The Great Deception

DNB · Mar 27, 2020

Dcopymope said:
I'd reckon that he wouldn't have allowed it to overpopulate to start with. Not sure what you mean by the second question. There was nothing about Adam and Eve's growth rate after the fall that was different than it was before the fall. Death may have been evident to them because they saw it with animals as well. This is what some people believe, that immortality only applied to Adam and Eve, though I can't say for sure. This brings me to the purpose of the tree of life. Its purpose was exactly what God said it was for, to sustain their life. When he kicked them out of Eden, it was specifically so that they wouldn't gain access to the tree and live forever. We will see the tree of life again in New Jerusalem. John says the tree is for the "healing of the nations", so the tree is not just an allegory of something else like some claim. The ramifications is every but a physical one.
This wouldn't be a concern to God if the ramifications were not a physical one. It was clearly granting them immortality.

2nd Question meaning, if humans had children, then children grew. If they grew eternally, how old will they be?
The Tree of Life was in the Garden of Eden, before man had sinned, i.e. before there was allegedly no death. What was it's purpose therefore if no one died?
So, all my observations were alluding to the fact that physical death was in the world before the fall.
The position that I hold at this point, is that man was created mortal and required the Tree of Life to protract his life. His sin caused him to be expelled from the Garden, with no access to the tree of Life, and therefore, he shalt surely die physically, and remain so.

I guess spiritually may not have been the best way to express the ramifications of the fall, without further explanation. For I meant it as his spirit will not rise again.

Dcopymope · Mar 27, 2020

DNB said:
2nd Question meaning, if humans had children, then children grew. If they grew eternally, how old will they be?

I don't know, how old will we be in the new earth to come where death will be a foreign concept?

DNB said:
The Tree of Life was in the Garden of Eden, before man had sinned, i.e. before there was allegedly no death. What was it's purpose therefore if no one died?

The same purpose it will server in new Jerusalem.

DNB said:
So, all my observations were alluding to the fact that physical death was in the world before the fall.
The position that I hold at this point, is that man was created mortal and required the Tree of Life to protract his life. His sin caused him to be expelled from the Garden, with no access to the tree of Life, and therefore, he shalt surely die physically, and remain so.

That's what I was saying, the Tree of Life was designed to sustain or increase their life span. Adams disobedience in itself didn't bring about sin, what brought about sin was them obtaining the very knowledge of it from that other tree they were told not to eat from, at which point, they became as God, knowing "good" and "evil".

DNB said:
I guess spiritually may not have been the best way to express the ramifications of the fall, without further explanation. For I meant it as his spirit will not rise again.

Well I explain the full ramifications of the fall in the link below, think you read it before. You see, most people think this is just about Adam being enticed into making a bad decision. This couldn't be further from the truth. I'm convinced that the true reason why he put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden to start with was because postponing the inevitable, that being the knowledge of sin arising within man like it did within Satan, would serve no purpose but to delay the inevitable need for atonement. Along with my thread, I'll leave you with these video to drive the point home for you.

"There was no other way"

The "Endgame": Why the sacrifice had to occur

Bobby Jo · Mar 28, 2020

Jane_Doe22 said:
... if i were to have a literally-must-be-proven-by-scientific-evidence look at things, I would have chucked this entire faith thing out of the air lock.

Hi JD22,

You offer an interesting statement, one in which my experience is the exact inverse.

Perhaps if you had more evidence as to what Scripture says and History fulfills, you'd find not only statistical substantiation of Scripture along with History, but also with events which are still transpiring. -- Exactly how can any "History Book" write "history" before it occurs; and yet Prophetic Scripture is able?

So given the choice of which is MORE CAPABLE, obviously the second succeeds; and the first is a weak substitute at best because some "history" isn't understood even DECADES after it occurred.

Take for example the Korean War. It started in 1950 when the North Koreans invaded South Korea. But it wasn't until the 1985 Soviet Union collapse that we were given access to Soviet records which documented that the Soviets gave North Korea the "green light" to attack South Korea, based upon a speech by the U.S. Secretary of State, Dean Acheson, to the National Press Club where he asserted that if N. Korea attacked S. Korea that the U.S. would assign of S. Korea's defense to the U.N. And given that the Soviets have a seat on the Permanent Membership of the Security Council, they would veto any attempt by the U.N. to defend S. Korea. But things got so "heated" in the Security Council, the Soviets forgot their game plan and WALKED OUT, not leaving so much as a janitor to veto any resolution to defend S. Korea.

So "history" is inherently weak. But Prophetic Scripture is robust, to the point of explaining these types of events (including the International Recognition of the Nation/State of Israel, prophesied EXACTLY in 1948) some thousands of years before it happens.

But sometimes we don't know what we don't know, and make presumptions which are incorrect, -- typical of your assertion.

Bobby Jo

DNB · Mar 28, 2020

Dcopymope said:
That's what I was saying, the Tree of Life was designed to sustain or increase their life span. Adams disobedience in itself didn't bring about sin, what brought about sin was them obtaining the very knowledge of it from that other tree they were told not to eat from, at which point, they became as God, knowing "good" and "evil".

My point is that the concept of death was in the Garden of Eden. We agree I think.
Knowledge of good & evil is clearly and obviously not a sin. Disobedience is.
God said, '...they have become like us, knowing good & evil...' Us, means God & His heavenly host. Thus, you haven't a leg to stand on claiming that, that specific knowledge corrupts.
But what does corrupt, is having that knowledge without the wisdom to decide right from wrong. And this, satan knew very well. Similar to how money is not intrinsically evil, but in the hands of a child, or the unwise & immature, it's can be the root of many vices.
Where there is no law, there is no sin, and vice versa. Thus, God laid down the law, they broke it, therefore there was sin.
God does not plant trees that are corruptible and inherently evil. Thus, your theory is incorrect.

Dcopymope · Mar 28, 2020

DNB said:
My point is that the concept of death was in the Garden of Eden. We agree I think.
Knowledge of good & evil is clearly and obviously not a sin. Disobedience is.
God said, '...they have become like us, knowing good & evil...' Us, means God & His heavenly host. Thus, you haven't a leg to stand on claiming that, that specific knowledge corrupts.
But what does corrupt, is having that knowledge without the wisdom to decide right from wrong. And this, satan knew very well. Similar to how money is not intrinsically evil, but in the hands of a child, or the unwise & immature, it's can be the root of many vices.
Where there is no law, there is no sin, and vice versa. Thus, God laid down the law, they broke it, therefore there was sin.
God does not plant trees that are corruptible and inherently evil. Thus, your theory is incorrect.

If there was nothing wrong with the tree, then God would have been perfectly fine with them eating from it to begin with, and you would see it in New Jerusalem. The answer to all these questions you all keep posting is sitting right in front of your face at the very beginning of the book. If there is no knowledge of sin, then as far as God is concerned there is nothing to be concerned about. Take that tree out of the equation, and sin corrupting the heart of man as it did with Satan was happening regardless. You are free to prove otherwise, if you believe you have a better idea than God. This is why I put that thread in the Apologetics section of the forum. You wanted to know the full ramifications of the fall, now you have it.

DNB · Mar 28, 2020

Dcopymope said:
If there was nothing wrong with the tree, then God would have been perfectly fine with them eating from it to begin with, and you would see it in New Jerusalem. The answer to all these questions you all keep posting is sitting right in front of your face at the very beginning of the book. If there is no knowledge of sin, then as far as God is concerned there is nothing to be concerned about. Take that tree out of the equation, and sin corrupting the heart of man as it did with Satan was happening regardless. You are free to prove otherwise, if you believe you have a better idea than God. This is why I put that thread in the Apologetics section of the forum. You wanted to know the full ramifications of the fall, now you have it.

Like I said, knowledge of certain vices will destroy the unwise. That is why God prohibited it. Sex is not evil to a married & loving couple, but to a fool it is.
God is not evil for knowing the difference between good & evil, which he clearly does, nor does he create evil things.
You cannot refute those two fundaments.

Paul Christensen · Mar 28, 2020

Jane_Doe22 said:
We can argue interpretations till the cows come home. Doesn’t change anyone’s mind or anything else

That's why when we are sharing the gospel with the unsaved, we don't go into debates like this.

Jane_Doe22 · Mar 28, 2020

Bobby Jo said:
Hi JD22,

You offer an interesting statement, one in which my experience is the exact inverse.

Perhaps if you had more evidence as to what Scripture says and History fulfills, you'd find not only statistical substantiation of Scripture along with History, but also with events which are still transpiring. -- Exactly how can any "History Book" write "history" before it occurs; and yet Prophetic Scripture is able?

So given the choice of which is MORE CAPABLE, obviously the second succeeds; and the first is a weak substitute at best because some "history" isn't understood even DECADES after it occurred.

Take for example the Korean War. It started in 1950 when the North Koreans invaded South Korea. But it wasn't until the 1985 Soviet Union collapse that we were given access to Soviet records which documented that the Soviets gave North Korea the "green light" to attack South Korea, based upon a speech by the U.S. Secretary of State, Dean Acheson, to the National Press Club where he asserted that if N. Korea attacked S. Korea that the U.S. would assign of S. Korea's defense to the U.N. And given that the Soviets have a seat on the Permanent Membership of the Security Council, they would veto any attempt by the U.N. to defend S. Korea. But things got so "heated" in the Security Council, the Soviets forgot their game plan and WALKED OUT, not leaving so much as a janitor to veto any resolution to defend S. Korea.

So "history" is inherently weak. But Prophetic Scripture is robust, to the point of explaining these types of events (including the International Recognition of the Nation/State of Israel, prophesied EXACTLY in 1948) some thousands of years before it happens.

But sometimes we don't know what we don't know, and make presumptions which are incorrect, -- typical of your assertion.

Bobby Jo

I thank you for your efforts here. It was a lot of time and thought put into your post. I am aware of that information , and many more facts too. And at the end, I stand by my comment about chucking things out the airlock.

Stumpmaster · Mar 28, 2020

DNB said:
If the tree of good & evil was not prohibited, do you think Adam & Eve would've ever considered themselves to be transgressors?

Some of my previously posted thoughts from elsewhere on the internet adapted here for your consideration, DNB.

Regarding the Tree Of The Knowledge Of Good And Evil mentioned first in Genesis 2:9...

A FAQ is "Why was the TOTKOGAE in the Garden of Eden where it was accessible to Adam and Eve?"

My Answer: Because good relationships require trust and trust must be subject to testing.

I believe the inclusion of the TOTKOGAE in the G of E was integral to God's relationship with Adam and Eve, and by implication from a historical perspective, also integral to His relationship with His Creation, particularly those whom He foreknows in eternity to be His flock.

Good and evil were of course known to God but since He had previously declared all aspects of His Creation as good this was the only characteristic, and experience, and nature He desired for all things to have. Satan of course had other plans.

From the beginning of Creation Satan's evil desires meant God was confronted with opposition, and meant His Creation was exposed to the possibility of experiencing the conflict that opposition to Him always brings.

The original sin of Satan, was his pride, and that caused him to be jealous of God and everything He had just Created, and particularly of the relationship that Adam and Eve now had with Him. Satan's guile in deceiving Eve, and causing Adam to sin was never any surprise to God but rather something that He always knew was inevitable, as were the consequences of the first man and woman having freewill.

I believe the Biblical narrative focusing on the Tree Of The Knowledge Of Good And Evil refers us to the Omniscience of God, and introduces us to His plan for testing trust and dealing with all that opposes Him in order to ensure the victory of good over evil.

Satan always manifests, whether through a snake, or through religious legalists, or through traitors like Judas, or through false prophets, he always manifests to oppose and contradict God and His Word.
John 8:44
(44) You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Satan is described in the Bible as the Tempter, and he consistently tempts people to believe things contrary to the truth of God's Word.
Mat 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If you be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
1Th 3:5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain.

According to the Bible the earth was without form and void before the six days of Creation, so there was no life and obviously no death before God created living things. The first physical death occurred when an animal was killed to provide Adam and Eve their covering. Later on Adam and Eve both died physically.

If the Genesis account of Adam and Eve is an allegory at what point does the genealogy associated with Jesus become allegorical?

Luk 3:23-38 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli, (24) Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph, (25) Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge, (26) Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda, (27) Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri, (28) Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er, (29) Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, (30) Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim, (31) Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David, (32) Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson, (33) Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda, (34) Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor, (35) Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala, (36) Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech, (37) Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan, (38) Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Enoch111 · Mar 28, 2020

Paul Christensen said:
Evolution is that powerful delusion that God has sent on those who are perishing.

It would be more accurate to say "one of the powerful delusions at the present". The Scripture you have quoted applies to the time of the Antichrist, when the delusion will be that the Antichrist is Christ and God, and will resolve the world's problems.

One of the current powerful delusions that is destroying the world is that political and theological liberalism is SUPERIOR to conservatism.

Trump Derangement Syndrome is no joke, and it is based upon this delusion. But what it is doing is thoroughly undermining everything that is sane and decent, and promoting everything that is wicked and evil day after day. One just has to see the IRRATIONAL DAILY ATTACKS on Donald Trump. It all goes back to this idea that the Left-Liberals are more virtuous than him. Which is total nonsense.

Can anyone imagine that the day would come when the greatest country in the world would have a pathetic and senile creep running for president, who was preceded by about two dozen clowns?

GerhardEbersoehn · Mar 28, 2020

Stumpmaster said:
(38) Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

GerhardEbersoehn · Mar 28, 2020

Dcopymope said:
I don't know, how old will we be in the new earth to come where death will be a foreign concept?

The same purpose it will server in new Jerusalem.

That's what I was saying, the Tree of Life was designed to sustain or increase their life span. Adams disobedience in itself didn't bring about sin, what brought about sin was them obtaining the very knowledge of it from that other tree they were told not to eat from, at which point, they became as God, knowing "good" and "evil".

Well I explain the full ramifications of the fall in the link below, think you read it before. You see, most people think this is just about Adam being enticed into making a bad decision. This couldn't be further from the truth. I'm convinced that the true reason why he put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden to start with was because postponing the inevitable, that being the knowledge of sin arising within man like it did within Satan, would serve no purpose but to delay the inevitable need for atonement. Along with my thread, I'll leave you with these video to drive the point home for you.

"There was no other way"

The "Endgame": Why the sacrifice had to occur

Poor or lucky Waltertjie. He should stick to what he's good at, the things a Jesuit should excel in.

Bobby Jo · Mar 28, 2020

Jane_Doe22 said:
.... I am aware of that information ...

You assertion is either from ignorance or more apparently from deception, because if you knew about the history of the Korean War in context, you would have cited that associated Prophetic Scripture where some 2,500 years ago, Daniel referenced Russia in that involvement along WITH that involvement, not having to wait some 35 years to find that involvement.

And as I tell people, -- you've been told what has FULL merit versus partial merit, and you've chosen the latter. So now your blood is on your own head!

Bobby Jo

DNB · Mar 28, 2020

Stumpmaster said:
"Why was the TOTKOGAE in the Garden of Eden where it was accessible to Adam and Eve?"
Because good relationships require trust and trust must be subject to testing.

Good and evil were of course known to God

The original sin of Satan deceiving Eve, was never any surprise to God but rather something that God in His wisdom knew was an inevitable consequence of the freewill.

I believe the Biblical narrative focusing on the Tree Of The Knowledge Of Good And Evil refers us to the Omniscience of God, and introduces us to His plan for testing trust and dealing with all that opposes Him in order to ensure the victory of good over evil.

According to the Bible the earth was without form and void before the six days of Creation, so there was no life and obviously no death before God created living things. The first physical death occurred when an animal was killed to provide Adam and Eve their covering. Later on Adam and Eve both died physically.

If the Genesis account of Adam and Eve is an allegory at what point does the genealogy associated with Jesus become allegorical?

Well, I don't believe that the existence or prohibition of the TOTKOGAE was just for trust, as though any forbidden object would have sufficed in order to instill faith and obedience.
Both God and Satan knew that such a powerful knowledge, in the hands of the naive and immature, would be utterly destructive. Introduce a child to sex, and hell will abound. But, when practiced by the wise, loving and decent, it can be beneficial.
Thus, I do believe that it exposed a creature's propensity to sin (disobedience in this case), even before the fall, or before any 'ontological' changes took place (Genesis 3:14-19), (I don't believe in fallen nature). Thus, although Christ's lordship was ordained before the world began, it was necessary to expose man's defiance to his Creator, and conversely, Jesus' uncompromised love for his Father. His Messiaship was truly deserved, and not favouritism.
Thus, the TOGAE had a significance beyond just it's appearance, if you will. Wise men don't sin, with or without the knowledge of sin. Wisdom is greater than iniquity, wisdom exposes the death of morality and character that is behind the acts of sin. I think that the TOGAE was necessary to reveal how a creature with both, a moral awareness (image of God) and free-will, will defy his Creator.

The killing of the animal for skin, may not have been the first conception of death. Like I said previously, Adam had to kill something in order to eat, the Tree of life implies death, and the injunction of the TOGAE stipulates death. The notion of death was in the world before the fall.

You don't think that I believe the Genesis account of creation to be an allegory, do you? I was extremely clear on that point. I am a Biblical literalist, first and foremost, with the periodic allowance of symbolism, allegory, hyperbole, anthropomorphism, metaphors, idioms, etc...

Jane_Doe22 · Mar 28, 2020

Bobby Jo said:
You assertion is either from ignorance or more apparently from deception, because if you knew about the history of the Korean War in context, you would have cited that associated Prophetic Scripture where some 2,500 years ago, Daniel referenced Russia in that involvement along WITH that involvement, not having to wait some 35 years to find that involvement.

And as I tell people, -- you've been told what has FULL merit versus partial merit, and you've chosen the latter. So now your blood is on your own head!

Bobby Jo

I think i need to clarify something here: I am a lady of faith. However, I am a lady of faith because of testimony from the Holy Spirit. Not because of external things persuading me in that regard. In fact I will openly acknowledge that when looking at just the external things, I don't find the cases presented convicting past a reasonable doubt.

Bobby Jo · Mar 28, 2020

Jane_Doe22 said:
I think i need to clarify something here: I am a lady of faith.

That's good news. And I appreciate your clarifying!

Jane_Doe22 said:
... However, I am a lady of faith because of testimony from the Holy Spirit. Not because of external things persuading me in that regard. ....

Deut. 18:22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously, you need not be afraid of him.

As such, we can and SHOULD validate any assertion, whether from Scripture or from man, under the evidence of History, -- as I've attempted to demonstrate. And if a person of "faith" were "complete", they'd understand all Scriptural aspects including Bible Prophecy:

1 Cor. 14:39 So, my brethren, earnestly desire to prophesy

... and thereby also understand Bible Prophecy, because we can Validate GOD's existence by his own Word where History is dictated BEFORE IT HAPPENS.

Bobby Jo

Jane_Doe22 · Mar 28, 2020

Bobby Jo said:
That's good news. And I appreciate your clarifying!

Deut. 18:22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously, you need not be afraid of him.

As such, we can and SHOULD validate any assertion, whether from Scripture or from man, under the evidence of History, -- as I've attempted to demonstrate. And if a person of "faith" were "complete", they'd understand all Scriptural aspects including Bible Prophecy:

1 Cor. 14:39 So, my brethren, earnestly desire to prophesy

... and thereby also understand Bible Prophecy, because we can Validate GOD's existence by his own Word where History is dictated BEFORE IT HAPPENS.

Bobby Jo

The Holy Spirit's testimony works for me

Bobby Jo · Mar 28, 2020

Jane_Doe22 said:
The Holy Spirit's testimony works for me

Scripture and History must agree with whatever you think you "hear". And so far, -- the result may be in doubt.

Bobby Jo

Dcopymope · Mar 28, 2020

DNB said:
Like I said, knowledge of certain vices will destroy the unwise. That is why God prohibited it. Sex is not evil to a married & loving couple, but to a fool it is.
God is not evil for knowing the difference between good & evil, which he clearly does, nor does he create evil things.
You cannot refute those two fundaments.

You're still not getting the full ramifications of the fall, knowing what sin is was not the problem, its the consequences of knowing it that is the issue. For God, the consequences of knowing sin is zero, because God is impervious to its effects, we aren't, and that's why the atonement was inevitable. Why you are bringing God into this equation is beyond me, because the creation could never hope to compare to the holiness of God. Unless you are going to claim to be without sin like God, at which point John would call you a liar.

Stumpmaster · Mar 28, 2020

DNB said:
Adam had to kill something in order to eat,

Maybe you missed these verses, DNB. Every living thing fed on herbs and fruit before the fall of Creation (which fall is affirmed in Romans 8). Not a thing was killed before Adam and Eve partook of the forbidden fruit. Sad that you refuse to align with God's Word.

Gen 1:29-30 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. (30) And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creeps upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

Rom 8:19-22 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. (20) For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; (21) because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (22) For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.

The Great Deception

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