The False Doctrine of a 7-year Tribulation

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Bobby Jo

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... the 70th week of Daniel is in the future, not in the past. ...

A LOT of people don't know what they don't know. -- It's MODERN, but it's Historical MODERN, and we're only waiting for the Destroyer who "shall come" now after the seventieth week has been fulfilled.


Bobby Jo
 

Hobie

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Here is a even more comprehensive study...
"Dan 9:24

This verse sets the goals of the 70 week prophecy of Daniel.

(A) "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,"

- This sets the time period at 70 weeks. It is generally accepted here that you must use the day = year prophecy formula (Num 14:34, Ezek 4:6), yielding a time period of 490 years from start to completion.

- The word determined here actually means "cut off". This 70 weeks are cut off from, or begin at the same time as, the larger 2300 day (year) prophecy of Dan 8:14, which has as it's focus the cleansing of the sanctuary in heaven, the beginning of Judgment. So both the 70 week (490 year) and the 2300 day (year) prophecy begin at the same date. Note that you can not arbitrarily apply the year for a day principle in one case and not another, you must remain consistent. Dan 8:26 strongly hints that the 2300 day prophecy in verse 14 is not just 2300 days, but many days more than it literally indicates. This would also support using year instead of day.

(B) "to finish the transgression (rebellion),"

- Meaning to the Jews: end your transgression of (rebellion against) God's Law and return to obedience.
- Alludes to the victory of Jesus Christ over transgression at the cross.

(C) "and to make an end of sins,"

- Meaning to the Jews: repent from sin.
- Alludes to the victory of Jesus Christ over sin at the cross.

(D) "and to make reconciliation for iniquity,"

- Meaning to the Jews: Atonement for sins through sacrificial temple ceremonies (symbolic of Jesus).
- Alludes to the reconciliation for iniquity by Jesus Christ at the cross.

(E) "and to bring in everlasting righteousness,"

- Alludes to the death of Jesus the Messiah at the cross making everlasting righteousness available to all with faith. Without His death at the cross we are all condemned to the second death. By His death on the cross, the requirement of the Law was met and His everlasting righteousness established. Psa 119:142

(F) "and to seal up the vision and prophecy,"

- To fulfill / complete the prophesies of the 70 weeks (the dates of Messiah's / Jesus' baptism and crucifixion). Because Daniel predicted these historical events of the 70 weeks with absolute accuracy, we can also trust that the 2300 day (year) prophecy is just as accurate.

(G) "and to anoint the most Holy."

- As the earthly temple was anointed in Lev 8:10-11, so the heavenly temple was anointed by Jesus as he assumed the role of our High Priest, on his return to heaven. Also, Jesus himself was anointed as the Messiah at His Baptism (Mat 3:16, Mark 1:9, Luke 3:21).

So verse 24 has set the goals of the 70 week prophecy of Daniel. The twofold focus of the prophecy: first on the Jews reconciling themselves with God within the appointed time (490 years), and second, Jesus being baptized and paying the price of sin at the cross for us and becoming our High Priest. Note that there is nothing in verse 24 referring to the millennial kingdom, or the antichrist, or a seven year tribulation and there is nothing to indicate the 490 years are anything but a continuous period of time that ended in 34 A.D.

Dan 9:25

(A) "Know therefore and understand, that"

(B) "from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem"

- There were actually four commands issued that can be located in scripture and must be considered:

(1) Ezra 1:1-14, 1st year of Cyrus, dated to 537 B.C.
(2) Ezra 6:1-12, 2nd year of Darius dated to 520 B.C.
(3) Ezra 7:1-27, 7th year of Artaxerxes dated to 457 B.C.
(4) Neh 2:1-8, 20th year of Artaxerxes dated to 444 B.C....

Given the generally accepted age of 30 for Jesus (Luke 3:23) at His baptism in the 15th year of Tiberius (Luke 3:1) which can be independantly and firmly established as 27 A.D., only one of the decrees fits, that being the 3rd decree given in Ezra 7 in the fall of 457 B.C.* The others are either too early or too late to be the command referred to. The decree in Ezra 7 (vs. 23-26), permits civil and religious autonomy to be restored in Jerusalem in compliance with God's law, fulfilling Daniel's prophecy. So starting in the fall of 457 B.C. places the end of the 70 weeks, or 490 years, in the fall of 34 A.D., placing the year of the crucifixion, (which happened in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel), at the Spring of 31 A.D..

- Using this same starting date of the fall of 457 B.C. for the 2300 day (year) prophecy of Dan 8:14, you arrive at the fall of 1844 A.D. as the date for the start of Judgment in heaven (the cleansing of the sanctuary). In the Temple ceremonies of the Jews, this event occurred only once each year, at Yom Kippur, a type for judgment day. It has been underway in heaven since 1844 and continues at this moment. This is why at the second coming there appears to be no judgment - the Saints both living and dead meet Jesus in air (the rapture) and accompany him to the New Jerusalem in heaven, there to reign with Jesus for the 1000 years (John 14:2-3). For more information on the timing of the second advent rapture, see
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The truth about the rapture.

(C) "unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:"

- After 69 weeks the Messiah will be anointed by God as such. This happened at the Baptism of Jesus by John when the Holy Spirit descended as a dove and God the father announced Jesus as his Son (Acts 10:37-38). The end of the 69 weeks is mentioned by Jesus in Mark 1:15 when He says "The time is fulfilled". Counting down 69 weeks of years (483) from the fall of 457 B.C. you arrive at the fall of 27 A.D. for the baptism of Jesus. Futurists generally try to tie this event to the triumphal entry into Jerusalem. Yet Jesus entry into Jerusalem was NOT when He was first recognized as the Messiah, except perhaps by the people of Jerusalem. God the Father and the Holy Spirit anointed him as the Messiah at his Baptism - the entry into Jerusalem pales in comparison to this holy event.

(D) "the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."

- The rebuilding of Jerusalem would be rebuilt despite opposition. (Ezra 4:4,5 and Neh 4 + 6)

Dan 9:26

(A) "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:"

- Following the 62 weeks, the Messiah would be crucified for our sins. The 62 weeks, as we saw in verse 25 above, ended in His baptism. The exact time of the crucifixion is not specified here, but it is in verse 27. In effect, this is saying that the crucifixion will follow the anointing.

(B) "and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;"

- Jesus is the prince that shall come. The unbelieving Jews through their rebellion against God and Roman rule, brought about the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem in 70 A.D. by the Roman general Titus, crushing the Jewish rebellion, fulfilling this prophecy. The unbelieving Jews had rejected the ultimatum contained in the 70 week prophecy, and their destruction and scattering in 70 A.D. was the result.

- Some think the prince that shall come may apply to Titus, who tried to protect the Temple, but his soldiers destroyed it anyway against his explicit orders. Titus did not confirm any covenant, however, Jesus did (see below) .

(C) "and the end thereof shall be with a flood,"

- According to contemporary historians, the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple was swift like a flood.

(D) "and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

- One interpretation continues to apply this to the war with Rome and the destruction of 70 A.D.

- It may also mean that until the end of the war with Satan and sin, Jerusalem and the Temple will be desolate (lack the presence of God), their house being desolate - Mat 23:38 and Luke 13:35. To date this appears to be the case. See also verse 27(C)....
 

Hobie

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....Dan 9:27

(A) "And he [Jesus] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:"

- Some would claim that the "he" could not refer to Jesus since his ministry on earth was only 3 1/2 years in length. They try to apply this to the antichrist (the prince who shall come in verse 26) and a 7 year peace treaty (covenant) with the Jews. Note the following, verses in red were spoken by Jesus-

Rom 15:8 (KJV) Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

1 Chron 16:13-18 (KJV)

13 O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones.
14 He is the Lord our God; his judgments are in all the earth.
15 Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;
16 Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac;
17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,
18 Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance;

Psalms 105:8-11 (KJV)

8 He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.
9 Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;
10 And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:
11 Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance:
Matt 10:5-6 (KJV)

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matt 15:21-24 (KJV)

21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

(NIV) Mat 26:28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

(KJV) Mark 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

(NIV) Mark 14:24 "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many," he said to them.

- During this 70th week, the Gospel was preached only to the Jews.

- The event that ends the 70 weeks is the stoning of Stephen as found in Acts 7:59. At that point the Gospel was no longer preached exclusively to the Jews, Peter and Paul having been shown by vision to begin preaching to Gentiles (Acts 10 & 22:17-21). (See also Acts 11:18, 13:46, 14:27, 15:9, 18:6). The Jews are no longer the exclusively chosen people of God (Gal 3:28). See also the parable of Mark 12:1 and Luke 20:9. The original husbandmen (the Jews) of the vineyard are rejected, and replaced, never to tend the vineyard again. This does not mean they have been rejected as individuals. They can still be saved by faith in Jesus like anyone else. Promises made to the Jewish nation have been rejected by the Jews due to their unbelief, so the fulfillment of those promises will be made to those of faith, regardless of national origin (Gal 3:29).

- So the final week of the 70 week period left to the Jews continues unbroken from the baptism of Jesus in 27 A.D. thru to 34 A.D., to confirm and fulfill (seal up) the prophecy of Daniel.

(B) "and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,"

- In the middle of the week, in 31 A.D., Jesus is crucified, bringing an end to the symbolic temple sacrifices, which were a type (shadow) of his sacrifice at the cross. This is confirmed by the tearing of the veil in the Temple at the instant of his death, exposing the most holy place (Mat 27:51, Mark 15:38, Luke 23:45) signaling the end of the typical earthly sacrificial priesthood and the begining of.the priestly ministry of Jesus. The fact that Temple ceremonies continued until 70 A.D. is irrelevant.

(C) "and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation,"

- The temple in Jerusalem will remain desolate, lacking the presence of God, until the end of time. (Mat 23:38-39, Luke 13:35)

- Whether the Jews rebuilt the temple or not is irrelevant. It will remain in desolation. In fact, rebuilding the Temple and a resumption of Temple sacrifices would be the ultimate manifestation of unbelief and a complete rejection of Jesus Christ, the Messiah. It would be an abomination.

(D) "and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

- This has an initial application with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 A.D. The Roman armies first surrounded Jerusalem in 66 A.D. and then withdrew for some unexplained reason. The believing Jews understood Mat 24:15 to apply to them and they fled the city at this opportunity. The Roman armies soon returned and laid siege to Jerusalem, resulting in it's fall in 70 A.D. At that time thousand of Jews were slaughtered, not one of them was Christian. So this part of verse 27 finds fulfillment in 70 A.D. It may also be interpreted that Jerusalem and the temple will remain desolate of God until the execution of Judgment on the wicked, beginning with the last 7 plagues. That is to say Jesus will not dwell with His people until He does so after the second coming when the righteous dead are raised and the living are transformed, and they all join Him in the clouds (Rev 21:22).... THE 70 WEEK PROPHECY OF DANIEL
 

Hobie

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Now lets look more closely at the "abomination of desolation". We saw this verse in Daniel 9:27 (KJV)

"27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Christ refers to it in Matthew 24:15(KJV)

"15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)"

The Jewish Rabbis have pushed the view that it was when in 167 B.C. a Greek ruler by the name of Antiochus Epiphanies set up an altar to Zeus over the altar of burnt offerings in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem. He also sacrificed a pig on the altar in the Temple in Jerusalem.

But it doesn't fit, as Jesus declared it looking forward in time, so was it the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. And will it be a event turning the temple in Jerusalem into a place of worship for the Antichrist or the false Christ, which is truly an “abomination.”

So what is the abomination of desolation.
 

Hobie

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Lets go back with Matthew 24:

"15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matthew 24: 15-21).

When Jesus put the words “when you see the ‘abomination of desolation’” with “flee to the mountains,” he speaks of a terrible event, and we see it when Jerusalem is taken by the Romans in AD 70. But Jesus was also speaking of the time of the end. The disciples actually asked a question pertaining to the temple and also to the end times.

“When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?” (Matthew 24:3).
 

Bobby Jo

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Here is a even more comprehensive study...

All I'm asking for is ONE CITATION either in Scripture or in World History where ANY society summed non-incremented numbers as seen in the "VIOLENCE TO SCRIPTURE" (per Newton) as evidenced in Daniel 9:25. And YOU won't answer the question because THERE IS NO PRECEDENT. So you hide behind multiple words and justifications which themselves VIOLATE Scripture. I.e., the "weeks" are not literal "sevens" as though Daniel used the Concise Feminine Gender text. Young, Keil, & Kliefoth all agree that Daniel used the INCONCISE Masculine Gender text FOUND ONLY IN THE 9TH CHAPTER OF DANIEL, and is NOT used in the 10th Chapter of Daniel or anywhere else in Scripture.

And of course there are multitudes of additional failures, -- but you don't want to see those either. So go you own way and repeat the LIES of the commentators. And let your blood be on your own head, and the blood of those you deceive also on your head. -- I really don't care, after you've been warned.

:)
Bobby Jo
 
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Hobie

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There are two fulfillments of the abomination of desolation, the first was the literal siege of Jerusalem which began in 68 A.D. and the armies of Rome temporarily abandoned that siege, signaling Christians to flee the city. When the armies of Rome returned in 70 A.D., the temple was burned and Jerusalem destroyed, but the Christians had fled so they did not perished in the second Roman siege. This was the desolation referred to in Luke 21:20-21. It was the "type" or initial fulfillment. The second or "antitype" fulfillment which Christ also speaks to, is the answer to the question asked by the disciples with regard to the second coming.

Here is from my notes I put into Wikipedia as I am a editor.

:According to Roman historian Cassio Dio, after the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD the worship overseen by the High Priest ceased. The site was covered over with rubble and a pagan temple dedicated to Jupiter set up on the Temple mount when Hadrian became Caesar (117 - 138 AD). Hadrian installed on the mount, two statues which was seem as idol worship to the Jews, one of Jupiter, another of himself. Hadrian, not only set up a Temple of Jupiter as a center of worship to Jupiter, but expelled the Jews from Jerusalem altogether, only allowing them to come in the city on the fast of Tisha B'av, the ninth day of the lunar month Av, a day of mourning for the destruction of the First and the Second Jewish Temple. This appears to have caused a second Jewish revolt with the intent of recapturing Jerusalem and reconstruction of the Temple, however Rome sent six full legions with auxiliaries and elements from up to six additional legions, which finally managed to crush the revolt. The pagan temple appears to have been rebuilt in the early Umayyad period: as the al-Aqsa Mosque, the Dome of the Rock which sits on the site today.

The ceremonial system of sacrifices in the earthly tabernacle pointed to Christ, and He came as the Lamb of God and was crucified for our sins. So the abomination of desolation is what we have seen from then as the Jews were sent to all parts and on the Temple sat first the pagan temple of Jupiter and now the Dome of the Rock. So as we see in the question the disciples asked and the answer, the prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, which will be at the end, where again Christians will be warned or the coming destruction.
 

Hobie

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All I'm asking for is ONE CITATION either in Scripture or in World History where ANY society summed non-incremented numbers as seen in the "VIOLENCE TO SCRIPTURE" (per Newton) as evidenced in Daniel 9:25. And YOU won't answer the question because THERE IS NO PRECEDENT. So you hide behind multiple words and justifications which themselves VIOLATE Scripture. I.e., the "weeks" are not literal "sevens" as though Daniel used the Concise Feminine Gender text. Young, Keil, & Kliefoth all agree that Daniel used the INCONCISE Masculine Gender text FOUND ONLY IN THE 9TH CHAPTER OF DANIEL, and is NOT used in the 10th Chapter of Daniel or anywhere else in Scripture.

And of course there are multitudes of additional failures, -- but you don't want to see those either. So go you own way and repeat the LIES of the commentators. And let your blood be on your own head, and the blood of those you deceive also on your head. -- I really don't care, after you've been warned.

:)
Bobby Jo
Read the scripture and see what it says, that is the best hope of believers.
 

Hobie

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Now Christ points to what Daniel gives, and we see in Daniel 11:31: “31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.” Daniel 11:31(KJV)

This shows its tied to the relationship between God and His people and the accompanying worship services, and then the detestable introduction of idolatry. Solomon built for God what’s probably been the most magnificent sanctuary on earth. Yet Solomon also added worship places for his wives’ false gods in the start of what the Bible refers to as an “abomination.” ( 1 Kings 11 and 2 Kings 23.) Putting another god in place of the true God is abominable, it is a detestable act which leads to desolation when Gods protecting power is withdrawn.

Thus the “Desolation” is the result of what you get without God. Jesus warned of what was to come in His rebukes to the religious leaders, because they had persistently led the people away from God to the point of rejecting God. He told them of this coming judgment with these words: “38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.” (Matthew 23:38 (KJV)). John wrote of their rejection of Jesus: “11 He [Jesus] came unto his own, and his own received him not.” (John 1:11, KJV).
 

Bobby Jo

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Read the scripture and see what it says, that is the best hope of believers.

You have no answer, because there is no answer. You only have the lies of the commentators.


It's a sad commentary in it's own stead.
Bobby Jo
 

Hobie

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Lets go into scripture and go back to the destruction of Solomon's Temple as we find the Jews had been given a warning by Ezekiel:

"Thus saith the Lord GOD; This is Jerusalem: I have set it in the midst of the nations and countries that are round about her.6 And she hath changed my judgments into wickedness more than the nations, and my statutes more than the countries that are round about her: for they have refused my judgments and my statutes, they have not walked in them.7 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye multiplied more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my judgments, neither have done according to the judgments of the nations that are round about you;8 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, am against thee, and will execute judgments in the midst of thee in the sight of the nations.9 And I will do in thee that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all thine abominations.” Ezekiel 5:5-9 (KJV)

“11 Wherefore, as I live, saith the Lord God; Surely, because thou hast defiled my sanctuary with all thy detestable things, and with all thine abominations, therefore will I also diminish thee; neither shall mine eye spare, neither will I have any pity.” Ezekiel 5:11 (KJV)

“1And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,2 Son of man, set thy face toward the mountains of Israel, and prophesy against them,3 And say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys; Behold, I, even I, will bring a sword upon you, and I will destroy your high places.4 And your altars shall be desolate, and your images shall be broken: and I will cast down your slain men before your idols.5 And I will lay the dead carcases of the children of Israel before their idols; and I will scatter your bones round about your altars.6 In all your dwellingplaces the cities shall be laid waste, and the high places shall be desolate; that your altars may be laid waste and made desolate, and your idols may be broken and cease, and your images may be cut down, and your works may be abolished.7 And the slain shall fall in the midst of you, and ye shall know that I am the LORD.8 Yet will I leave a remnant, that ye may have some that shall escape the sword among the nations, when ye shall be scattered through the countries.9 And they that escape of you shall remember me among the nations whither they shall be carried captives, because I am broken with their whorish heart, which hath departed from me, and with their eyes, which go a whoring after their idols: and they shall lothe themselves for the evils which they have committed in all their abominations.10 And they shall know that I am the LORD, and that I have not said in vain that I would do this evil unto them.11 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Smite with thine hand, and stamp with thy foot, and say, Alas for all the evil abominations of the house of Israel! for they shall fall by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence.” Ezekiel 6:1-11 (KJV)

The abomination they were doing was laid out clearly for them:

"5 Then said he unto me, Son of man, lift up thine eyes now the way toward the north. So I lifted up mine eyes the way toward the north, and behold northward at the gate of the altar this image of jealousy in the entry.
6 He said furthermore unto me, Son of man, seest thou what they do? even the great abominations that the house of Israel committeth here, that I should go far off from my sanctuary? but turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations.
7 And he brought me to the door of the court; and when I looked, behold a hole in the wall.
8 Then said he unto me, Son of man, dig now in the wall: and when I had digged in the wall, behold a door.
9 And he said unto me, Go in, and behold the wicked abominations that they do here.
10 So I went in and saw; and behold every form of creeping things, and abominable beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel, pourtrayed upon the wall round about.
11 And there stood before them seventy men of the ancients of the house of Israel, and in the midst of them stood Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan, with every man his censer in his hand; and a thick cloud of incense went up.
12 Then said he unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen what the ancients of the house of Israel do in the dark, every man in the chambers of his imagery? for they say, the Lord seeth us not; the Lord hath forsaken the earth.
13 He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do.
14 Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the Lord's house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.
15 Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these.
16 And he brought me into the inner court of the Lord's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.
17 Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose.
18 Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them." Ezekiel 8:5-18 (KJV)
 

Hobie

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You have no answer, because there is no answer. You only have the lies of the commentators.


It's a sad commentary in it's own stead.
Bobby Jo
Its a nonsense question meant to divert from the truth, look at your Bible and see what it says.
 

Hobie

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Lets look in the Bible and understand. The desolation spoken by Ezekial came when Nebuchadnezzar laid siege to Jerusalem, in 587 BC. After the fall of Jerusalem, Jerusalem was plundered, and Solomon's Temple was destroyed. Most of the elite including Daniel were taken into captivity in Babylon and the city was razed to the ground and left desolate. On hearing this news, many of the Jews who were in Moab, Ammon, Edom, and in other countries returned to Judah. However the governor installed by Nebuchadnezzar was assassinated and the few Jews that had remained and those who had returned then fled to Egypt for safety. Thus the utter desolation from the abomination, for Jerusalem.

This prophetic event of the 'First Abomination' is found in the first two verses of Daniel. "In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah came Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon unto Jerusalem, and beseiged it. And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with part of the vessels of the house of God: which he carried into the land of Shinar to the house of his god; and he brought the vessels into the treasure house of his god" (Daniel 1:1,2). Here Daniel provides a concise historical background to what he is writing on, and it reveals the abomination of desolation was existent in his time and led to Jerusalem's captivity. Daniel reveals the reason the Jewish kings fell to Babylon. "Jehoiakim was twenty and five years old when he began to reign... and he did that which was evil in the sight of the Lord his God." It was because of Jehoiakim's iniquity that God allowed him to be taken captive.

The significant feature of this is that Jehoiakim's evil deeds are described this way: "Now the rest of the acts of Jehoiakim, and his abominations which he did, and that which was found in him, behold, they are written in the book of the kings of Israel and Judah: and Jehoiachin his son reigned in his stead" (2 Chronicles 36:5-8). It was specifically the abominations of Jehoiakim that led him and Jerusalem to lose God's protection and fall to Nebuchadnezzar.

Scripture tells us his sons also followed in his abomination, as Jehoiachin did "that which was evil in the sight of the Lord." Consequently he too was taken captive to Babylon, and "Zedekiah his brother" was placed as king over Judah and Jerusalem and not only did Zedekiah turn out to be just as evil as his two predecessors, but "moreover all the chief of the priests, and the people, transgressed very much after all the abominations of the heathen" (v. 12-14). God's political and religious leaders, as well as the people, adopted heathen ways as their own and away from God and true worship at the expense of God's revealed truth. Notice the people "transgressed very much after all the abominations of the heathen; and polluted the house of the Lord which he had hallowed in Jerusalem" (v. 14). These abominations were standing in God's consecrated holy place, the "house of the Lord." The religious leaders of the day had purposefully led the people to adopt heathen worship practices and incorporated them into their worship of God.

In substituting for God's commandments the traditions of men, the leaders of God's heritage provoked his wrath. The people rejected God's calls to repentance and reformation and were left to reap the consequences. "Therefore, he brought upon them the king of the Chaldees, who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary" (v. 17).

This judgment was felt not only by the people but in the complete destruction of the city and sanctuary (v. 19). This all was done "To fulfill the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath to fulfill threescore and ten years" (v. 21). The result of God's people practicing the religious abominations of the heathen was the desolation of their land, city and sanctuary for 70 years.

So when Daniel wrote about the “abomination of desolation,” the sanctuary in Jerusalem had recently been destroyed with the entire city and even the wall of the city were demolished, the place was left desolate.

But Daniel also wrote about the sanctuary being restored:

"25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."Daniel 9:25 King James Version (KJV)

We see this when the Jewish exiles returned to Jerusalem following a decree from Cyrus the Great (Ezra 1:1–4, 2 Chron 36:22–23), construction started at the original site of Solomon's Temple, which had remained a devastated heap during the approximately 70 years of captivity (Dan. 9:1–2).

After some local opposition the building resumed in 521 BC under Darius the Great (Ezra 5) and was completed during the sixth year of his reign (516 BC), with the temple dedication taking place the following year.

Now by the time Jesus issued His warning about “the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet,” Antiochus IV Epiphanes had reigned (168 BC), siding with the Hellenized Jews in Jerusalem to consolidate his empire and to strengthen his hold over the region, and tried to Hellenize the Jewish people which led to a revolt. But, when Jesus spoke of an “abomination of desolation,” it was more than a century after the Maccabean Revolt, so that certainly was not the “the ‘abomination of desolation’ He was indicating.

Ultimately the people were led full circle to disobedience again. Jesus comments that in spite of their apparent religiosity they were still breaking God's law even as their forefathers had during Isaiah's and Daniel's day. "Well hath Isaiah prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoreth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men... full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition... making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered" (Mark 7:6-13). Once again the people found themselves immersed in vain and rebellious worship.
 
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Bobby Jo

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Its a nonsense question meant to divert from the truth, look at your Bible and see what it says.

Keep running. You can't out-run the TRUTH, and the LIES you promulgate WILL CATCH UP TO YOU.


There's NO "seven & sixty-two". It's TWO separate durations.
Bobby Jo


To All,

How can someone seek the TRUTH of GOD, and the twist it into the LIES of MEN?!? It's inconceivable that someone would impugn GOD's Word to preserve their FALSE RELIGIOUS DOCTRINES. I know it happens, and I seen it face-to-face, but to live it HAS TO BE a TERRIBLE existence.

To Live A LIE!!!
Bobby Jo
 

Hobie

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Keep running. You can't out-run the TRUTH, and the LIES you promulgate WILL CATCH UP TO YOU.


There's NO "seven & sixty-two". It's TWO separate durations.
Bobby Jo


To All,

How can someone seek the TRUTH of GOD, and the twist it into the LIES of MEN?!? It's inconceivable that someone would impugn GOD's Word to preserve their FALSE RELIGIOUS DOCTRINES. I know it happens, and I seen it face-to-face, but to live it HAS TO BE a TERRIBLE existence.

To Live A LIE!!!
Bobby Jo
I think the truth has been laid out from what we are given from the Bible, and everyone can read for themselves and decide.
 

Paul Christensen

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Not so, the scriptures shows this was during the time of the Medo-Persian Empire and looking forward, and what came after it, the Greek Empire with Alexander the Great. Here is a good explanation..."The 2300 day prophecy in Daniel is the longest time prophecy in the Bible and is of vital importance to understand, and yet the truth of this important prophecy is rarely heard today. But on this page you will see this great prophecy come to light. Please prayerfully study this subject and ask God to guide you.

Daniel 8:13-14 ...'Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said, unto two thousand and three hundred days, then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.'

There are two sanctuaries mentioned in Daniel 8. In verse 11, we have 'miqdash', which can be a sanctuary dedicated to either God or an idol. And in verses 13 and 14 we have 'qodesh', which refers specifically to a holy place of God. So "the sanctuary" to be cleansed at the end of this 2300 day time period, as mentioned above refers to a holy place of God. We know that there is no longer an earthly sanctuary which was used by the Levitical priesthood, so this sanctuary must be the original sanctuary in heaven where Jesus dwells and mediates for us (which Pauls confirmed in Hebrews 8 and 9).

Let us confirm an important point first. The majority of other Christians believe that this prophecy relates to a literal 2300 DAYS, and that it will happen in the last days. But this cannot be right. If you read the vision in Daniel 8, you will see that it talks about a ram, a goat and a little horn. And Gabriel actually confirms who the ram and goat represent. They represent Medo-Persia and Greece. Which means the horn that comes after them is Rome. Both Pagan and Papal Rome.

So what does this mean? Think about it. If the vision concerning the 2300 'days' includes Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome, then that time frame of "2300 days" MUST be able to span those nations. Would 2300 literal days span those nations? No, but 2300 YEARS would! And this also means the 2300 "days" HAVE to start sometime during the reign of Medo-Persia, because that is the first kingdom in the vision (the ram).

This also lines up with the fact that the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel 9 is PART of the 2300 day vision, because at the end of Daniel 8 it says that no one understood the 2300 day vision. Then in Daniel 9, Gabriel says he has come to give Daniel understanding about THE VISION. What vision? The only one that is not understood is the 2300 "days". Gabriel then goes on to explain the 70 weeks prophecy, which everyone agrees is not 70 literal weeks (490 days), but 490 YEARS. So the 2300 prophetic "days" also HAVE to be YEARS.

And this all falls into line with the DAY FOR A YEAR principle in Bible prophecy.

Another reason why the 70 weeks prophecy has to be part of the 2300, is that without the 70 weeks which Gabriel gives to help Daniel understand the 2300 "days" (years), we would not have a starting point for the 2300 years, which would render that prophecy useless. But with the 70 weeks, we have a starting date.

The Vision
So to get a complete picture of this "vision" and a true understanding of it, let's start in Daniel 8, which is where this 2300 day "vision" begins. Daniel 8:2 ...'And I saw in a vision' ... So Daniel is now in a vision.

(v3) ...'Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns.'

(v5) ...'And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.'

Notice that these two animals are animals that were used in the Old Testament "sanctuary" service. This is another point which shows that the 2300 "days" (years) which deals with the sanctuary are connected to Medo-Persia and Greece, and cannnot be placed in the last days. So just to confirm without doubt the identity of these two animals, let us read what Gabriel says.

Daniel 8:20-21 ...'The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.'

Then in verse 9 we have this little horn that comes out from one of the "four winds of heaven", which basically represents the four directions of the earth. Now what kingdom rose to power after Greece? Pagan Rome! Which later on became Papal Rome, as Pagan Rome handed power over to Papal Rome - the Roman Catholic Church. Let's look at this 'little horn'.

Daniel 8:9-12 ...'And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down. And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.'

So this little horn, which rises after Greece 'waxes exceeding great', coming from the West, and conquers lands in the South, the East and also the 'pleasant land', which is Palestine. This refers in the first instance to the Pagan Roman Empire, which ruled also during the first advent of Christ and put Christ on the cross. Hence the term 'magnified himself, even to the prince of the host.'...2300 Day Bible Prophecy in Daniel
Also, Daniel had a vision of a humanoid image which, from head down, describes the Babylonian, Persian, Greek, and Roman Empires. Note that the first three are solid parts of the image, while the one depicting the Roman Empire are the two legs, which shows that the Empire was split in two. We know, what Daniel didn't know in the natural but the Holy Spirit knew, that the Roman Empire under Constantine did split in two, with Constantine appointing a leader to manage the Latin part of the Empire, while he ruled the Eastern part from Constantinople, effectively splitting the Empire into two parts at that time. This is conclusive in proving that the Bible is the true word of God, because only God could have known hundreds of hears after Daniel that the Roman Empire was going to split into two parts under Constantine.
 

Keraz

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Actually it is all misleading. The 70 weeks cannot be fulfilled until ALL these conditions have been met, and they were not met 2,000 years ago:

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people [the Jews] and upon thy holy city [Jerusalem]

1. to finish the transgression, [the trangression of the Antichrist (the desecration of the temple) is in the future]

2. and to make an end of sins,[the sinfulness of Jerusalem and Israel (the nation-state) is a fact]

3. and to make reconciliation for iniquity, [the Jews have not been reconciled to God through Christ as yet -- a fact]

4. and to bring in everlasting righteousness, [there is nothing but unrighteousness on earth, and it will get worse -- a fact]

5. and to seal up the vision and prophecy,[many prophecies remain to be fulfilled -- a fact]

6. and to anoint the most Holy.[the most holy temple in Jerusalem will be built after the Second Coming of Christ, and then be anointed by God's presence]
Right, they remain unfulfilled.

Know and understand this:
Daniel 9:24 Seventy sevens are decreed for your people and your holy city – to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, vision and prophecy ratified and the Most Holy place anointed.

Daniel 9:25-27 Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until the Anointed One, the ruler comes – there will be seven sevens and sixty two sevens. It will be rebuilt with streets and drains, but in troubled times. After the 62 sevens, the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come, will destroy the city and sanctuary. The end will come like a flood. War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He will confirm a covenant with the many for one ‘seven’. In the middle of the seven, he will put an end to the sacrifice and offering. In the Temple, he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out upon him.
Reference REB, NIV, KJV.

Verse 24 - The Angel Gabriel’s message for the end of this age:

1/To complete and finalize the transgressions of the wicked peoples.[Time of the Gentiles]

2/ To make an end to disobedience against God. [Punishment of His enemies]

3/ To make reconciliation for iniquity. [Forgiveness for His people]

4/ To usher in the age of Righteousness. [The Christians– ‘a light to the nations’]

5/ To fulfil prophesy. [The promises to the Patriarchs and to Israel]

6/ To sanctify the Temple. [The Third Temple, built by the people of New Israel; Beulah- Isaiah 62:1-5]


Verse 25: 70 times 7 = 490 years. The first 7 ‘weeks’ = 49 years, starts from the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem in the 20th year of the reign of Artaxerxes. This was in 445BC. Jerusalem’s walls and streets were rebuilt ‘even in troublous times’. As Nehemiah and Ezra describe.

Verse 26 Then another 62 ‘weeks’ = 434 years, plus the 49, makes a total of 483 prophetic years until ‘Messiah, the Prince, is cut off’.

There shall be nothing for Him’, means that at that time He did not receive the Millennium Kingdom. ‘The people of the ruler to come, will destroy Jerusalem, including the Temple’, refers to the Roman destruction in 69/70AD. This gives us the clue to the origin of the Anti Christ, who will lead a restored Roman Empire.

Then, there has been a gap of nearly 2000 years, till the present day.

The end period; the 70th of the 7 ‘weeks’ = 7 years will be made up of 2 periods of 1260 days each. It will be the closing time of this age, ‘the end shall be with a flood’. Flood is better translated as – an overflowing; of troubles. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

Verse 27 The Anti Christ will make a 7 year treaty with the ‘many. That is, the holy people of God: every born again Christian, living in their own Land. There will be a faithful group who will oppose this agreement, so this treaty is made with many, but not all of His people, the Israelites of God. Daniel 11:32, Isaiah 28:15.

The Anti Christ will break this after 1260 days, which will commence the Great Tribulation. He sets up his own image in the Temple, 2 Thessalonians 2:4, then after the final 1260 days, he will meet his end. Daniel 11:45, Revelation 19:20.