1:6 "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them". this is nothing new men "presenting" themselves before the LORD on Earth. scripture, Joshua 24:1 "And Joshua gathered all the tribes of Israel to Shechem, and called for the elders of Israel, and for their heads, and for their judges, and for their officers; and they presented themselves before God". so that's sheer nonesence that men with flesh and "BLOOD" in heaven... my, my, my.

as a matter of fact there is much, much more to this first chapter of Job. but no, when they presented themselves here in Job, it was here on earth.

PICJAG,

Enow said:

Not really since it was the Son of God as the Lord that men had seen in the O.T. and Jesus said so.

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Which proves exactly nothing to do with your Seth line theory, so.

Enow said:

The sons of God were not in Heaven when they presented themselves to the Lord if you follow Job 1:1, then they are on earth. Even Satan said he was roaming about the earth from where he had come from when he was there at that presentation of the sons of God.

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Well for one, Job was not a son of god, for two, it speaks of him being on earth. Three, when it speaks of the sons of God, it speaks of them being in the presence of God, whose presence is NOT on earth, but in heaven.

(Psalms 11:4-5) "The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD’S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men. {5} The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth."

(Isaiah 66:1-2) "Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? {2} For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word."

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And we know this is the case when God asked Satan where he came from, and he said he came from earth, going to and from in the earth, walking up and down upon it. The logic that follows is that earth was his previous location during this encounter.

(Job 1:6-7) "¶ Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. {7} And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro IN the earth, and from walking up and down in it."

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When Satan and God are finished with their discussion concerning Job, he is described as departing from the presence of God, changing the setting back to earth with Job from there on in. This isn't hard to see, anybody with a basic level of reading comprehension can understand the changes in the setting throughout the narrative.

(Job 1:12) "And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD."

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Enow said:

And Moses problem with seeing God face to face but did see His back side, of which I ascertained that it was because he was a murderer, since it was not a problem for Jacob wrestling with the Lord in seeing Him face to face in Genesis 32:24-30

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It never says Jacob saw the "Lord" face to face in his true heavenly form, neither does it say the same when Nebuchadnezzar and his henchmen witnessed the "son of God" in his pre-incarnate form in the furnace with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed–nego. They were definitely murderers times ten, yet they had no problem seeing him at all.

(Daniel 3:19-25) "¶ Then was Nebuchadnezzar full of fury, and the form of his visage was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed–nego: therefore he spake, and commanded that they should heat the furnace one seven times more than it was wont to be heated. {20} And he commanded the most mighty men that were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed–nego, and to cast them into the burning fiery furnace. {21} Then these men were bound in their coats, their hosen, and their hats, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace. {22} Therefore because the king’s commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed–nego. {23} And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed–nego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace. {24} Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. {25} He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God."

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Like I said, exegesis dictates consistency in your interpretations, and its not looking good for you. If you are going to claim that Moses killing to defend a fellow Hebrew from getting the kangaroo feces beat out of him was the reason why he couldn't see him face to face, then exegesis dictates that it has to be the same case for Nebuchadnezzar and crew. Your theory falls apart when it comes to them, therefore, it stands to reason that Moses couldn't see him because it was THE God in his true heavenly form, instead of the "Lord" showing himself in the form of a man, such as when he met Abraham.

(Genesis 18:1-8) "And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; {2} And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, {3} And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: {4} Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree: {5} And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said. {6} And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth. {7} And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it. {8} And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat."

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Therefore, it stands to reason that:

(John 1:18) "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

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Which makes your Seth line theory null and void, whether you like it or not.

Dcopymope said:

Which proves exactly nothing to do with your Seth line theory, so.

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You started that topic about how men cannot see God and live, giving Moses as an example. It seems you had forgotten your side bar point about the sons of God not being able to present themselves to the Lord on earth as if they cannot see nor approach Him.

Well for one, Job was not a son of god, for two, it speaks of him being on earth. Three, when it speaks of the sons of God, it speaks of them being in the presence of God, whose presence is NOT on earth, but in heaven.

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Is your grandson related to you? Do we not carry on that lineage by adding great to further generations? So Adam being the son of God makes Enos a son of God and so on and so on. That is the bloodline from godly Seth that replaced godly Abel from whom Israel is related to as the sons of God.

And we know this is the case when God asked Satan where he came from, and he said he came from earth, going to and from in the earth, walking up and down upon it. The logic that follows is that earth was his previous location during this encounter.

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Logically when following your belief, but not logically when taken by itself. The first meeting...

Job 1:1There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
2 And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters. 3 His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east. 4 And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them. 5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually. 6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. 7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Why start the Book of Job out talking about the goodness of Job and then come the sons of God presentation to the Lord, why mention Job if he was not among the sons of God presenting themselves to the Lord? If you believe they were angels , why point out a "man" when God should be pointing out an angel by name to show off to Satan if those sons of God were really angels?

If that does not convince you, it happened again.

Job 2:1Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord. 2 And the Lord said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 3 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Twice now this was done when the sons of God presented themselves to the Lord, Job was pointed out by God to Satan. It is no mystery to me thanks to the Lord for seeing the sons of God is the lineage of Seth as that phrase the sons of God is just a reference to Israel's roots.

When Satan and God are finished with their discussion concerning Job, he is described as departing from the presence of God, changing the setting back to earth with Job from there on in. This isn't hard to see, anybody with a basic level of reading comprehension can understand the changes in the setting throughout the narrative.

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If you read Satan going from the Presence of the Lord as departing from Heaven in according to your belief, then I understand why you believe that, but since the presence of the Lord has been on earth and the scripture has said so, even started out that way in the Garden of Eden, there is no reason to believe Satan departed from Heaven. Indeed, to speak of where he has been is to speak of where he was then, on earth on how he came across these sons of God presenting themselves to the Lord.

If you want an O.T reference besides Job; here is one of believers presenting themselves to the Lord in His temple.

Deuteronomy 31:14 And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thy days approach that thou must die: call Joshua, and present yourselves in the tabernacle of the congregation, that I may give him a charge. And Moses and Joshua went, and presented themselves in the tabernacle of the congregation. 15 And the Lord appeared in the tabernacle in a pillar of a cloud: and the pillar of the cloud stood over the door of the tabernacle.

It never says Jacob saw the "Lord" face to face in his true heavenly form, neither does it say the same when Nebuchadnezzar and his henchmen witnessed the "son of God" in his pre-incarnate form in the furnace with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed–nego. They were definitely murderers times ten, yet they had no problem seeing him at all.

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So you place doubt in His words by citing it was not the Lord in "His heavenly form", and yet the Lord did eat and drank what Abraham had provided for Him in Genesis 18 th chapter. Jacob named that place for a reason and the name is testifying to that event of Him seeing God face to face and lived in verse 30. If that is not enough, then read His words for why He renamed Jacob as Israel in verse 28.

Genesis 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

You should consider that you may have more than one belief interfering with you taking His words at face value.

Like I said, exegesis dictates consistency in your interpretations, and its not looking good for you. If you are going to claim that Moses killing to defend a fellow Hebrew from getting the kangaroo feces beat out of him was the reason why he couldn't see him face to face, then exegesis dictates that it has to be the same case for Nebuchadnezzar and crew. Your theory falls apart when it comes to them, therefore, it stands to reason that Moses couldn't see him because it was THE God in his true heavenly form, instead of the "Lord" showing himself in the form of a man, such as when he met Abraham.

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I cannot prove that is the reason why Moses cannot see Him directly, but it is obvious that other "sons of God" had seen God and had lived.

Therefore, it stands to reason that:

Which makes your Seth line theory null and void, whether you like it or not.

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Well, when you only apply His words to your belief rather than proving or disproving your belief, we will continue to agree to disagree. As it is, you doubt Jesus's own words that He meant what He said that angels do not marry nor are they given in marriage by God for any woman to be called wives to them in His words. You better believe that God is not joining those same sex couples together either no matter what people say.

Job a "son of God".
Job 1:3 "His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east".
here the word "MEN" is the Hebrew word, H1121 בֵּן ben (bane) n-m.
בָּנִים baniym (ba-neem') [plural]
בְּנִי bniy (ben-ee') [possessive singular]
בָּנַי banay (baw-nah'ee) [possessive plural]
(used widely) a son (as a builder of the family name).
{in the widest sense of literal and figurative relationship, including grandson, subject, nation, quality or condition, etc., (like H1 H251, etc.).}
[from H1129]
KJV: + afflicted, age, (Ahoh-) (Ammon-) (Hachmon-) (Lev-)ite, (anoint-)ed one, appointed to, (+) arrow, (Assyr-) (Babylon-) (Egypt-) (Grec-)ian, one born, bough, branch, breed, + (young) bullock, + (young) calf, X came up in, child, colt, X common, X corn, daughter, X of first, + firstborn, foal, + very fruitful, + postage, X in, + kid, + lamb, (+) man, meet, + mighty, + nephew, old, (+) people, + rebel, + robber, X servant born, X soldier, son, + spark, + steward, + stranger, X surely, them of, + tumultuous one, + valiant(-est), whelp, worthy, young (one), youth.
Root(s): H1129

yes the same word used in Genesis 6:4 for "sons of God" there. the same word is used here in Job to identify Job and his friends.
my question is Why didn’t the bible use the Hebrew word, H582 אֱנוֹשׁ 'enowsh (en-oshe') n-m. for men? It means,
אֲנָשִׁים 'enowsh (en-oshe') [plural]
1. (properly) a mortal (and thus differing from the more dignified H120).
2. (hence) a man in general (singly or collectively).

but the bible went out of it's way to make this bold statement of Job and his Friends. for if one would look very close, one whould see why he was called a "son of God". In the very first verse it states that Job is a Man, and the word used there is H376 אִישׁ 'iysh (eesh) n-m. meaning, a man as an individual or a male person. But in verse 3 the proper use of men here should have been, אִישִׁים 'iysh (eesh) the plural of man, which is “men”. No, God used H1121 בָּנִים baniym (ba-neem') in the plural, meaning “sons”, as in Genesis chapter 6.

if one would look at the story of Job one would see right in the very first chapter he was keeping the feast days way before israel.... yes. a good reading of the book is worth anyone while.

PICJAG.

Enow said:

You started that topic about how men cannot see God and live, giving Moses as an example. It seems you had forgotten your side bar point about the sons of God not being able to present themselves to the Lord on earth as if they cannot see nor approach Him.

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Well, they can't see him, unless you are calling Jesus a liar.

Enow said:

Is your grandson related to you? Do we not carry on that lineage by adding great to further generations? So Adam being the son of God makes Enos a son of God and so on and so on. That is the bloodline from godly Seth that replaced godly Abel from whom Israel is related to as the sons of God.

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Well the word "great" is never used anywhere in the Bible when describing lineages, so your point is null and void from the start. There was nothing about Seth that was any "greater" than Adam or any one else written. So no, Adam is called the son of God because his very existence is attributed directly to God, just like the angels. Its really that simple, its not rocket science.

Enow said:

Why start the Book of Job out talking about the goodness of Job and then come the sons of God presentation to the Lord, why mention Job if he was not among the sons of God presenting themselves to the Lord? If you believe they were angels , why point out a "man" when God should be pointing out an angel by name to show off to Satan if those sons of God were really angels?

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Well, he wasn't among the sons of god and "morning stars", otherwise he would have been mentioned as being among them. I can tell you haven't gotten very far into the book of Job. Its either that, or the first account of God appearing before Job in a whirlwind just went totally over your head. God never actually speaks to Job until chapter 38. All other conversations before that is with Satan and the rest of the heavenly beings. So once again, there goes your Seth Line theory out the window.

(Job 38:1-7) "Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, {2} Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? {3} Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. {4} Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. {5} Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? {6} Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; {7} When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

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Enow said:

So you place doubt in His words by citing it was not the Lord in "His heavenly form", and yet the Lord did eat and drank what Abraham had provided for Him in Genesis 18 th chapter. Jacob named that place for a reason and the name is testifying to that event of Him seeing God face to face and lived in verse 30. If that is not enough, then read His words for why He renamed Jacob as Israel in verse 28.

Genesis 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

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Lets stop with the straw man arguments. The issue isn't whether or not they saw God, the issue is in what form did they see God. Guess who else saw God "face to face"? Ezekiel did, in the form of a vision. This is literally the only full blown account we have of Gods true heavenly form.

(Ezekiel 1:26-28) "¶ And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it. {27} And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about. {28} As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake."

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Now there is your answer as to Gods true appearance. With this we can be 100% certain that Jacob, Abraham, Moses, Nebuchadnezzar and crew would be dead if they saw his true form with their own eyes, in our plain of existence. When the Tabernacle was made, the "holy of holies" that housed God was separated from the rest with a veil for a reason. When God told Moses that he would have died if he saw his face in his true form, he meant it.

Enow said:

I cannot prove that is the reason why Moses cannot see Him directly, but it is obvious that other "sons of God" had seen God and had lived.

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So why even bring it up in the first place if you can't even prove it?

Dcopymope said:

Well, they can't see him, unless you are calling Jesus a liar.

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And what is He saying here about that one day in the future that we will see the Father and no longer need Jesus to ask Him for us?

John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. 24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. 25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father. 26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: 27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. 28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

Well the word "great" is never used anywhere in the Bible when describing lineages, so your point is null and void from the start. There was nothing about Seth that was any "greater" than Adam or any one else written. So no, Adam is called the son of God because his very existence is attributed directly to God, just like the angels. Its really that simple, its not rocket science.

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It's usually goes the other way around with Adam being greater to Seth. If Adam be the son of God, then so are his lineage but what makes one the sons of God is what the scripture was written for as Moses was directed by the Holy Spirit TO the nation of Israel for they were the sons of God as testified in the O.T. as Seth replaced godly Abel.

Well, he wasn't among the sons of god and "morning stars", otherwise he would have been mentioned as being among them. I can tell you haven't gotten very far into the book of Job. Its either that, or the first account of God appearing before Job in a whirlwind just went totally over your head. God never actually speaks to Job until chapter 38. All other conversations before that is with Satan and the rest of the heavenly beings. So once again, there goes your Seth Line theory out the window.

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If you apply sons of God and morning stars to angels, then I apply them to the lineage of Seth. Why not? We are the sons of God now by faith in Jesus Christ. We certainly aren't angels but we will be made higher than the angels God be willing for those worthy of the firstfruits of the resurrection.

Lets stop with the straw man arguments. The issue isn't whether or not they saw God, the issue is in what form did they see God. Guess who else saw God "face to face"? Ezekiel did, in the form of a vision. This is literally the only full blown account we have of Gods true heavenly form.

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If you say it is a straw man argument, then we are at an impasse because your mind is made up on this regardless of what I share in His words. I remind you that you are the one that says His words did not really say that or meant that when otherwise plainly written, it did. You refuse to acknowledge it as it is written that men had seen the Lord and lived only because you are holding to your erroneous belief. So we will have to agree to disagree. There is no point in arguing about it when the discussion in the scripture is over as far as you are concern.

Now there is your answer as to Gods true appearance. With this we can be 100% certain that Jacob, Abraham, Moses, Nebuchadnezzar and crew would be dead if they saw his true form with their own eyes, in our plain of existence. When the Tabernacle was made, the "holy of holies" that housed God was separated from the rest with a veil for a reason. When God told Moses that he would have died if he saw his face in his true form, he meant it.

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And yet was Jacob a liar? Can his words be true when written in the scripture?

So why even bring it up in the first place if you can't even prove it?

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Only because you seem to be stuck on why God said it to Moses and yet other men had seen the Lord plainly enough and lived. I cannot ascertain why, but I did speculate it that the difference between Moses and the others was that Moses was a murderer, but I cannot prove that was the reason.

But since you have made up your mind about this, we are at an impasse for which we agree to disagree.

Do you understand the scripture,Noah was perfect?

Genesis 6:9 "These are THE GENERATIONS OF NOAH; Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Hoah walked with God."

The term, "and perfect in his generations," is referring only to his ancestry. Does it mean there was no sin in them? No; for we know sin came into this world through his ancestors, because the Bible clearly tells us of the sins of Adam and eve in Genesis 3, and Enos in Generation 4:26. Both Noah, and his wife came from families which are recorded in the scriptures, as not mixing with the fallen angels. Neither of them had a drop of angels blood in their veins.

The word "generations" in the Hebrew text is # 8735 in Strong's Hebrew Dictionary, and comes from the Hebrew prime; "Toledoth", and means family tree, or history. When we take "family history called "perfect", in the Hebrew text it is called "tamin", that family is "without blemish as to breed, or pedigree".

This verse does not speak of Noah's moral perfection, but tells us that he and his family had preserved their pedigree, and kept it pure, inspire of the prevailing corruption brought about by the fallen angels, [their children were called "Nephilim"].

Why would the line of Seth create giants?Answer,it wouldn't !!!!

n2thelight said:

Do you understand the scripture,Noah was perfect?

Genesis 6:9 "These are THE GENERATIONS OF NOAH; Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Hoah walked with God."

The term, "and perfect in his generations," is referring only to his ancestry. Does it mean there was no sin in them? No; for we know sin came into this world through his ancestors, because the Bible clearly tells us of the sins of Adam and eve in Genesis 3, and Enos in Generation 4:26. Both Noah, and his wife came from families which are recorded in the scriptures, as not mixing with the fallen angels. Neither of them had a drop of angels blood in their veins.

The word "generations" in the Hebrew text is # 8735 in Strong's Hebrew Dictionary, and comes from the Hebrew prime; "Toledoth", and means family tree, or history. When we take "family history called "perfect", in the Hebrew text it is called "tamin", that family is "without blemish as to breed, or pedigree".

This verse does not speak of Noah's moral perfection, but tells us that he and his family had preserved their pedigree, and kept it pure, inspire of the prevailing corruption brought about by the fallen angels, [their children were called "Nephilim"].

Why would the line of Seth create giants?Answer,it wouldn't !!!!

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I have yet to see any of them give a consistent, logical answer as to how humans breeding with humans produces nine foot giants like Goliath and his four brothers. Common sense should tell them they weren't brought about naturally. The tallest naturally born humans ever recorded in history always ended up with debilitating conditions and short life spans. You would think this alone would be evidence enough for the giants recorded in the Bible NOT being a natural human birth, that something weird was going on at the time, but Christians and their ability to reason through scripture never fails to disappoint me.

101G said:

you have given false information, but giving you the benift of the doubt please post the post number of your answer?

PICJAG.

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Just look it up. I'm not going searching the forums to rehash this. But Gen 1 clearly states Man was made on day six, not before.

reformed1689 said:

Just look it up. I'm not going searching the forums to rehash this. But Gen 1 clearly states Man was made on day six, not before.

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GINOLJC, to all.
Neither I, when I know that there is no answer you gave to reprove what I had said, and is saying, and will continue to say, that Adam was formed on day 3 before the animals and that God MADE the MAN and the WOMAN male, and female on day 6. from which came the woman that was "FORMED" from the man rib.

until there is solid scripture proof of it not being so, (which there is not), I’ll keep on saying it. so we suggest you study when mankind was "FORMED" vs when man was "FORMED".

and I reiterate Genesis 1:10-13 speaks of the third day creation, and Genesis 2:4-7 speaks of the same 3rd. DAY creation, when Man was formed.


the male and female on day 6, the sexes was created. the only thing that was "created" on day 6 was the IMAGE of "GOD".... which you have no clue as to what that "IMAGE" is.

PICJAG.