Who Is "the Restrainer" In 2 Thess. 2:6-7

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cbdewd

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Polar said:
In 2 Thess 2:6-7 it talks about the restrainer who is holding back evil and lawlessness.I am curious as to what people here think Paul is talking about.I am pressed for time so I will return later to read what is said and to give my personal opinion.Please...keep it simple and only post Bible verses if they actually directly pertain to this specific topic.Again, directly pertain to this specific topic. It is so difficult to wade through some threads here because some people seem to think volume equates quality.Thank you in advance.
Do not read the passage out of context. Keep the purpose of what Paul is dealing with in mind. Don't separate the passages but maintain the pericope of the chapter.

Read it again in its entirety. Satan is the restrainer. He must bring about the apostacy and the antichrist before Christ comes back.

The context is directly talking to when Christ will come but will not come until the lawless one comes first. The lawless one is the 'restrainer' to Christ's coming. The rumors were that Christ had already had come and Paul is dealing with that false rumor.

2Th 2:1 Now we ask you, brothers, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus, the Messiah, and our gathering together to him,
2Th 2:2 not to be so quickly upset or alarmed when someone claims that we said, either by some spirit, conversation, or letter that the Day of the Lord has already come.
2Th 2:3 Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, for it will not come unless the rebellion takes place first and the man of sin, who is destined for destruction, is revealed.
2Th 2:4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god and object of worship. As a result, he seats himself in the sanctuary of God and himself declares that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Don't you remember that I repeatedly told you about these things when I was still with you?
2Th 2:6 You know what it is that is now holding him back, so that he will be revealed when his time comes.
2Th 2:7 For the secret of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the person now holding it back gets out of the way.
2Th 2:8 Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will destroy with the breath of his mouth, rendering him powerless by the manifestation of his coming.
2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one will be accompanied by the power of Satan. He will use every kind of power, including miraculous signs, lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 and every type of evil to deceive those who are dying, those who refused to love the truth that would save them.
2Th 2:11 For this reason, God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie.
2Th 2:12 Then all who have not believed the truth but have taken pleasure in unrighteousness will be condemned.
2Th 2:13 At all times we are obligated to thank God for you, brothers who are loved by the Lord, because God chose you to be the first fruits for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through faith in the truth.
2Th 2:14 With this purpose in mind, he called you through our proclamation of the gospel so that you would obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus, the Messiah.

ISV

John also states that the anti-christ is coming and yet in the world now. This anti-christ spirit is Satan. Jesus Christ is 'holding back' until Satan has been revealed in the lawless one and then Jesus will come back to destroy him. John makes it clear that "this is how know" we are in the last times.

1Jn_4:3 But every spirit who does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist. You have heard that he is coming, and now he is already in the world.

1Jn_2:18 Little children, it is the last hour. Just as you heard that an antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour.

Both writers make it clear that the church has been told about the antichrist.

2Th 2:6 You know what it is
1 Jn 4:3 You have heard that he is coming,
1Jn_2:18 Just as you heard
 

Wormwood

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cbd,

I appreciate your desire to keep the passage in context. However, I disagree with your position. I think if we look at the context, we see the passage that speaks of "holding him back" (possibly translated a different way), it is referring to the "revealing of the lawless one." Moreover, the context shows that the "rebellion must take place first." So, it seems there are two things spoken about here being revealed. One is the appearing of the Lord Jesus, and the other is the "lawless one" who must be "revealed" and destroyed.

Also, the passages in 1 John refer to a multitude of antichrists, not a singular figure. In fact, "antichrist" according to John, is a spirit that is at work in the multitude of false teachers that were seeking to divide the church and litter it with false teachings about Jesus.

Therefore, in my estimation, "antichrist" is the work of Satan. Paul is saying that we know Jesus hasn't returned because there is still evil going on in the world and those who oppose Christ. When Jesus returns, the evil one will be revealed and destroyed. Thus, all evil and antichrist work will be destroyed when Christ returns. In the same way, John is saying that the spirit of antichrist is at work in the world and is ongoing. Its not one individual, but a spiritual force that is manifested in false teachings and drawing people away from the truth and holiness. Jesus came to destroy the works of the enemy. John argues that this is evident in the lives of his followers as they walk as Jesus walked and turn from sin. Paul seems to be arguing here that this will be evident in the world as a whole when Jesus returns because the evil one will be exposed and destroyed once and for all.

My thoughts anyway :).
 

Questor

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I have a few questions from reading the entire thread at one go, but please give the references that support what is being stated.


* Where is it promised by Yeshua that the Tribulation will only be 5 months? Does this refer to the torment of those that take the mark, who are then all killed when Yeshua comes, thus stopping their torment?

* Is everyone who takes the mark going to die when Yeshua returns, whether on the battlefield or not?

* Since the tares are gathered into the fire before the good plants are harvested, does this also relate to those lawless ones being seperated, and killed, such as the sheep and goats reference, while the sheep, human and Incorrupt, walk into the Kingdom?

*Why only 3 1/2 years for the Tribulation period? I'm not complaining, just wondering where it is written.

*Which covenant was confirmed for a seven, and by whom, if it is already done?

* How did anyone restrain the spirit of Anti-Christ, if it was already already working within the early Church? Please remember that letteth, and let translates to restraining in the KJV English. If there is no differentiation between the spirit of Anti-Christ as the worker of lawlessness in the church for the last 1985 years and the 'Dragon'/Lucifer/Satan who remains held by the Restrainer in Heaven until released to embody the final King (or just possess him), it sounds as if the Adversary is able to be in more than one place at one time, which is not possible for any but YHVH.
 

n2thelight

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Questor,I wil try to answer ur questions

1...As for the trib only lasting 5 months,we can get that from the time of the locust,God uses nature in many instances to convey a meaning..

So with that said,what is a locust and how do they operate?

The time "locust" has four stages, as stated in Joel 1. The part of the locust that exists in the swarming stage is five months. That five months staging period is always between May and September; so God is even giving us the season, or time frame when Antichrist will appear. And by that season, we have an hint of when the seventh trumpet will sound, and Jesus Christ will appear. However that instant is known only to the Father.

Will every one die who takes the mark?

All will be changed at Christ return,taking the mark means that you stand a chance of losing your soul,the only ones that will die at that time are the 7000 of satans army,as they have already been judged

Revelation 11:13 "And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."

Within the hour, the earthquake that is going to split the mount of Olives will take place. A way, or path will be made for Christ's children to make it back to Him.

Why would God kill 7000 men at this moment? Those are the angels of Satan will die at this time, all of them. They are the men that God will kill. Satan's time for his story telling is over, and all those fallen angels helping him will be destroyed. ..

Men will seek death and not find it because of the change from flesh to spirit,and only God can kill the soul...It's only at that time(Christ return)will those who seek death will realize that they have been in bed with satan,ie,deceived....

The tares again are those who stand a chance to die the 2nd death,which is the death of the soul,again ALLwill be changed at the 7th trump,the most important thing after that is the condition of the soul,being mortal or immortal...

The death spoken of is of the soul,noone has that until after the great white throne judgement,and then the lake of fire,that's the 2nd death...

Now the 3 1/2 years of the trib

One must understand that there are two tribes ,one of satan and one of God..

1st half of the Tribulation: This is the first three and one half years (42 months) that the first beast is in power upon the earth. This time was not shortened by Christ in Mat 24:22.

2nd half of the Tribulation: This is the second half of the original seven years Tribulation, Christ stated that God shortened this time in Mat 24:22. it is differentiated from the first 42 months in that this time is referred to, not as 42 months, nor 1260 days, nor as 3½ years (which times all refer to the, but only as: "Time, times, and half." (1 + 2 + ½ = 3½ - but 3½ of what? It is not stated). In Rev 9:10-11 we have some indication that the shortened time was to be five literal months. It is not altogether clear whether this five months is added to the 42 months of the first half of the Tribulation, thus making the entire Tribulation now to be 53 months after Christ shortened Daniel's prophecy, or, if it runs concurrent with the last five months of the 42 months of the first beast, so that after the 48th month the 'beasts' operate together, with both their terminus (end) at 42 months

Daniel 9:24 "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy People and upon thy holy city, to finesh the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

There are six things that will come to pass before the transgression is completed upon Jerusalem. Then we will see our Lord Jesus Christ coming back to set up His kingdom upon the earth, and the transgressions will be no more.
Do you see sin around today? Of course; What these things are referring to is the first day of the millennium age. this is looking forward to when the Antichrist has come to earth, and has been cast into the pit.

It is a time when our Lord Jesus Christ is anointed in the most holy place in Jerusalem, showing the world that Jesus Christ is the only True Christ. The next three verses lets us know there is a difference between the true Christ and the false Christ.

Daniel 9:25 "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again and the wall, even in troublous times."

There are four times in history that the starting time of this seventy week period of prophecy could have started. This is what has made this starting date so controversial. During the time of Jewish captivity, four different commandments were issued, for the return to Jerusalem. These were:

First, was the command of Cyrus to return to rebuild the temple as seen in II Chronicles 36:22-23 and Ezra 1. the date of this command was given in 539 B.C.

Second, was the command by Darius to advance the construction of the temple, as we see in Ezra 6:1. This command was given in 518 B.C. or in 519 B.C.

Third, was the command of Artaxerxes to Ezra to purify the temple and reestablish the sacrifices and ordinances. This command is found in Ezra 4:17, and the command was given in 457 B.C.

Fourth, the command of Artaxerxes to Nehemiah to return to Jerusalem, to rebuild the city streets and walls, to make the city safe from the raids and plundering of the neighboring nations. We read of this in Nehemiah 2:1-9, and this puts this command in 444 B.C.

In Daniel 9:25 we read, "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem..." The fourth command in 444 B.C. could be the only starting point for Daniel's seventy week prophecy. All three of the other commands were not relating to the city of Jerusalem, but to the building, finishing, and purification of the temple.

At the conclusion of the seventy weeks of years, Daniel saw in the vision that certain things would happen. Look ar Daniel 9:24, "... to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy and to anoint the most Holy."
We know that each of these things above still exist and will exist until the end of the tribulation period. That time of testing for all Israel, and destruction for the rest of the world.

It is an historical fact that the time to rebuild the streets and walls of Jerusalem was 49 years, exactly as Daniel prophesied in Daniel 9:25. "...from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince (Jesus Christ recognized as the Messiah), shall be seven weeks, three score and two weeks."
The first seven weeks, then sixty-two more weeks of years were given in the vision of Daniel for the time of the Messiah. This then leaves us one week shy of the total seventy weeks prophesied by Daniel, for the Messiah to come and physically rule over Israel.
444 B.C. Jerusalem Rebuilt Messiah Messiah

7 weeks 62 weeks Gap 1 week
49 years 434 years time of Millennium age
Gentiles

there are three separate periods, with a gap between the second period of of 434 years, and the final period of seven years. This gap in the seventy years of weeks prophecy period is what the Apostle Paul calls the time of the Gentiles. In Romans 11:17-24 Paul talked about the time when Gentiles, the wild olive branch, will be grafted onto the good olive tree, the trunk of Abraham. This grafting period, or the gap, is what we now call "the Church age". The time from the resurrection of Jesus Christ, the head of the Church, to the start of the last seven week period, then is the time of grace, and peace that is offered to all.
Grace is the gift of total forgiveness by God, by simply accepting by faith the price that Jesus Christ's death on the cross, and his resurrection, paid for. For this God offers "peace", and whatever sins were ever committed, are blotted out and covered by the blood of Christ. This is spelled out in John 3:16.

When we consider the time span from 444 B.C to 33 A.D., and deduct for the fact of the one year between 1 B.C. and 1 A.D., we have a total of 476 solar years. That is 173,855 total solar days. The Jewish calendar year has 360 days to the year, and would show 483 years for the same time frame. (360 days X 483 years equals 173,880 Jewish calendar days.)

To be accurate, the actual date of the commandment was March 5th of our calendar year of 444 B.C. When we compute the solar calendar days of 173,855 to the starting date, and add the 25 days excess from the Jewish calendar, we find the date to be March 3oth, 33 A.D., the time Jesus rode into Jerusalem with a multitude of people around him; "...cried saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest." Matthew 21:1-12 They were claiming Jesus to be the Messiah.
In Daniel 9:27 continues thousands of years later, following the period we call the gap, or Church age. This is the one week of years God set aside to draw His people, called the Jews, back to himself. "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Halfway into the period, three and a half years, the Antichrist reveals his true colors, and Satan then turns on the Jews. He stops sacrifices and oblations, and brings the abomination to the temple. Then hatred, wrath and killing will be poured out on the nation of Israel. We will discuss each of these points later, as we look at various biblical passages in both the Old and New Testaments.
The thing that makes these four verses, Daniel 9:24-27 so important to Christians, and Bible prophecy, is that it identifies the time of the age of Christ's church on earth. The two important things to remember here is that the sacrifices and the oblation will cease, this is the communion, and the Passover feast offerings, and that is because the entire world, including Christians, will believe that Christ has returned to earth. They will believe that the Antichrist is the Messiah.

The second thins is that abomination that is to take place in Jerusalem, is when the Antichrist, Satan, shall stand in the temple and claim himself to be the true Christ.

Daniel 9:26 "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

The emperor of Rome took sides with the Syrians, against the Jews, and Titus Vespian moved his huge Roman army against all Judea, to totally destroy the city, and as Jesus prophesied, dismantled the entire temple. The Jews that escaped with their lives were scattered throughout the countries of the world.

Daniel 9:27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

In the translation, "the desolate", it is a person, and should be translated "desolator". That desolator is the Antichrist. and is Satan himself. It is not a king in Europe, or the middle east, for Satan is the "star" that fell to the earth in Revelation 9:1, and he will be given the key, or the authority to the bottomless pit.

When the seventh trump sounds, the seventy weeks of years are over, and you will face the Lord Jesus Christ, either as a happy bride [the church], or in shame for chasing after the Antichrist.


Will show you that spirit of AC later....
 

whitestone

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Polar said:
In 2 Thess 2:6-7 it talks about the restrainer who is holding back evil and lawlessness.I am curious as to what people here think Paul is talking about.I am pressed for time so I will return later to read what is said and to give my personal opinion.Please...keep it simple and only post Bible verses if they actually directly pertain to this specific topic.Again, directly pertain to this specific topic. It is so difficult to wade through some threads here because some people seem to think volume equates quality.Thank you in advance.
(2Pe 3:9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
(Php 1:6) Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
(2Pe 3:7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
(Luk 18:7) And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
(Luk 2:35) (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.
 

JesusIsFaithful

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The Restrainer is the Holy Spirit. stick with the KJV only to get the actual meaning of His words.

There are two events being discussed here in that chapter as the Lord will deal with each of these events in its own time since the falling away from the faith will have the Lord dealing with His House first before He comes back with the pre trib raptured saints to deal with the devil & the world's armies.


Below is talking about the falling away from the faith that the Lord will deal with first as Paul testifies that it was already at work.
2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.....9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This is about all of these movements of the "Spirit" where they address the Holy Spirit in worship, calling for Him to come to be received again after a sign, even by the sign of tongues which comes with no interpretation. Believers are believing every spirit that comes over them as being of God and hey, when a phenomenon occurs, and they invoke that again by calling on the Holy Spirit to come & fall on them, and so that is why they would not believe that it is NOT of God. But it really is not of God.

Paul had to explain this by reminding believers when they had received the Holy Ghost the first time which was at the hearing of the gospel.

2 Thessalonians 2: 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

So the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit that is still in the believers that have fallen away from the faith but He is no longer restraining seducing spirits from coming in because the believers are opening themselves up to receive other spirits, thinking it is the Holy Spirit. That is why there is confusion when tongues comes with no interpretation as well as other confusion manifested by the same rudiment of seeking to receive the Holy Spirit "again". Believers that have fallen away from the faith can still repent by shunning vain & profane babblings and pray normally & get their edification from the written word instead in keeping their eyes on the Son, the Bridegroom, for He shall be coming for the abiding bride of Christ soon. The damnation on those that do not repent is to become a castaway ( 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 & Luke 12:40-49 ) at the pre trib rapture event when God will judge His House first ( 1 Peter 4:17-19 ) because of this falling away from the faith, but these castaways shall be received later on after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonour in His House.( 2 Timothy 2:19-21 ) Proof that they are still His is by reading the next chapter in 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7,14-15 where Paul addresses the wicked that have not faith and that do not follow after the traditions tuaght of us and are disorderly, and yet we are commanded to withdraw from them to admonish them as a brother; not as the enemy, because they are still His but in danger of being left behind to be damned as vessels unto dishonour in His House. So that is what Paul was talking about in regards to the "Restrainer" when the Holy Spirit will not be restraining any more when believers are seduced to chase after spirits in receiving them again after a sign so that they would suffer a srong delusion for believing the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit "again" after a sign of tongues or other sensational signs in the flesh like the "holy laughter" movement or "being slain in the Spirit". Believers need to return to their first love and lean on the Son to chase no more after seducing spirits because the Bridegroom will be coming soon for the abiding bride of Christ. Those caught out in the market place seeking to be filled when the Bridegroom comes, will be left behind.
 

Straightshot

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My comment


The restrainer is the Lord Himself who places restraint upon Satan's jurisdiction .... when this restraint is temporarily released during the coming tribulation, Satan will be allowed to deploy his beast [Revelation 9:11; 11:7; 12:12; 13;1-4; 17:8-18] who will fully possess the human little horn of Daniel's visions [Daniel 7:7-25; 8:9-25; 9:26-27 [the other prince that shall come]; 11:36-45; 12;7; Micah 5:5-6; 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12]
 

michaelvpardo

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Wormwood said:
“And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.” (Revelation 20:2–3, ESV)
2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 is one of the more obscure passages in scripture, but you seem to be hinting at an Angelic restrainer, which is as reasonable as any other explanation. Chapter 9 has two similar passages with angelic beings releasing others that have been bound and held for a time of destruction and wrath:
1. Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. And to him was given the key to the bottomless pit.
2. And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. And the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. Revelation 9:1-2
and:
13. Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14. saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.''
15. So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind. Revelation 9:13-15
I've thought for some time that the only thing that restrains lawlessness is the law, or more accurately the enforcement of the law, and for this reason we see the "lawless one" as one who is attempting to change law (as we see now in the case of the reversal of laws written by men that were based upon traditional morality.) I hadn't really given much consideration to the order of heaven which rules over men, but the angels are certainly ministers of law as well as of grace. The scripture, however, doesn't give us that much of a look at the heavenly hierarchy or the role that individual angels play in maintaining order upon the earth. This would probably make for a profitable study when considering "end time" events, yet the scarcity of solid scriptural evidence leaves us in the realm of speculation and conjecture. All things considered, Angelic restraint does seem the most reasonable interpretation even if we can't pin down with certainty one angelic being as "the restrainer," (though I'm biased toward the Archangel of my namesake.) I find it interesting that Michael the Archangel is used within the law enforcement community as a symbol of law enforcement and probably because of the few verses in scripture in which he is mentioned.
 

michaelvpardo

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Questor said:
I have a few questions from reading the entire thread at one go, but please give the references that support what is being stated.
I don't really have answers to all of your questions, but I'm currently reading the book of Ezekiel in my daily readings, and while it could be argued that the judgments all correspond to the times leading up to 70AD, I believe that all scripture is given to the saints for our edification and in part to avoid the errors of the past. In that book, the Lord says that He will judge between the fat and the lean of His sheep. He rebuked those in Israel who looked to their own needs and ignored the needs of others, those "shepherds" who fed themselves on the best of the flock and didn't feed others, etc.
I believe that these passages apply to what the Apostle Paul referred to as the Israel of God. Jesus gave a parable of His return in the parable of "the ten virgins." All were waiting for the return of the bridegroom, yet five were wise and five were foolish. The division made between the two was that the foolish ones were not "known" by the bridegroom when they came to knock at the door. Some of us would see this "knowledge" as being the knowledge of intimate relationship with our Savior, having received Him by faith and through the covenant of His blood. This definition tends to narrow the definition of the Church, but doesn't necessarily exclude that portion of the population that fears God, practices religion, but hasn't understood the terms of the covenant and surrendered their will to His. Some evangelicals believe that a remnant of the Jews will survive the period of the tribulation, but in the book of Jeremiah we find God's promises to restore a remnant of some of the nations during the "later days" or "Acharit-hayamim," and since they are not in a glorified state they have not been a part of Christ's church (see Jeremiah chapter 49 as one such example.) In Jesus' parable, the foolish virgins are not necessarily going to damnation but are left "outside of the camp" so to speak, or to fend for themselves in what was referred to as "the outer darkness." Prior to Christ's return we see salvation largely as looking forward to that return in faith, but how would salvation be understood or given during Christ's millennial reign, when all will be able to see Him? We aren't given the answer to this in scripture, but clearly the standard of faith will have a different measuring rod and perhaps that's where the everlasting gospel comes in, but this can only remain conjecture until Christ is revealed in glory.
 

Saint

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Deuteronomy 32:8 when properly translated tell a story that most translations do not and the church does not properly understand.

God the Father divided the nations between 70 angels of the Heavenly Court.

When the Most High divided the nations, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the nations according to the number of the angels of God. And his people Jacob became the portion of the Lord, Israel was the line of his inheritance.
(Deu 32:8-9 Brenton)

When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. But the LORD's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage.
(Deu 32:8-9 ESV)

When the Most High assigned lands to the nations, when He divided up the human race, He established the boundaries of the peoples according to the number in His heavenly court. "For the people of Israel belong to the LORD; Jacob is His special possession.
(Deu 32:8-9 NLT)

DEUTERONOMY 32:8 When the Most High made allotment of the world unto the nations which proceeded from the sons of Noach, in the separation of the writings and languages of the children of men at the time of the division, He cast the lot among the seventy angels, the princes of the nations with whom is the revelation to oversee the city, even at that time He established the limits of the nations according to the sum of the number of the seventy souls of Israel who went down into Mizraim [Egypt]. (Targum Pseudo-Jonathan, translated by J.W. Etheridge)

These are the same sons of God spoken of in Job…

JOB 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. 7 And the LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" So Satan answered the LORD and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it." (NKJV)

In Psalms 82 God tells these princes of their failure in ruling…

A Psalm of Asaph. God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment: "How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? Selah Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute. Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked." They have neither knowledge nor understanding, they walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken. I said, "You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you; nevertheless, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince." Arise, O God, judge the earth; for you shall inherit all the nations!
(Psa 82:1-8 ESV)

Three of these princes are spoken of in Daniel 10…

The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia,
(Dan 10:13 ESV)

Then he said, "Do you know why I have come to you? But now I will return to fight against the prince of Persia; and when I go out, behold, the prince of Greece will come. But I will tell you what is inscribed in the book of truth: there is none who contends by my side against these except Michael, your prince.
(Dan 10:20-21 ESV)

So you are correct Michael V Pardo there is a heavenly hierarchy which rules over the nations of this earth and therein lays one of the great sources of evil in the world today.
 

michaelvpardo

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Saint said:
Deuteronomy 32:8 when properly translated tell a story that most translations do not and the church does not properly understand.

God the Father divided the nations between 70 angels of the Heavenly Court.

When the Most High divided the nations, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the nations according to the number of the angels of God. And his people Jacob became the portion of the Lord, Israel was the line of his inheritance.
(Deu 32:8-9 Brenton)
I kind of got that on one of my last readings of Deuteronomy. I've been doing my daily readings from the CJB (Complete Jewish Bible) which gives modern renderings according to the translator's understanding, and when I encounter something that I haven't noticed before, I look at the passage in a few other translations (usually NKJ, NAS, or a literal translation.) I'm not sure which passages gave me the idea or impression, but quite a few years ago I believed that scripture was saying that the Lord, in the process of Judgment, was going to bring the Angels down from their exalted position as rulers and make them live or serve upon the Earth in the millennial kingdom, while the Lord's church would take over those vacated positions. This could be complete nonsense as I don't remember what specific verses and passages lead me to such an understanding, though it may have been a gestaltic impression from the bulk of "end times" related scripture. There are certainly a number of individual phrases that I can recall and search for, such as "the stars (or possibly host of heaven) being cast down to the earth" and the passages about bringing low every exalted thing (created thing), but my general understanding is that the Angelic Host, as God's ruling authority, was intended to govern men until the One came who had the right to the inheritance of the nations, just as we see the Law of Moses given to men as a "tutor" until man came to maturity through and in the person of God's Son. I'm inclined to believe that this was in part a reason for the Angelic rebellion, as the Angels were unable to comprehend how mankind with all our sinful, violent, and rebellious nature could ever be fit to replace them. However, trying to make some coherent doctrine from some verses scattered about the scriptures, doesn't seem practical or particularly useful.
When the letter we call 2nd Thessalonians was written, there was an expectation among the congregations of the Church that Christ would be returning very soon (imminently) and they may have received more in depth instruction in these matters from the Apostles than that which remains available in scripture. It also seems that there were other works which we would not accept as part of the Canon that were read and used for doctrinal understanding, such as that quoted from in the letter called "Jude" which mentions the angelic dispute over the body of Moses. With the growing severity of events and conditions upon the planet its natural for us to desire a greater understanding of those things leading to Christ's return and what to expect afterwards, but part of biblical faith is trusting in the promises of God even though specific details may remain a mystery to us until these events unfold. The Lord is trustworthy and the trying or testing of our faith is aimed at revealing that trustworthiness to us. What is more awe inspiring? Ticking off events on a checklist, or knowing the end and watching the manner in which the Lord Sovereignly brings those events to pass? History confirms prophecy, but faith is trusting in the One who reveals future events before they occur: "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
 

Short-timer

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Ec 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,

Jas 4:7 ....... Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

1Jo 4:4 ....... because greater is he (HG) that is in you, than he (Satan) that is in the world.

Mt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, (Comforter/HG) even unto the end of the world. Amen.

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ,

This "Comforter/HG" is the only thing in the world" that is greater than Satan, and "POWER" is on the side of the church because of the Comforter/HG being present in the "BODY OF CHRIST".

The "Marriage" God made for his "Son" and Israel rejected the invitation is the Rapture of the Church and removal of the "Comforter/HG", the "Restrainer" being "Taken out of the way", so that "POWER" can be on the side of the Devil and "HIS SON" .
(Son of perdition/AC) during the Trib.

this is also referred to as the "Fulness of the Gentiles", or end of the church age.

Mt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Mt 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

Mt 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. (taking the gospel to the Gentiles/church)

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,

The AC isn't revealed until "AFTER" the rapture of the church, because the AC wouldn't have power on his side to do the things he does.

Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until........... the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Israel's blindness is due to their rejection of Jesus, without signs and wonders, Jews won't believe and Jesus won't give any, but God will.

The same difference between the way God lead Israel in the OT and Jesus leads the Church, are the same differences between the leadership of the church and the leadership during the trib,

Israel goes back "Under the law and Prophets" leadership of the OT during the Trib, these stopped wih John/Jesus, since then we've been under "GRACE" from the Law,

and just as the law had to stop before Grace could start, Grace will also have to stop before the Law can start again, this is the primary reason for the Rapture.

Just as Scripture say, this "Comforter/HG" is the only thing in the world that is greater than Satan enough to "Restrain him".

Does anyone actually believes the devil/AC is going to have "POWER" over the "BODY OF CHRIST"?????
 

michaelvpardo

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"Does anyone actually believes the devil/AC is going to have "POWER" over the "BODY OF CHRIST"?????"


I'd say that he already does to some extent, but through deception, such as the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine. The catching up of the church is described as happening after the dead in Christ are first raised, otherwise known as the first resurrection, which is identified in the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ as occurring at Christ's return and with His victory over the anti-Christ. The devil has used pre-tribulation rapture doctrine to make some of the saints complacent about their position in Christ and indifferent to a world that He died to save. Some Pastors preach the grace of God as being revealed in delivering His church from the tribulation period, and then they sit back and wonder why their congregations are uninterested in evangelism, discipleship, and the doing of good works (in general). Why do anything good in the world when God is about to whisk us away and destroy all those nasty heathen? Nothing could be farther from the truth and no doctrine displays the immaturity and selfishness of the contemporary church more than it, except those other false doctrines found in the "name it and claim it," "wealth and prosperity" gospel driven churches. They all produce the same sort of end result, a moribund emphasis upon one's self.

1. Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2. not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
3. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
4. who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
You see, in accepting false doctrine, you give yourself over to misunderstanding and corrupted thinking processes so that you are no longer able to even see that which is clearly written in scripture.
 

blessedhope

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The R>is the Ghost, Its very intro about the ghost because we live in the day of grace and the Ghost. In the old tes > they did not live in the R. And after the rapturey they will be like in the old tes . No Grace!Enjoy
 

blessedhope

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Its all about sealing!!. > And I don't want to read about the sealing about the 144 and other sealing because it has nothing to do with the church.. Enjoy