Regeneration before or after saving faith
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Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
I for sure don't claim to have all or any of the answers as some do, but my question would be, doesn't scripture say when the Spirit comes He will reprove the world of sin? How can any know they need to repent before the Holy Ghost has notified them they've only eaten from one tree their whole life,and there's another?
Calvinism does by default. In fact, originally it wasn't by default. Most of today's Calvinist want to soft pedal thier determinism so it's not so obvious, but the discerning can still see it.
"does it happen that Adam’s fall irremediably involved so many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death unless because it so pleased God? … The decree is dreadful, I confess. Yet no one can deny that God foreknew what end man was to have before he created him, and consequently foreknew because he so ordained by his decree. (Calvin, Institutes, III.xxiii.7).
[Reprobation is] God’s eternal decree that the destiny of certain men shall be everlasting death, whether one views it as God’s passing those men by with the grace of election or as the determination to damn (Engelsma, Hyper-Calvinism, 44).
From all eternity some were decreed by their sins to come into judgment or condemnation (Manton, Commentary on Jude, 128).
We believe that from all eternity God has intended to leave some of Adam’s posterity in their sins, and that the decisive factor in the life of each is to be found only in God’s will (Boettner, Predestination, 104).
By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His own glory, some men and angels are predestined unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death (Westminster Confession of Faith, III:3).
So you can quit trying to pull the wool over my eyes.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
My question too all here is still, whom brought to your attention that there was something in need of repentance?
Was it the Holy Spirit, or was it some form of personal righteousness that you possessed outside the power of God?
Was it the Holy Spirit, or was it some form of personal righteousness that you possessed outside the power of God?
Exactly. The Spirit convicts all of sin. Not all respond with submission, but most turn away and remain in darkness. I don't see anyone arguing that we convicted ourselves. Prevenient grace is the grace of God that goes before and convicts of sin, but it's not irresistible.
Acts 7:51
I'm still waiting...I suppose you think you have something that all the other Calvinists I've debated don't have?
Anthony D'Arienzo
Well-Known Member
Pull the wool over your eyes.....hardly.
You have posted some fine quotes....
I can see you do not understand any of the quotes you yourself offered.
Just wanted to allow you time to modify your statements.
You show a rabid dislike of the truth which we will now explore.
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Lol, the " you just don't understand" technique.
Nothing hard to understand about this:
"By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His own glory, some men and angels are predestined unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death."(Westminster Confession of Faith, III:3).
I suspect that most Calvinists in the pews, never hear that one. Instead, there is a vague reference to God's sovereignty and lots of appeal to mystery. But there's nothing mysterious about theological determinism. Once you get rid of all the smoke and mirrors, it's not much different from atheistic determinism.
Anthony D'Arienzo
Well-Known Member
My guess is all "the other Calvinists " have made short work of you and your hatred of truth.there are on each forum anti cal keyboard Rambo's who like Don Quixote fight imaginary strawmen foes instead of windmills.
Based on your posting it is clear that the Calvinists on here that you desire to attack have already answered you and tried to help.
At this point you have made it clear how you want this to go....well you have got it my friend.
Anthony D'Arienzo
Well-Known Member
The statement in the 1644 is 100% biblically accurate as is the 1689 confession of faith.
I say you do not understand because it is now
painfully obvious.
I know you do not desire help, but I will use your error to contrast and show the truth.
Completely unnecessary flaming in response to a late-night auto correct typo.
For starters: I thank you for addressing my questions directly.
As I said, my gaol here is to strive to understand you and what/how/why you believe as you do. And this response does illuminate things in that regard. Thank you.
Anthony D'Arienzo
Well-Known Member
Since you seek to avoid 2 pet3:9 we will start there and use your misguided post to offer truth to others who might like to study the passage...
Avoid? I believe I was the one who brought that verse up.
So you have now admitted that you were not honest about what Calvinism teaches about some being chosen for eternal damnation... Let the record show.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
My mamma when I ran out of the house without my diaper!
Anthony D'Arienzo
Well-Known Member
Renniks,
Speaking of 2 pet 3:9.....I posted this;
Anthony D'Arienzo said: ↑
Answer to 2 Pet3:9...Everyone spoken of in This passage is going to be saved. That is a statement of fact. God is not willing that any of the Elect perish, not one.....so if you notice the context is God is longsuffering with the wicked until the last os the elect are saved;
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
To which Renniks begins posting his opposition to this making these 3 statements;
Really? Who was being addressed? Let's look at the bible to get a hint;
2 Peter 3 King James Version (KJV)
3 This second epistle, beloved,
We notice two things here...it is "this second epistle"....who was the first one addressed too?
Whoever these people are...He calls them "beloved"...lets look at the first epistle as he calls them to remember what he had previously instructed them...
Yes...you guessed it, he is writing to these strangers who he describes as ELECT according to the FOREKNOWLEDGE of God...
look here;
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Rennicks, don't you just hate when the Calvinistic apostles used these terms that Calvinist believers delight in? It gets even clearer as they are called a chosen people to be called to be Holy saints and suffer at the hands of the unbelieving world.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
We can go all through 1 pet and see a contrast between the beloved saints and the unbelieving heathen.
I now write unto you;
Back to 2 Pet3....He speaks to them as beloved and identifies them as the objects of his writing as contrasted with the ungodly scoffers, who you deny there is any distinction??
in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
He links to what who and what were the subject of his first epistle...by writing he wanted to stir their memory
I could take much more time and detail but suffice it to say,,, scripture did it, not me. I and other Calvinists understand and believe it. You and other semi Pelagians oppose and despise the teaching
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness;
but is longsuffering to us-ward,
not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
It says exactly what I posted....He is declaring that God is longsuffering with the wicked until every last one of the beloved elect who are foreknown by God, are born, grow, and are born again.
Rennicks claims there are not two groups of people but there are, from these verses, the beloved believers are contrasted with these ungodly persons;
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days
scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Yes, rennicks you do not understand this passage or the quotes you offered.
Speaking of 2 pet 3:9.....I posted this;
Anthony D'Arienzo said: ↑
Answer to 2 Pet3:9...Everyone spoken of in This passage is going to be saved. That is a statement of fact. God is not willing that any of the Elect perish, not one.....so if you notice the context is God is longsuffering with the wicked until the last os the elect are saved;
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
To which Renniks begins posting his opposition to this making these 3 statements;
That is exactly what it says. If I show you will you admit it and publically repent of your false ideas on the passage? Notice Rennicks did not agree to this,lol.
Really? Who was being addressed? Let's look at the bible to get a hint;
2 Peter 3 King James Version (KJV)
3 This second epistle, beloved,
We notice two things here...it is "this second epistle"....who was the first one addressed too?
Whoever these people are...He calls them "beloved"...lets look at the first epistle as he calls them to remember what he had previously instructed them...
Yes...you guessed it, he is writing to these strangers who he describes as ELECT according to the FOREKNOWLEDGE of God...
look here;
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Rennicks, don't you just hate when the Calvinistic apostles used these terms that Calvinist believers delight in? It gets even clearer as they are called a chosen people to be called to be Holy saints and suffer at the hands of the unbelieving world.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
We can go all through 1 pet and see a contrast between the beloved saints and the unbelieving heathen.
I now write unto you;
Back to 2 Pet3....He speaks to them as beloved and identifies them as the objects of his writing as contrasted with the ungodly scoffers, who you deny there is any distinction??
in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
He links to what who and what were the subject of his first epistle...by writing he wanted to stir their memory
I could take much more time and detail but suffice it to say,,, scripture did it, not me. I and other Calvinists understand and believe it. You and other semi Pelagians oppose and despise the teaching
No it does not...the text says ;
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness;
but is longsuffering to us-ward,
not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
It says exactly what I posted....He is declaring that God is longsuffering with the wicked until every last one of the beloved elect who are foreknown by God, are born, grow, and are born again.
Rennicks claims there are not two groups of people but there are, from these verses, the beloved believers are contrasted with these ungodly persons;
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days
scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Yes, rennicks you do not understand this passage or the quotes you offered.
Anthony D'Arienzo
Well-Known Member
The statement does not say that Rennicks...where does it say that? You say that but the confession does not, look up the theological term for preterition before you go further into error.
preterition. noun. The act of passing by, disregarding, or omitting. Law The failure of a testator to provide for a legal heir in his or her will. Christianity The Calvinist doctrine that God neglected to designate those who would be damned, positively determining only the elect.
You said:"who suggests people are "irresistably chosen" for damnation.
When I say you do not know what you are talking about, this again is a prime example.
What are you talking about?
The term used is irresitable grace...not irresistable damnation; from the 1689 confession of faith.."
The confession States:
" by the decree of God, for the manifestation of His own glory, some men and angels are predestined unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death."(Westminster Confession of Faith, III:3).
Foreordained to everlasting death is Crystal clear. Do they have another choice? That's what I thought. They are chosen for damnation, anyway you slice it, or try to dance around it.
How about a simple question? If I write my son or daughter a letter, and express my affection for them, then tell my son or daughter, that God desires to be merciful to everyone, would they interpret that to mean that God desires to be merciful only to the people in my family? Pretty silly interpretation, there.
Your emphasis was that this ‘you’ in ‘patient towards you’ refers to the Christians who are the elect of God. The Greek for ‘you’ is humas, accusative plural. Because 2 Peter is addressed to ‘you’ Christians – the elect – does that mean that the ‘you’ only applies to Christians?
Do all these other verses only apply to Christians?
- ‘False prophets also arose among the people….’ (2:1);
- ‘Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed’ (2:2);
- ‘In their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep’ (2:3);
- ‘To keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority. Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones’ (2:9-10);
- 2:12-19 describes blasphemous, sensuous, deceptive human beings for whom’ the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved’ (2:17).
- ‘Scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires’ (3:3); these scoffers will question the promise of Christ’s second coming;
- ‘Count the patience of our Lord as salvation’ (3;15);
- ‘Take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability’ (3:17).
- If not, then why do you assume that " any" in this verse only applies to the already saved?
- writing to Christians does not prohibit instruction to and about the ungodly. It is consistent biblical interpretation to conclude that 2 Peter 3:8 is appealing to the unbelievers when it states that the Lord is ‘not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance’. The ‘any’ refers to unbelievers who are perishing and the ‘all’ indicates all unbelievers who should repent.
- Who will ‘perish’ according to the biblical mandate? Here are a few biblical examples:
‘The way of the wicked will perish’ (Psalm 1:6);
- Jesus spoke of Galilean sinners, telling his audience, ‘I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish’ (Luke 13:3);
- In John 3:16, Jesus made it clear who would not perish: ‘For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life’;
- Now here's a really amusing part, you say this is only for believers, because that's who Paul is writing to, but believers' don't need to repent....they already have.
- Oh and btw, Sproul also said:
- "From all eternity, without any prior view of our human behavior, God has chosen some unto election and others unto reprobation. " Not just passed by some, although that doesn't make any practical difference.
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