Who Is "the Restrainer" In 2 Thess. 2:6-7

Phoneman777 said:

Yes, the Jews were ultimately responsible for destroying Jerusalem by bringing divine judgment upon themselves.

"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live." (Deuteronomy 30:19 KJV)

Click to expand...

1. No. The Zealots are not the ones who destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple. Trying to say the defeated party who lived there and lost the war, and so suffered the consequence when the victor tore down everything they valued, is political spin. This is how far and how many hoops you have to jump through to maintain a Preterist position that everything was fulfilled in the past.

- Speaking of hoops, you still have quite a few more small ones to fit through:

• What covenant did Jesus make when He was baptised?
• What were the terms?
• What were the dates of its inception, midpoint, and dissolution?
• Where is it written in the Bible that Jesus made a limited-time offer set to expire in just seven years?
• How is it that Jesus, the Lamb, the Servant Messiah, could force through, to have prevailed by might, a limited-time covenant set to dissolve before the first Gentiles, to whom He was also sent - Isa 49:6 - were even first blessed with the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit?

2. Moses foresaw, with the help of the Holy Spirit, that the Israelites would abandon God. They have the "veil of Moses" over their eyes even unto today - they refuse to worship Jesus.

This prophetic utterance by one of the patriarchs of Israel in no way determines that the Jews were the ones to destroy the City and the Sanctuary. Even if this 180 degree spin were true, and the Jews did not tear down their own city and sanctuary - that is a fact of history - even then, the "prince who shall come" comes after A.D. 70.

And war continues until this day - the gap in Daniel 9:26 is ongoing still.

• The end is not yet.
• The anti-Christ has yet to prevail by might a covenant with many.
• The talking image of him has yet to be set up in the rebuilt Jewish Temple.
• None of the desolations which have been decreed, as revealed by Jesus to John in Revelation, have yet to come about.

Phoneman777 said:

According to Protestant Historicism, the "1260", "1290", and "1335" have absolutely nothing to do with the 70 Weeks prophecy, which ended in 34 A.D. EXACTLY 70 weeks after it began with no gap.

Why can't you see that when the Daniel said the time period would be 70 Weeks, he meant just that and no more? You cannot find any other prophecy in Scripture where its numerically assigned date of commencement and duration contains a gap. The prophecy is 70 Weeks long and begins in 457 B.C. which means it ends in 34 A.D. with no gap - the gap came from the mind of Jesuit Francisco Ribera and you are following a doctrine from a system that says the Pope is God on Earth and all who will be saved must be subservient to him. Do you even realize that?

Click to expand...

No, 1260, 1290 and 1335 is specifically about the 70th week. Why do you choose to remain in ignorance, similar to OSAS? All future......

Rev 11:2-3 NIV But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."

Rev 12:6 NIV The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

Rev 12:14 NIV The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach.

Rev 13:5 NIV The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months.

The original covenant was between God and Israel. Jesus confirmed that very covenant for the final 7 years of the 70 week prophecy...70 weeks israel was given to fulfil their part of the covenant...the main responsibility for them was to accept Messiah when He came. They didn't. They were given a final 7 years with their own Messiah fulfilling every Messianic prophecy as a sign to them of His true credentials, and they rejected Him. Even after Calvary, God was gracious and gave them till the end of the full 70 weeks to meet their obligtaions. Some individuals did, but the official Sannhedrin and ruling powers, did not. They gave their final rejection at the stoning of Steven. The speech by Steven was a judicial review of the history of Israel, much like the prophets did of old. Only Steven's speech lacked one thing. A final call to repentance. He knew the writing was on the wall for Israel...Like Jesus said, 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
And the elders, as official representatives of the nation, gave their final rejection after Steven's testimony....51 ¶ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: (the unpardonable sin)...as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
54 ¶ When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man’s feet, whose name was Saul.

It was not long after this that Paul himself confirmed this rejection when he declared...Ac 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God (the covenant confirmed) should first have been spoken to you to fulfil not just the 70 weeks, but also Jesus commandment, go ye first to the house of Israel)...but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
Thus Israel's probation was over. As it stands to this day. No longer a chosen people.

brakelite said:

The original covenant was between God and Israel. Jesus confirmed that very covenant for the final 7 years of the 70 week prophecy...70 weeks israel was given to fulfil their part of the covenant...the main responsibility for them was to accept Messiah when He came. They didn't. They were given a final 7 years with their own Messiah fulfilling every Messianic prophecy as a sign to them of His true credentials, and they rejected Him. Even after Calvary, God was gracious and gave them till the end of the full 70 weeks to meet their obligtaions. Some individuals did, but the official Sannhedrin and ruling powers, did not. They gave their final rejection at the stoning of Steven. The speech by Steven was a judicial review of the history of Israel, much like the prophets did of old. Only Steven's speech lacked one thing. A final call to repentance. He knew the writing was on the wall for Israel...Like Jesus said, 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
And the elders, as official representatives of the nation, gave their final rejection after Steven's testimony....51 ¶ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: (the unpardonable sin)...as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
54 ¶ When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man’s feet, whose name was Saul.

It was not long after this that Paul himself confirmed this rejection when he declared...Ac 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God (the covenant confirmed) should first have been spoken to you to fulfil not just the 70 weeks, but also Jesus commandment, go ye first to the house of Israel)...but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
Thus Israel's probation was over. As it stands to this day. No longer a chosen people.

Click to expand...

The last seven years are future...

Dan 9:27 NIV He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

Dan 12:11 NIV “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.

Matt 24:15 NIV "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand--

2 Thess 2:3-4 NIV Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

brakelite said:

As it stands to this day. No longer a chosen people.

Click to expand...

Replacement theology is false along with your silly post. 1 Cor 3:2 NIV.

Jer 31:35-36 NIV / Psalm 148:1-6 NIV This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar—the Lord Almighty is his name: 36“Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,” declares the Lord, “will Israel ever cease being a nation before me.”

Ez 36:24 NIV “ ‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land.

Ez 37:12-14 NIV Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.’ ”

Ez 37:19-23 NIV say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph—which is in Ephraim’s hand—and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah’s stick. I will make them into a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand.’ 20Hold before their eyes the sticks you have written on 21and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. 23They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.

Ez 38:17-23 NIV “ ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: You are the one I spoke of in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel. At that time they prophesied for years that I would bring you against them. 18This is what will happen in that day: When Gog attacks the land of Israel, my hot anger will be aroused, declares the Sovereign Lord. 19In my zeal and fiery wrath I declare that at that time there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. 20The fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the beasts of the field, every creature that moves along the ground, and all the people on the face of the earth will tremble at my presence. The mountains will be overturned, the cliffs will crumble and every wall will fall to the ground. 21I will summon a sword against Gog on all my mountains, declares the Sovereign Lord. Every man’s sword will be against his brother. 22I will execute judgment on him with plague and bloodshed; I will pour down torrents of rain, hailstones and burning sulfur on him and on his troops and on the many nations with him. 23And so I will show my greatness and my holiness, and I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the Lord.’

Ez 39:25-29 NIV “Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will now restore the fortunes of Jacob and will have compassion on all the people of Israel, and I will be zealous for my holy name. 26They will forget their shame and all the unfaithfulness they showed toward me when they lived in safety in their land with no one to make them afraid. 27When I have brought them back from the nations and have gathered them from the countries of their enemies, I will be proved holy through them in the sight of many nations. 28Then they will know that I am the Lord their God, for though I sent them into exile among the nations, I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind. 29I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the people of Israel, declares the Sovereign Lord.”

Amos 9:14-15 NIV and I will bring my people Israel back from exile. “They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit. 15I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them,”

Micah 2:12-13 NIV “I will surely gather all of you, Jacob; I will surely bring together the remnant of Israel. I will bring them together like sheep in a pen, like a flock in its pasture; the place will throng with people. 13The One who breaks open the way will go up before them; they will break through the gate and go out. Their King will pass through before them, the Lord at their head.”

Zech 13:8-9 NIV In the whole land," declares the LORD, "two-thirds will be struck down and perish; yet one-third will be left in it. 9 This third I will bring into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, 'They are my people,' and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.' "

Rom 11:25-32 NIV I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” 28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

brakelite said:

The original covenant was between God and Israel. Jesus confirmed that very covenant for the final 7 years of the 70 week prophecy...70 weeks israel was given to fulfil their part of the covenant...the main responsibility for them was to accept Messiah when He came. They didn't.

Click to expand...

I think I read something like this on the internet, and you know the internet doesn't make anything up.

Now, please provide direct evidence from the Bible that Jesus "confirmed" either the Abrahamaic or Davidic Covenants.

Now we can point to specific points to each.

The Abrahamaic Covenant is eternal.

Gen 12:1 Now the Lord said to Abram,
" Go forth from your country,
And from your relatives
And from your father's house,
To the land which I will show you;
2 And I will make you a great nation,
And I will bless you,
And make your name great;
And so you shall be a blessing;
3 And I will bless those who bless you,
And the one who curses you I will curse.
And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."

This promise was made to Abraham alone, but extends to all the families of the earth.

A covenant has specific requirements for each party. In this case, God upholds both parts. Theologians speculate that is because Abraham could not uphold the faithfulness, but in other theologians point out that Abraham wasn't bound to anything. Some theologians call this a Grant. The Abrahamaic Covenant resulted from Abram's faith. Later, conditions to a continuation of faithfulness will be added as in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 6 so as to allow Abraham's prodigy to enjoy God's favor. However, God's faithfulness to provide the original covenant is not hinged upon their compliance.

Gen 15:5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, " So shall your descendants be." 6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness. 7 And He said to him, "I am the Lord who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to possess it." 8 He said, "O Lord God, how may I know that I will possess it?" 9 So He said to him, " Bring Me a three year old heifer, and a three year old female goat, and a three year old ram, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon." 10 Then he brought all these to Him and cut them in two, and laid each half opposite the other; but he did not cut the birds. 11 The birds of prey came down upon the carcasses, and Abram drove them away.

12 Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, terror and great darkness fell upon him. 13 God said to Abram, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, where they will be enslaved and oppressed four hundred years. 14 But I will also judge the nation whom they will serve, and afterward they will come out with many possessions. 15 As for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you will be buried at a good old age. 16 Then in the fourth generation they will return here, for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet complete."

17 It came about when the sun had set, that it was very dark, and behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a flaming torch which passed between these pieces. 18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying,
" To your descendants I have given this land,
From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates:
19 the Kenite and the Kenizzite and the Kadmonite 20 and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Rephaim 21 and the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Girgashite and the Jebusite."

That is how a covenant is made and how it is stated in Scripture.

In the Davidic Covenant, David too is promised a future without commensurate action on his part. Again, it is a Divine Grant.

2Sa 7:8 "Now therefore, thus you shall say to My servant David, 'Thus says the Lord of hosts, "I took you from the pasture, from following the sheep, to be ruler over My people Israel. 9 I have been with you wherever you have gone and have cut off all your enemies from before you; and I will make you a great name, like the names of the great men who are on the earth. 10 I will also appoint a place for My people Israel and will plant them, that they may live in their own place and not be disturbed again, nor will the wicked afflict them any more as formerly, 11 even from the day that I commanded judges to be over My people Israel; and I will give you rest from all your enemies. The Lord also declares to you that the Lord will make a house for you. 12 When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be a father to him and he will be a son to Me; when he commits iniquity, I will correct him with the rod of men and the strokes of the sons of men, 15 but My lovingkindness shall not depart from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 Your house and your kingdom shall endure before Me forever; your throne shall be established forever."'" 17 In accordance with all these words and all this vision, so Nathan spoke to David.

Now here is where Jesus is baptized:

Mat 3:13 Then Jesus *arrived from Galilee at the Jordan coming to John, to be baptized by him. 14 But John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?" 15 But Jesus answering said to him, "Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he *permitted Him. 16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, 17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well- pleased."

There is no promise here. What is being fulfilled here is righteousness. To this day, we also baptize.

After His Temptation (test), Jesus begins His Ministry:

Mat 4:12 Now when Jesus heard that John had been taken into custody, He withdrew into Galilee; 13 and leaving Nazareth, He came and settled in Capernaum, which is by the sea, in the region of Zebulun and Naphtali. 14 This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet:
15 "The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali,
BY the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles —
16 "The people who were sitting in darkness saw A great Light,
And those who were sitting in the land and shadow of death,
Upon them A Light dawned."
17 From that time Jesus began to preach and say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

There is no promise there. There is only a call back to God

There is no reference in either scene at the start of Jesus' Ministry to many children - as in the Abrahamaic Covenant; nor is there any the extension of the Kingdom - as per the Davidic Covenant. Jesus did not "confirm" either Covenant!

The New Covenant is only made at the Last Supper:

Mt 26:26 While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is My body." 27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; 28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

It is as John states in his Gospel:

John 1:9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Again, while Jesus came only to the tribes of Israel, He did not follow along either the Abrahamaic nor Davidic Covenant promises. He fulfilled (not confirmed) the Servant Messiah passages. But because He did not fulfill (at that time) the Messiah King passages - the Jews rejected Him as the Christ (Messiah). This is the problem I run into today preaching Christ Jesus to Jews: they point out the 2nd Advent Messiah King promises Jesus did not (yet) fulfill and they continue to reject Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

Heb 9:15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Grace is extended by Faith.
There are three ways that a Christian can say that we are saved:

1. When Jesus died for us on the Cross.
2. When we first come to believe.
3. When Jesus lifts us up on that last day.

The forgiveness of sin is based on confession and repentance.
The Covenant Jesus made was sealed with His Blood - thus in the Lamb's Blood, we wash our robes clean. We are the Great Multitude of Rev 7:14.

Another problem with saying Jesus "confirmed" a Covenant in Daniel 9:27 is that that is not what 'gabar' means in Hebrew.

310 נכד (gābar) prevail, be mighty, have strength, be great. (ASV and RSV similar.)

Derivatives
310a (geber) man.
310b (gibbôr) mighty man.
310c (ge bûrâ) might.
310d (ge bîrâ) lady, queen (masc. lord, Gen 27:29, 37).
310e (ge beret) lady, queen.

This root and its derivatives occur 328 times in the OT, of which the verb account for but 26. The cognate is well attested in the semitic languages, appearing in Akkadian, Arabic, Aramaic, Phoenician, and Moabite. At present, it is only known in a proper noun in Ugaritic. In general the same meaning is shared throughout. In Arabic, the basic meaning of the root is “to rise, raise, restore,” with the idea of being strong, or prevailing over coming only in the only in the derived stems. That the Hebrew may share a similar range of meaning is seen in the Hithpael where the idea is not so much to make oneself prevail over God, as it is to raise oneself up in arrogance and stand in his face (Job 15:25; 36:9; Isa 42:13). The Hebrew root is commonly associated with warfare and has to do with the strength and vitality of the successful warrior. -- Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament.

Most of the time in Scripture, gabar is used as an adjective. Then it means to be mighty, to have strength, to be great.
As a verb, gabar is used sparingly. When it used as a verb - it means: to prevail.

In Daniel 9:27, gabar is a verb; not an adjective.

The problem with the Geneva and King James Bibles is that they translate gabar giving it the same meaning as is used when it is an adjective: to be strong (or firm). This sets up a condition whereby people mistakenly look to Jesus (first, because of their faith) to being the "he" in the third person conjugation of this Hebrew verb. (That is where the "he" comes from in translation. It is not stated explicitly as a separate word as in the English, but comes with the actual verb as it does also in Greek and Latin).

Now there is a Hebrew word that means "confirm": Strongs' H539. aman
aman: to confirm, support
Original Word: אָמַן

Gabriel did not use that word for the action taking place in Daniel 9:27.

It is important to go back to the original language when you want to make something of a single word. In this case, what we get from the translators, who are not necessarily theologians, follows the pattern laid down in error so long ago that it is almost wholly accepted as a correct translation.

Man's inertia to a set pattern should not be a cause for serious students to misconstrue the action taking place in this crucial verse in eschatology.

He prevailed a covenant with many for one 'seven'...

Marcus O'Reillius said:

1. No. The Zealots are not the ones who destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple. Trying to say the defeated party who lived there and lost the war, and so suffered the consequence when the victor tore down everything they valued, is political spin. This is how far and how many hoops you have to jump through to maintain a Preterist position that everything was fulfilled in the past.

- Speaking of hoops, you still have quite a few more small ones to fit through:

• What covenant did Jesus make when He was baptised?
• What were the terms?
• What were the dates of its inception, midpoint, and dissolution?
• Where is it written in the Bible that Jesus made a limited-time offer set to expire in just seven years?
• How is it that Jesus, the Lamb, the Servant Messiah, could force through, to have prevailed by might, a limited-time covenant set to dissolve before the first Gentiles, to whom He was also sent - Isa 49:6 - were even first blessed with the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit?

2. Moses foresaw, with the help of the Holy Spirit, that the Israelites would abandon God. They have the "veil of Moses" over their eyes even unto today - they refuse to worship Jesus.

This prophetic utterance by one of the patriarchs of Israel in no way determines that the Jews were the ones to destroy the City and the Sanctuary. Even if this 180 degree spin were true, and the Jews did not tear down their own city and sanctuary - that is a fact of history - even then, the "prince who shall come" comes after A.D. 70.

And war continues until this day - the gap in Daniel 9:26 is ongoing still.

• The end is not yet.
• The anti-Christ has yet to prevail by might a covenant with many.
• The talking image of him has yet to be set up in the rebuilt Jewish Temple.
• None of the desolations which have been decreed, as revealed by Jesus to John in Revelation, have yet to come about.

Click to expand...

Historicism is not Preterism, friend. Preterism and Futurism came from the Jesuits and is what you are expounding. A casual glance at church history will show you that Protestant Historicists pointed the finger of accusation at the Papacy as the prophesied Antichrist which was followed only decades later by Jesuit Preterism and Jesuit Futurism. It's a matter of history. Revisionist Historians try to deny history but they only succeed where there is a willingness to ignore the facts.

Christ was baptized at the completion of the 69th week and crucified after the 69th week, which means it was 3 1/2 years into the 70th when it happened, just like Daniel says. No gap.

.

Marcus O'Reillius said:

Another problem with saying Jesus "confirmed" a Covenant in Daniel 9:27 is that that is not what 'gabar' means in Hebrew.

310 נכד (gābar) prevail, be mighty, have strength, be great. (ASV and RSV similar.)

Derivatives
310a (geber) man.
310b (gibbôr) mighty man.
310c (ge bûrâ) might.
310d (ge bîrâ) lady, queen (masc. lord, Gen 27:29, 37).
310e (ge beret) lady, queen.

This root and its derivatives occur 328 times in the OT, of which the verb account for but 26. The cognate is well attested in the semitic languages, appearing in Akkadian, Arabic, Aramaic, Phoenician, and Moabite. At present, it is only known in a proper noun in Ugaritic. In general the same meaning is shared throughout. In Arabic, the basic meaning of the root is “to rise, raise, restore,” with the idea of being strong, or prevailing over coming only in the only in the derived stems. That the Hebrew may share a similar range of meaning is seen in the Hithpael where the idea is not so much to make oneself prevail over God, as it is to raise oneself up in arrogance and stand in his face (Job 15:25; 36:9; Isa 42:13). The Hebrew root is commonly associated with warfare and has to do with the strength and vitality of the successful warrior. -- Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament.

Most of the time in Scripture, gabar is used as an adjective. Then it means to be mighty, to have strength, to be great.
As a verb, gabar is used sparingly. When it used as a verb - it means: to prevail.

In Daniel 9:27, gabar is a verb; not an adjective.

The problem with the Geneva and King James Bibles is that they translate gabar giving it the same meaning as is used when it is an adjective: to be strong (or firm). This sets up a condition whereby people mistakenly look to Jesus (first, because of their faith) to being the "he" in the third person conjugation of this Hebrew verb. (That is where the "he" comes from in translation. It is not stated explicitly as a separate word as in the English, but comes with the actual verb as it does also in Greek and Latin).

Now there is a Hebrew word that means "confirm": Strongs' H539. aman
aman: to confirm, support
Original Word: אָמַן

Gabriel did not use that word for the action taking place in Daniel 9:27.

It is important to go back to the original language when you want to make something of a single word. In this case, what we get from the translators, who are not necessarily theologians, follows the pattern laid down in error so long ago that it is almost wholly accepted as a correct translation.

Man's inertia to a set pattern should not be a cause for serious students to misconstrue the action taking place in this crucial verse in eschatology.

He prevailed a covenant with many for one 'seven'...

Click to expand...

Friend, you seem to think that what Jesus did had nothing to do with "prevail". But, that is exactly what Jesus did to the Covenant - He made it prevail. It prevailed over the Old Covenant...it prevailed over any concern that it would go unfulfilled...it prevailed over the many centuries long efforts by the serpent who new that should it prevail, his head would be crushed by His heel. Will you argue that Jesus cannot make a covenant "prevail" but the Antichrist can?

If you divorce yourself from the Jesuit Futurist idea that some future 7 year covenant will be set up but broken halfway through by the Jesuit Antichrist, and instead accept the Biblical idea that God's salvation provided by the New Covenant of grace is confirmed, or "made to prevail" for 7 years by Jesus Christ and lasts until the last soul enters the kingdom, then it is easy to see that the focus of prophecy is JESUS CHRIST, not Antichrist.

Phoneman777 said:

Christ was baptized at the completion of the 69th week and crucified after the 69th week, which means it was 3 1/2 years into the 70th when it happened, just like Daniel says. No gap.

Click to expand...

Explain post 122 and 124.

It was the blood of Yeshua on the cross that confirmed the Eternal Covenant made between God the Father and the Eternal Son; gabar can mean to prevail or make strong which is exactly what the blood accomplished.

Saint said:

It was the blood of Yeshua on the cross that confirmed the Eternal Covenant made between God the Father and the Eternal Son; gabar can mean to prevail or make strong which is exactly what the blood accomplished.

Click to expand...

Exactly, and I don't see how that "prevail" disqualifies Jesus as the One to Whom the prophecy refers as He Who would "confirm the Covenant with many for one week", the same "many" that He spoke of when He lifted up the cup to His disciples and said, "This is My blood of the New Covenant which is shed for MANY for the remission of sins."

ATP said:

Explain post 122 and 124.

Click to expand...

OK, here's my explanation: You have confused the 70 Weeks prophecy - which began in 457 B.C. and ended in 34 A.D. and applies to Jesus Christ - with the 1260, 1290, and 1335 Days prophecies which began in the 6th century and apply to the Church of Jesus Christ during the time of the Papal Antichrist's assault on God, our High Priest in the Heavenly Sanctuary, His law, His Word, and His faithful who refused to acknowledge the authority of said Antichrist.


P.S.: You still have yet to show me any other prophecy that is said plainly to be "X" number of years long, but is required to be re-calculated as "X + (insert gap here)".

How long did Noah's 120 years prophecy last? 120 years.
How long did Ezekiel's 10 years prophecy last? 10 years.
How long did Israel's 40 years prophecy last? 40 years.
How long did Jeremiah's 70 years prophecy last? 70 years.
How long does every other numeric time prophecy in the Bible last? As long as the stated numeric time.

But we're supposed to insert a 2,000 year gap in the 70 Weeks, right?

Phoneman777 said:

P.S.: You still have yet to show me any other prophecy that is said plainly to be "X" number of years long, but is required to be re-calculated as "X + (insert gap here)".

Click to expand...

I did show you Phone multiple times. You just haven't accepted it yet. Jesus died at the 483rd year. 483-490 is seven years Phone, which is future.

Also Matt 24:15 is future. The Olivet Discourse is future. Matt 24 is titled, "The Destruction of the Temple and Signs of the End Times".

Dan 9:25-26 NIV “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens (49 + 434).’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26After the sixty-two ‘sevens (483 years),’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.

Phoneman777 said:

But we're supposed to insert a 2,000 year gap in the 70 Weeks, right?

Click to expand...

We're not supposed to insert a gap in time between the sixty-two 'seven's and the one 'seven'.
God did.
And Gabriel told that to Daniel.

Dan 9:26 Then after the sixty- two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

After the one 'seven':

• The Messiah will be cut off - no lineage - cutting a deal with the shedding of blood: karat.
• The city and the sanctuary (Jerusalem and the Temple) will be destroyed. A.D. 70 some 40 years after point one (and YOU don't know that Jesus was crucified in A.D. 31).
• Wars continue until the end of the seventy 'sevens' - and the one 'seven's end ends the seventy 'sevens'.

That's Scripture.
Learn it; love it; live with it because it don't change.

NONE OF THE DESOLATIONS FORETOLD IN REVELATION WERE POURED OUT ON ANYONE BY A.D. 34.
- the Temple hadn't even been destroyed by then either...

...and war continues until this very day. Armageddon is yet to happen.

Phoneman777 said:

Historicism is not Preterism, friend.

Click to expand...

Preterism holds that the prophecy of events were fulfilled in the 1st century.

If it walks like a duck, and it talks like a duck, and it floats like a duck, and it flies like a duck: it's duck.

Saint said:

It was the blood of Yeshua on the cross that confirmed the Eternal Covenant made between God the Father and the Eternal Son; gabar can mean to prevail or make strong which is exactly what the blood accomplished.

Click to expand...

Jesus did not prevail by might the New Covenant. That is what gabar would mean if you assign Jesus to Daniel 9:27.
Now the Lord, the Commander of God's Army, whose strong right arm can save us; did not foil the attempt to execute Himself in the most barbaric, humiliating way possible. He did not impose His Will by force!
No! Jesus did the opposite of gabar! He submitted to the Cross!
No, as Jesus said to Peter, 'Get behind me Satan,' at the very thought of resisting God's Plan for Salvation.

So if the New Covenant was only made at the Last Supper, and the blood oath was made on the cross sealing the deal, and that is what cut off (karat) in Daniel 9:26 can also mean - to cut a deal -

• Where does that leave you for the events of the one 'seven'?
• Where is the midpoint abomination in the Holy Place that Jesus told us about?
• Where are the desolations poured out on the desolator?

You see, when you make Jesus the actor of gabar, the remaining narrative God gives us through Gabriel to Daniel doesn't fit the historical events of the first century.

The third person singular conjugation of gabar reverts back to the last person mentioned as a rule in grammar.
That person is the "prince who will come".
That person is also defined by those who destroy the city and the sanctuary.

Those were the Romans.
The "prince who will come", the anti-Christ, is Roman.
He forces through, or prevails by might a limited-time covenant which ultimately sees God's desolations poured out on to himself.
And lest I need to remind you, the Romans are the last kingdom of man which is struck down by Jesus to establish the Millennium Sabbath of His Reign here on earth - as it is in Heaven.

Phoneman777 said:

Friend, you seem to think that what Jesus did had nothing to do with "prevail". But, that is exactly what Jesus did to the Covenant - He made it prevail. It prevailed over the Old Covenant...it prevailed over any concern that it would go unfulfilled...it prevailed over the many centuries long efforts by the serpent who new that should it prevail, his head would be crushed by His heel. Will you argue that Jesus cannot make a covenant "prevail" but the Antichrist can?

Click to expand...

First of all, I'm not going to reply to some dogmatic, conspiracy-laden, internet hype on Jesuits, the Pope, Scofield, Darby, or sins of Westcott and Hort.
To me, these are minor side issues that have nothing to do with what we can read for ourselves in the Bible.
I do not rely upon them for my thinking and never heard of them prior to debating online what I read in the Bible in my youth.

Right: I don't think gabar typifies anything that Jesus did by humbly submitting to a humilating, painful execution - which, by the way, did not kill Him!

I look at how you have to twist words like paper streamers in the wind to make gabar apply.

So let's entertain your argument.

• First you said that Jesus "confirmed" a covenant for only seven years at the start of His Ministry.
• You then pointed to His Crucifixion as the midpoint abomination.

When you could not show - from Scripture - when Jesus made a proper covenant at the start of His Ministry,
When you could not show - from Scripture - that this was a continuation of the promise for Abraham's prodigy,
When you could not show - from Scripture - that this was a continuation of the promise made to David for the Kingdom,
-- You changed your tune to what is in Scripture and now you say that the Covenant was made at the end of Jesus' Ministry. That is at least correct.

However!
If this limited-time offer available only to the Jews begins at the end of Jesus' Ministry (I guess we're left out!)

Show us - from Scripture - where, when, and what the midpoint abomination is
Show us - from Scripture - where, when, and how God's desolations, which He has decreed, are poured out on the desolator.

You see, when you start from a Preterist position that it all happened in the first century - it become awfully hard to prove, because the historical facts don't fit the prophecies.

ATP said:

I did show you Phone multiple times. You just haven't accepted it yet. Jesus died at the 483rd year. 483-490 is seven years Phone, which is future.

Also Matt 24:15 is future. The Olivet Discourse is future. Matt 24 is titled, "The Destruction of the Temple and Signs of the End Times".

Dan 9:25-26 NIV “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens (49 + 434).’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26After the sixty-two ‘sevens (483 years),’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.

Click to expand...

ATP, you must understand that the 483rd year is part of the 69 weeks. Jesus is said to have died AFTER the 69 weeks, which CANNOT be during the 483rd years. Understand?

Also, the prophecy said the 483rd year brings us to "Messiah the Prince", which is not His death, but His baptism because it says He was about 30 years old when He began His ministry and that is 27 A.D., 483 years after the beginning of the prophecy.

Marcus O'Reillius said:

We're not supposed to insert a gap in time between the sixty-two 'seven's and the one 'seven'.
God did.
And Gabriel told that to Daniel.

Dan 9:26 Then after the sixty- two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

After the one 'seven':

• The Messiah will be cut off - no lineage - cutting a deal with the shedding of blood: karat.
• The city and the sanctuary (Jerusalem and the Temple) will be destroyed. A.D. 70 some 40 years after point one (and YOU don't know that Jesus was crucified in A.D. 31).
• Wars continue until the end of the seventy 'sevens' - and the one 'seven's end ends the seventy 'sevens'.

That's Scripture.
Learn it; love it; live with it because it don't change.

NONE OF THE DESOLATIONS FORETOLD IN REVELATION WERE POURED OUT ON ANYONE BY A.D. 34.
- the Temple hadn't even been destroyed by then either...

...and war continues until this very day. Armageddon is yet to happen.

Click to expand...

God inserted no such gap into this or any other prophecy, Jesuits and their apologists do that. Where can we find just one Biblical example of a prophecy assigned to commence and expire over a set number of numeric years which requires the insertion of a gap?

Where does the prophecy say that the destruction must come before the end of the 70th Week, as you insist? It doesn't. It just says "after" the 69th Week.

Jesus didn't "cut a deal" with anyone at His death. He merely made the previously promised New Covenant of Grace "prevail" and so it does to this day.