Regeneration before or after saving faith

Anthony D'Arienzo said:

Correct....men are fully responsible before God.
The fall has bound man in sin and death.
Jesus seeks and saves His sheep.
The Spirit effectually draws them to Jesus, making them willing where before they resisted.
No contradictions...just biblical salvation effected by the trinity.

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How are they responsible?
How is a person responsible being born the way they were, given zero power to effect it in anyway?
How is a person responsible for not seeking Christ when it's predetermined that not even an options for them?
How is a person created in chains to be responsible for being in chains?

It is quite apparent that what John taught in John 1:12-13 is the consistent doctrine that he teaches again in 1 John 5:1, that is, that we believe and receive, not by our own wills, blood, "not of man" (which is so obviously plain) but believe because we "were born of God" 1 John 5:1, and, that it is "but of God" John 1:12-13.

Soli Deo Gloria!

Anthony D'Arienzo said:

Correct....men are fully responsible before God.
The fall has bound man in sin and death.
Jesus seeks and saves His sheep.
The Spirit effectually draws them to Jesus, making them willing where before they resisted.
No contradictions...just biblical salvation effected by the trinity.

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The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

1 John 2:2
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Timothy 2:4
Who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


"7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye. shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh. findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."

"13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

Where is this supposed inability? If Jesus tells you to ask, you are capable of asking... If he tells you to enter, you're capable of entering.

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing."

Well, why didn't he make them willing then? why was he mourning over people he could have just irresistibly caused to come to him?
You make God out to be schizophrenic.

Jane_Doe22 said:

With all possible respect, I find the scriptures (including those you cite) to be teaching a different view.

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Anyone notice it's "with all possible respect" not "with all due respect"? Just an observation.

Jane_Doe22 said:

I believe I have sovereignty: hence I am responsible for my sins.

However, if I do not have sovereignty (such as believed in Calvinism), then I would not at all be responsible for any of my actions: good or bad. I would just be a falling rock. Hence my question.

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It's not surprising that @Eternally Grateful would give a like to the above heresy. Obviously he either believes he too has sovereignty as a human, or he agrees she's correct that she does. By definition "Sovereignty" is "to possess supreme power and authority."

Perhaps EG will convert to her Mormonism and created Christ as well?

The other thing they share in common is that they were saved because they did something (performed a work) to make themselves (performed a work) savable by an act of their free will (free will is code for performed a work), so God saw these wonderful people would do this and rewarded them for it! Congrats you two, you did it!

Renniks,
Okay...This is a valid attempt....Here is your two questions; and your conclusion

1] Well, why didn't he make them willing then?

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Answer to 2 Pet3:9...Everyone spoken of in This passage is going to be saved. That is a statement of fact. God is not willing that any of the Elect perish, not one.....so if you notice the context is God is longsuffering with the wicked until the last of the elect are saved;
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

So your answer is the text explains it.....God is not willing to lose any of His people.
Read the whole chapter...there is a contrast of the scoffers and the saved.

Do you see this is quite direct and a clear understanding of this passage?

2]why was he mourning over people he could have just irresistibly caused to come to him?

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God has never intended to save everyone. The passage was addressing the leaders who turned people away from hearing the truth. He wept over the fact that they will perish, but perish they will.

3]You make God out to be schizophrenic

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Not at all...if anything your view does that.

Anthony D'Arienzo said:

Answer to 2 Pet3:9...Everyone spoken of in This passage is going to be saved. That is a statement of fact. God is not willing that any of the Elect perish, not one.....so if you notice the context is God is longsuffering with the wicked until the last os the elect are saved;
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

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That's not what it says. It doesn't irreversibly separate us into two categories of people. You did that, not scripture. It says not willing any should perish, no categories. And it doesn't promise the saved can't fall away and become the wicked.
In fact we are warned about falling.

17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawsless and fall from your secure position.

"they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water."

Not a hint of God selecting some for salvation and some for damnation. They do this deliberately, not God.

Anthony D'Arienzo said:

God has never intended to save everyone. The passage was addressing the leaders who turned people away from hearing the truth. He wept over the fact that they will perish, but perish they will.

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That's a non answer. He's weeping over people that he irresistibly chose for damnation? Yeah, right, get real.
If your view is correct, he guided and governed thier rebellion, that he is now mourning. Like I said... schizophrenic

Renniks,

That's not what it says. It doesn't irreversibly separate us into two categories of people. You did that, not scripture.

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That is exactly what it says. If I show you will you admit it and publically repent of your false ideas on the passage?

If you agree I will take the time to show you. This is exactly what is at issue. We look at the same passage although the version you are quoting is not solid. You have the passage 100% wrong as you have posted it. I will show you if you want to see....let me know.

Renniks,

That's a non answer. He's weeping over people that he irresistibly chose for damnation?

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Who suggests people are "irresistably chosen" for damnation.
When I say you do not know what you are talking about, this again is a prime example.
What are you talking about?
The term used is irresitable grace...not irresistable damnation; from the 1689 confession of faith

Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )
2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )

I feel like my questions aren’t goig to get answered.

Jane_Doe22 said:

I feel like my questions aren’t goig to get answered.

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You mean these? I'll answer them to the best of my ability.

How

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are they responsible?

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If man was truly fully responsible for its own condition, God wouldn't have determined the need for an atonement to start with. If he really wanted to, he could have skipped the atonement and jumped right into the great white throne judgement. Without the atonement though, there would have been far reaching very negative implications most Christians never even thought of.

How

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is a person responsible being born the way they were, given zero power to effect it in anyway?

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The only way I can answer this question is with how Paul answered it in Romans 1. He says that the evidence of God has always been evident within the creation. Despite this evidence, when they knew God, they worshiped him not as God. This however doesn't make the creation responsible for being created the way they were. Such silliness is only heard from the mind of a Calvinist.

How

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is a person responsible for not seeking Christ when it's predetermined that not even an options for them?

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As far as how I understand how one comes to be saved, you only become responsible for not seeking Jesus after you heard the gospel, not before. Jesus wouldn't have bothered telling his disciples to spread the good word about him to the Jews, and then later to the gentile to start with.

How

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is a person created in chains to be responsible for being in chains?

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This kind of sounds more like question #2 so.

Dcopymope said:

You mean these? I'll answer them to the best of my ability.



If man was truly fully responsible for its own condition, God wouldn't have determined the need for an atonement to start with. If he really wanted to, he could have skipped the atonement and jumped right into the great white throne judgement. Without the atonement though, there would have been far reaching very negative implications most Christians never even thought of.



The only way I can answer this question is with how Paul answered it in Romans 1. He says that the evidence of God has always been evident within the creation. Despite this evidence, when they knew God, they worshiped him not as God. This however doesn't make the creation responsible for being created the way they were. Such silliness is only heard from the mind of a Calvinist.



As far as how I understand how one comes to be saved, you only become responsible for not seeking Jesus after you heard the gospel, not before. Jesus wouldn't have bothered telling his disciples to spread the good word about him to the Jews, and then later to the gentile to start with.



This kind of sounds more like question #2 so.

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Those seem to be fairly Armenian answers.

Jane_Doe22 said:

Those seem to be fairly Armenian answers.

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I have no idea what Armenians believe. I just believe the Bible, let it speak for itself. If man is truly responsible, then Jesus Christ died for nothing. God could have just skipped all that jazz about a savior, got to judging, and moved on into the new earth to come with those found in the book of life. He didn't, because he knew better. A reset in of itself would not have solved the issue of the knowledge of sin, and I go into why in my thread below. This all comes down to understanding the nature of free will from Gods perspective.

From his perspective, its not our ability to make choices that is the problem, its our ability to gain the knowledge of sin. If there is no knowledge of sin, then sin cannot arise with the heart of man to start with where it all starts. This is what Jesus came to address in a nutshell. Our ability to conceptualize sin in our hearts was the real problem, because once its conceptualized, its only a matter of time before it becomes a reality. How we could possibly be responsible for this is beyond me.

(James 1:13-15) "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: {14} But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. {15} Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."

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Link: Why the sacrifice had to occur

I think that most people who say they are atheists and agnostics say this because they want to live their lives the way it seems right for them. They don't want to be morally responsible to anyone else, especially God. So they take an atheistic or agnostic stance because it helps them avoid being morally responsible for the way they live and what they do.

So, anything goes, they can be a lying, thieving, blaspheming, fornicating adulterer at heart, and not have to account for what they do, because they believe that when they fall off the perch and the lights go out that's it. Oblivion and nothing more.

But what if there is an afterlife, and there is a judgment where we all have to stand before God and answer for how we live and what we do? What would we do if we are found guilty as charged and have to face a sort of an eternal prison without parole? I think that every person, even though they are atheist or agnostic, know it deep down in their conscience that there could be something out there in eternity.

Ask an atheist - it is right to rape three women and cut their throats? Would he think that is right? What if it was his sister who was one of those women? How would he feel about that? I know that he would exclaim, "That is so wrong!" But what makes it wrong? There is no standard of morality and no judgment so who cares?

But the reality is that something within him cries out about the wrongness of such actions, because he has a conscience, whether he listens to it or not. This conscience is God's warning device, like a smoke alarm, and it goes off when something is wrong. This means if there is a judgment, God will tell the atheist, "Why did you not listen to your own conscience?" and he will have no answer. He will have to acknowledge that he is guilty and that all he can expect is eternity in "prison" which Christians call hell, without the possibility of parole.

Eternally Grateful,

Or maybe your belief is just nonsensical

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really...lets take a look...I quoted two verses...that is nonsensical to you?
psalm14;
2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
How did the Apostle Paul understand it in Romans3;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

It clearly says no one seeks God.

you complain about people mocking you, yet here you are mocking him

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I do not care if he mocks, because I understand what condition he is in.

he asks a questions, you inevitable answer is he just does not understand the Bible
that is not a biblical answer at all, and does not answer his question

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He denied this is true...God said it, there is no denial of it.

in reality, people say this for one reason. They can not answer the question and they know it, so they have to try to take the focus of self and place the onus or focus back on the other,

pits a sad tactic, but easily seen, and it happens far to often.

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His posts are easily answered.

Jane_Doe22,

How are they responsible?

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19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

How is a person responsible being born the way they were, given zero power to effect it in anyway?

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12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

How is a person responsible for not seeking Christ when it's predetermined that not even an options for them?

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Where does the bible say what you posted? Here is what I see in scripture;
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

How is a person created in chains to be responsible for being in chains?

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Sinners create sinners.... God warned Adam. Adam did not listen= death passing upon all men, all sinned at that one point in time. This is reality. It is not up for philosophical debate.

Dcopymope,

This all comes down to understanding the nature of free will from Gods perspective.

From his perspective, its not our ability to make choices that is the problem, its our ability to gain the knowledge of sin. If there is no knowledge of sin, then sin cannot arise with the heart of man to start with where it all starts. This is what Jesus came to address in a nutshell. Our ability to conceptualize sin in our hearts was the real problem, because once its conceptualized, its only a matter of time before it becomes a reality. How we could possibly be responsible for this is beyond me.

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This is fully unbiblical. It does not even make sense.

Jane_Doe22 said:

Those seem to be fairly Armenian answers.

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Armenian people live in Europe.
Arminians follow Jakob Hermanszoon.
The latinized name is Jacobus Arminius.....

If you are going to try and post on something,it might help if you do your homework, learn a bit before you post. How can you comment accurately on a topic when you have read next to nothing on it?
Leave the Armeanian people alone.They live east of Turkey.

Anthony D'Arienzo said:

Renniks,



That is exactly what it says. If I show you will you admit it and publically repent of your false ideas on the passage?

If you agree I will take the time to show you. This is exactly what is at issue. We look at the same passage although the version you are quoting is not solid. You have the passage 100% wrong as you have posted it. I will show you if you want to see....let me know.

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So Renicks are you going to back out of your statement, or stand firm in your error. You have it completely wrong. If I show you will you admit it,and modify your view?