Regeneration before or after saving faith

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Renniks

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Many here have Charles Finney as their hero, and don’t even know it. They preach exactly what he did. He was responsible for more deaths by his decisional regeneration heresy than those who Calvin supposedly has killed.
No, I don't follow Finney either. Closer to Wesley than Finney, but Wesley wasn't always right either. In Calvinism, you can never know if you are regenerated or not, because it might just be temporary enlightenment of a reprobate.
 

FollowHim

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That was the culture at that time. There were all the inquisitions where the RCC killed millions, iirc. Ppl viewed those who they deemed heretics worthy of death. It’s not just a John Calvin thing. I’m not defending that practice, but that was the culture of that time.

On these forums, I have found similar antipathy and anger over one sentence or a particular way of expressing faith.
When I first came to faith, I found everything a sea of emotion and the word opaque, though when I spoke it, it made sense but I did not know how or why. I can now see that it was like I had a candle in my heart, with gloom all around.

Now I feel like I could talk for hours on lots of issues and pursue loads of issues, knowing Gods blessing and will.
It is hard to put this within theological language, because these positions relate to more than one theological framework.

Paul described himself a slave to sin, and then a slave to righteousness and the Spirit. Clearly being a slave to sin was before he came to faith, as all the time he preaches about being set free, cleansed and made Holy in Christ. So one could say we are not free, we are subjects in a Kingdom, or we are on a bridge, seeing both the Kingdom of God and this world, able to choose either. Certainly some of Pauls fellow workers went back to the world, while other like Timothy went from strength to strength.

I am impressed the reality is faith and belief carries us forward, if we believe God can achieve what He set out to do.
 

SovereignGrace

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So, Predestinating little infants to torture in an Eternal Hell is "profoundly gracious, merciful and lovely"?"

You act as if ppl deserve heaven. By the way, there will be no babies in heaven. If so, who is going to feed and burp them, tend to the nursery? But you truly believe ppl deserve heaven. The sooner you fess up, the better.
 
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SovereignGrace

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No, I don't follow Finney either. Closer to Wesley than Finney, but Wesley wasn't always right either. In Calvinism, you can never know if you are regenerated or not, because it might just be temporary enlightenment of a reprobate.

Sure I can know I am regenerate. 1 John 3:14 for instance.

Joel Osteen
T.D. Jakes
Kenneth Copeland
Benny Hinn
Jessie Duplantis
Steven Furtick

What do these have in common? They hold to free will, have millions of ppl following every word they say, and are heretics. Yet, many believe these are true men of God. Ppl can be, and are, deceived. And those who follow them will end up in the same place.
 
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SovereignGrace

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So, Predestinating little infants to torture in an Eternal Hell is "profoundly gracious, merciful and lovely"?"

God does not view infants as being innocent, but dead in Adam. Proof? You got it!


Then Samuel said to Saul, “The LORD sent me to anoint you as king over His people, over Israel; now therefore, listen to the words of the LORD. Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”[1 Samuel 3:1-3]

Right here God has commanded Saul, through Samuel, to completely wipe the Amalekites from the face of the earth. Even those babies that are breastfeeding, he was commanded to kill. God would not command a baby to be killed if He deemed it innocent in His sight.

How youse guise and how God views babies are completely different. Babies are under His wrath as well.[John 3:36, Romans 3:23, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 2:3, &c.]
 
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Renniks

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On these forums, I have found similar antipathy and anger over one sentence or a particular way of expressing faith.
When I first came to faith, I found everything a sea of emotion and the word opaque, though when I spoke it, it made sense but I did not know how or why. I can now see that it was like I had a candle in my heart, with gloom all around.

Now I feel like I could talk for hours on lots of issues and pursue loads of issues, knowing Gods blessing and will.
It is hard to put this within theological language, because these positions relate to more than one theological framework.

Paul described himself a slave to sin, and then a slave to righteousness and the Spirit. Clearly being a slave to sin was before he came to faith, as all the time he preaches about being set free, cleansed and made Holy in Christ. So one could say we are not free, we are subjects in a Kingdom, or we are on a bridge, seeing both the Kingdom of God and this world, able to choose either. Certainly some of Pauls fellow workers went back to the world, while other like Timothy went from strength to strength.

I am impressed the reality is faith and belief carries us forward, if we believe God can achieve what He set out to do.
That's all very arminian. We certainly can opt out. It's not that we aren't secure, but we aren't forced to remain.
 

Renniks

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Sure I can know I am regenerate. 1 John 3:14 for instance.

Joel Osteen
T.D. Jakes
Kenneth Copeland
Benny Hinn
Jessie Duplantis
Steven Furtick

What do these have in common? They hold to free will, have millions of ppl following every word they say, and are heretics. Yet, many believe these are true men of God. Ppl can be, and are, deceived. And those who follow them will end up in the same place.
That's like saying communist wear red so everyone wearing red is a Communist. If no free will, why are you arguing against it? If no free will, we are all destined to believe exactly as we do.
 
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SovereignGrace

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That's like saying communist wear red so everyone wearing red is a Communist. If no free will, why are you arguing against it? If no free will, we are all destined to believe exactly as we do.

That's not my point. My point is there are many who hold to free will who are false believers. It's not a strictly Calvinist thing. You stated that Calvin said many can have a temporary enlightenment as a reprobate. I showed you that your side of this debate is in the same boat.

Plus, our wills are never free. Our will is driven by what we desire. We are either slaves to the Christ or slaves to sin. Slaves aren't free, either. Straight from the Christ's lips “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth."[Matthew 6:24] You are ascribing to fallen man that which the Christ vehemently denies.
 
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SovereignGrace

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Babies are incapable of sinning. None of the verses you mentioned apply to them. Jesus said we must become like children for a reason.

Your view is not even Arminian. It is the heresy called Pelagianism. This view holds to the belief babies are born innocent, the doctrine of Original Sin is false. It is a heresy. A former pastor of mine, who is NOT a Calvinist by any stretch of the imagination, believes in the doctrine of Original Sin. This teaching is not a Calvinist only belief, but many non-Calvinists believe it, too.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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When does one become Regenerated? Does it happen before in order to empower us to believe or does it happen after we believe?

Play nice

follows believing the gospel and not before. (Ephesians 1:13) In regards to empowering us to believe, in John 6:44, we read - "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." In verse 65, we read - And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." The NIV reads "enabled him."

“Enabled” good word. John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: [13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Can one repent without He who brings to light the hidden things of darkness?
1 Corinthians 14:25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

1 Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

And lastly a quote that came up as the verse of the day: Deuteronomy 8:17-18 And thou say in thine heart, My power and the might of mine hand hath gotten me this wealth. [18] But thou shalt remember the Lord thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.

It is not by the power and might of our hand but God‘s hand...as God told Job.
Job 40:12-14 Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place. [13] Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret. [14] Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

It is Gods hand that saves.
 

FollowHim

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That's all very arminian. We certainly can opt out. It's not that we aren't secure, but we aren't forced to remain.
Does anyone really believe God forces anyone to remain. Everything is about choice, Adam, Abraham, Moses, Elijah. God asks, openly, freely and awaits a response. Korahs rebellion is a good example. The Lord left it until the final proof.

Everything rests on us knowing and choosing. Nothing is forced, because love desires this pure reality above everything else.

Even though satan has fallen he is asked what he thinks of Job. Jonah was asked to prophecy to Nineveh and he ran away. Jonah knew God and did not want Nineveh spared. Yet in the end he freely gave in, and did the Lord's will. This is profound how the Lord works. Not our way, not this patient.
 
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FollowHim

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They won't listen to documented facts like here: The Servetus Affair

Instead they use the green wood burning lie, it helps facilitate the hatred of God electing and predestining whom he wills. I embrace these truths, they are profoundly gracious, merciful and lovely.
Thank you for the article on Servetus.
I suppose for me the issue is sovereignty or the gift of choice.

If everything is dictated, why have the illusion of openness and invitation. Listen, hear, sow, follow, obey get reward, disobey lose it all. God is sovereign but choice is sovereignly put there.

Pharaoh chose yet was also hardened. God desires to take things to their end. Choices are structural, their consequences cannot shift. Adam died, Jesus brought life and light. Tie ourselves to either and inherit the consequences. God bless you
 

Preacher4Truth

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This is quite telling from that article...


“Sadly, every major Christian body which traces its history back to the sixteenth century has blood liberally scattered over its credentials. Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Reformed and Anglican: all have condemned and executed their Servetuses. . . .It is fair to suggest that it is improper to single out Calvin as if he were somehow the initiator of this vicious trend, or a particularly vigorous and detestable supporter of the practice, where the majority of his enlightened contemporaries wished it to be abolished. The case of Etienne Le Court, who was publicly degraded, strangled and burned by the Inquisition at Rouen on 11 December 1533, for suggesting that, among other things, ‘women will preach the gospel,’ would seem considerably more disturbing.”

They ignore or sweep under the rug that free willers also were guilty of having ppl put to death. None of us truly know all the details and how much authority John Calvin really had in Michael Servetus’ execution. I find it hard to believe he had that much authority but none of us really knows.
That's not my point. My point is there are many who hold to free will who are false believers. It's not a strictly Calvinist thing. You stated that Calvin said many can have a temporary enlightenment as a reprobate. I showed you that your side of this debate is in the same boat.

Plus, our wills are never free. Our will is driven by what we desire. We are either slaves to the Christ or slaves to sin. Slaves aren't free, either. Straight from the Christ's lips “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth."[Matthew 6:24] You are ascribing to fallen man that which the Christ vehemently denies.
Yes, men can have temporary enlightment; The parable of soils speaks to this Matthew 13:1-9. Also Hebrews 6 speaks of the same.
 
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Preacher4Truth

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Thank you for the article on Servetus.
I suppose for me the issue is sovereignty or the gift of choice.

If everything is dictated, why have the illusion of openness and invitation. Listen, hear, sow, follow, obey get reward, disobey lose it all. God is sovereign but choice is sovereignly put there.

Pharaoh chose yet was also hardened. God desires to take things to their end. Choices are structural, their consequences cannot shift. Adam died, Jesus brought life and light. Tie ourselves to either and inherit the consequences. God bless you
I don't see that Pharaoh chose, but only did according to his nature and God hardened him further. God certainly left him in his sin; note Romans 9:14-18. Only Christ frees from sin; John 8:31-38.

The commands are for his people, they follow him, hear his voice, though we are feeble sheep who need instruction from his word.

I wouldn't use the word dictate; Luke 19:21. Seeing God in that light is a reflection of us, not God; Psalms 18:26. We see God as loving us and as love; Romans 8:28ff; 1 John 4:7-8. I say all this as a way of edification brother, not in a manner of accusing. I hope you know I'm being sincere.
 
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FollowHim

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I don't see that Pharaoh chose, but only did according to his nature and God hardened him further. God certainly left him in his sin; note Romans 9:14-18. Only Christ frees from sin; John 8:31-38.

The commands are for his people, they follow him, hear his voice, though we are feeble sheep who need instruction from his word.

I wouldn't use the word dictate; Luke 19:21. Seeing God in that light is a reflection of us, not God; Psalms 18:26. We see God as loving us and as love; Romans 8:28ff; 1 John 4:7-8. I say all this as a way of edification brother, not in a manner of accusing. I hope you know I'm being sincere.
I think this highlights the issue around the word chose. Pharaoh's were a kind of God, and clearly were just human. So they could choose to listen to God. Sin is subtle, like the addict says they can choose not to do something, yet each time they fail.

One Pharaoh chose to worship one god, but did not last long.

I think our choice is very balanced, which is why we find it so hard. We want certainty, and find responsibility hard to handle.

Jesus was tested. We follow Jesus, so likewise our testing will happen. Money, sex, power, greed, envy, slough all will pass our path.

Choice matters. Choice shows our fruit, prunes and refines us. God bless you​
 
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Renniks

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Babies are born dead in sin. If a baby is sinless, it can not die. For the wages of sin is death,[Romans 6:23a]
Again, a verse that doesn't say what you said.
"as for your little ones, who you said would become a prey, and your children, who today have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in there. And to them I will give it, and they shall possess it." Deuteronomy 1
 
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