Who Is "the Restrainer" In 2 Thess. 2:6-7

Marcus O'Reillius said:

Jerusalem and Daniel's people still are.

The "end" Gabriel is speaking about it the end of the seventy 'seven's.

War goes on onto the end of the seventy 'sevens'. We still have war. We still have Jerusalem. We still have Daniel's people (depending on which group you place Daniel, two of which I can think of are still here) so to the gap in the prophecy is still in effect, and we await the start of the one 'seven'.

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Jerusalem is occupied by the descendants of the Khazars, a nomadic pagan tribe which arbitrarily adopted Judaism, and Israel is but a fraction of the "Promised Land" in Scripture, but keep on looking to them and it for fulfillment of prophecy and you will certainly be overcome by the Antichrist in Rome.

Do you believe in chemtrails too?

Seriously, you have more cult like conspiracy theories than you do any good scholarly approach to the Bible.

The end in Daniel 9:26 refers to the end of the seventy 'sevens'.

Gabriel's coming to Daniel has nothing to do with the 2300 days and nights from a previous vision.

Reading how you will twist confirm and prevail around and dance between the New Covenant timing from beginning to end has had me conclude you are thoroughly lost and not worth even trying to reason with on this board.

Unfortunately, all too often eschatology sinks to the realm of kooks all making crazy declarations backed up with dire warnings meant to manipulate rather than educate.

Marcus O'Reillius said:

Do you believe in chemtrails too?

Seriously, you have more cult like conspiracy theories than you do any good scholarly approach to the Bible.

The end in Daniel 9:26 refers to the end of the seventy 'sevens'.

Gabriel's coming to Daniel has nothing to do with the 2300 days and nights from a previous vision.

Reading how you will twist confirm and prevail around and dance between the New Covenant timing from beginning to end has had me conclude you are thoroughly lost and not worth even trying to reason with on this board.

Unfortunately, all too often eschatology sinks to the realm of kooks all making crazy declarations backed up with dire warnings meant to manipulate rather than educate.

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Gabriel's mission was to open Daniel's understanding of the "vision" he'd received in chapter 8 - y'know, the one that he'd sought an explanation from those who could not offer one. "I'm here to explain the vision, Daniel...Seventy Weeks are determined........"

Yes, Jesus, the God of the Old Testament Who promised the New Covenant, came to confirm that New Covenant in His flesh. Be a part of that Covenant and allow the Holy Spirit to write His law on your heart.

No it wasn't because of chapter 8. You're so far off base as to be kooky.

If you want to say the New Covenant only lasted seven years, you're also way over there in kookyland.

Watch out for those chemtrails.

As We see the retainer must be the Holy Ghost, if you look on this forum and it the last day of the last days of the church and then the true church of Christ will be raptured and mystery Babylon will be left>the whore.If you read the Holy Ghost will not seal in the tribulation as it did in the church age because the true church is gone, yes the ghost will still be working on earth but in a diff way.

Phoneman777 said:

You mean the "Temple of God" where the whole nation of Israel finally sticks their collective middle finger in the face of God as they begin once again sacrificing lambs which pointed to their Messiah they hate to this day and refer to as "the Great Imposter"??? Really?

God would NEVER refer to such a building as a "Temple of God" and neither does Paul.

There are only 7 temples in the Bible:

1. Mosaic Tabernacle
2. Temple Solomon built
3. Temple Zerrubabel built
4. Jesus' body
5. The Church
6. Saint's body
7. and lastly (drum roll please).....................................................The Temple In Heaven.

The Bible makes no mention of an "8th Temple of God" anywhere.
Amazing how that number 7 keeps showing up and signifying perfection/completeness, isn't it?

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Then what is Ezek 40-48 about Mr. Phone?

Marcus O'Reillius said:

No it wasn't because of chapter 8. You're so far off base as to be kooky.

If you want to say the New Covenant only lasted seven years, you're also way over there in kookyland.

Watch out for those chemtrails.

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Most non-osas believers are in kookyland. Their root is cracky backwards. Because they have no root.

Matt 13:20-23 NIV The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

blessedhope said:

As We see the retainer must be the Holy Ghost, if you look on this forum and it the last day of the last days of the church and then the true church of Christ will be raptured and mystery Babylon will be left>the whore.If you read the Holy Ghost will not seal in the tribulation as it did in the church age because the true church is gone, yes the ghost will still be working on earth but in a diff way.

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Tradition tells us the restrainer is the Holy Ghost, but if you study scripture more closely we can see more clearly that Michael the angel is the restrainer in the middle of the 70th week. The restrainer is Michael the angel at the abomination of desolation. The word "arise" in Dan 12:1 is translated "amad" and can also mean to...

1. stand still, stop, cease moving, of moon Joshua 10:13 (J E; "" וַיִּדֹּם), sun Joshua 10:13, both, Habakkuk 3:11; of person 1 Samuel 9:27 (opposed to עָבַר), 2 Samuel 2:28 (opposed to רָדַף), עִמְדוּ עֲמֹ֫דוּ Nahum 2:9 +; stop flowing (of oil) 2 Kings 4:6; remain standing, with תַּחְתֵּינוּ Judges 7:21; 1 Samuel 14:9 etc.; of eruption in skin = remain unchanged Leviticus 13:23,28; so (without ׳ת) Leviticus 13:5,37 (all P).
2. be inactive 2 Chronicles 20:17 (opposed to לְהִלָּחֵם, + הִתְיַצְּבוּ).
3. stop, cease doing a thing 2 Kings 13:18; with מִן Genesis 29:35; Genesis 30:9 (both J), Joel 1:15.
4. tarry, delay Genesis 45:9 (E), Joshua 10:19 (J E; opposed to רָדַף), 1 Samuel 20:38 (opposed to מְהֵרָה, חוּשָׁה), +.
5. stand afar מֵרָחוֺק Exodus 20:18,21 (E), Isaiah 59:14; Psalm 38:12, ׳בְּר Psalm 10:1; ׳מִנֶּגֶד מֵר 2 Kings 2:7; stand aloof, מִנֶֹּגֶד Obadiah 11; Psalm 38:12.
6. stand (silent) Job 32:16.
7. grow flat, insipid (Gie), taste of wine Jeremiah 48:11 (figurative of Moab), or remain unchanged (so most, in that case compare 3b). — עָמְדִי Daniel 11:1b is corrupt, read probably עָמַדְתִּי, or עָמַד (מִיכָאֵל subject), join then to Daniel 10:21 and strike out Daniel 11:1a; so Bev Behrm MartiKau.

Why does Michael stop moving? So God can send them a strong delusion 2 Thess 2:10-12 NIV. It is clear that there are angelic powers over world empires and leaders and nobody is going to come to power in the land of Israel if the angel of Israel (Michael) prevents them.

Dan 12:1 NIV “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

2 Thess 2:6-12 NIV And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Rev 12:6-12 NIV The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days. 7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. 11 They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death. 12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short."

I think we have to accept that the knowledge of whomever Paul told the Thessalonians the "one" "standing in the midst" was - has been forever lost in this life.

God can use Spirits other than just the Holy Spirit: Read 1Ki 22.
God has other Agents than just Michael too.

So while anyone can pick someone to be the one; no one can prove the one they pick is the "one".

And ATP: If you, being saved now, take the 'mark of the beast' in the Great Tribulation, will you still go to Heaven?
Or would not the words of the Angel in Rev14:9-10 be true, and by your unfaithfulness and fear, you will be tormented with Wrath and end up suffering Hellfire because of the resultant disobedience from your lack of faith?

The one thing we can say, and prove logically, is that the "one" is NOT the Church or the Elect.

That is because the "one" must be removed so the Man of Lawlessness can rise up,
...and only when he has been made known, does Jesus come, and we are gathered unto Him.

Marcus O'Reillius said:

And ATP: If you, being saved now, take the 'mark of the beast' in the Great Tribulation, will you still go to Heaven?
Or would not the words of the Angel in Rev14:9-10 be true, and by your unfaithfulness and fear, you will be tormented with Wrath and end up suffering Hellfire because of the resultant disobedience from your lack of faith?

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The Mark of the Beast is for nonbelievers only. Believers persevere because He remains faithful to us until the end.

The Holy Spirit is called the Comforter and Helper among many...Psa 10:14, Psa 27:9, Psa 86:17 NIV, Psa 118:7, Isa 12:1 NIV, Isa 49:13 NIV, Jer 8:18 NIV, John 14:25-27 NIV, Luke 16:25 NIV, 2 Cor 1:3-7 NIV, 2 Cor 7:6 NIV, Heb 13:6 NIV..

Marcus O'Reillius said:

The one thing we can say, and prove logically, is that the "one" is NOT the Church or the Elect.

That is because the "one" must be removed so the Man of Lawlessness can rise up,
...and only when he has been made known, does Jesus come, and we are gathered unto Him.

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Yes. The restrainer is Michael the angel.

Marcus O'Reillius said:

No it wasn't because of chapter 8. You're so far off base as to be kooky.

If you want to say the New Covenant only lasted seven years, you're also way over there in kookyland.

Watch out for those chemtrails.

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You're wrong, friend. "Understand the matter and consider the vision" refers EXACTLY to the vision Daniel had in chapter 8, but was still confused about even after the angel interpreted it for him. Anyone reading the Bible with his eyes open can see that.

It is you who insist that the Covenant that was confirmed only lasts seven years, when no such expiration date can be found in all of Scripture. The Covenant which Jesus first promised in the O.T. and then came in His flesh to confirm it for seven years has never expired, but your Jesuit influences have convinced you that after seven years the Covenant expires. You will never achieve spiritual enlightenment as long as you continue to subscribe to Jesuit Futurism.

blessedhope said:

As We see the retainer must be the Holy Ghost, if you look on this forum and it the last day of the last days of the church and then the true church of Christ will be raptured and mystery Babylon will be left>the whore.If you read the Holy Ghost will not seal in the tribulation as it did in the church age because the true church is gone, yes the ghost will still be working on earth but in a diff way.

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If Paul meant to teach that the Holy Spirit is the Restrainer, why didn't he shout it from the rooftop instead of being so secretive? "Hey, saints, you might be suffering for the faith, but take heart, because the HOLY SPIRIT has got His celestial foot on the neck of the "man of sin" Antichrist!"

No, friend, the ECF believed the Restrainer was the Roman Empire, as did Paul, and is why he refused to pen in a letter to the Thessalonians what he'd told them personally, because a letter in the wrong hands of the authorities discussing the fall of the Roman Empire would have spelled instant doom for the fledgling Christian church of his time.

Also, if Jesus comes as a thief in the night to Rapture the church, how can the whore or anyone else remain behind? Peter says that when the Lord comes as a thief in the night, the entire planet will be wiped out.

Marcus O'Reillius said:

I think we have to accept that the knowledge of whomever Paul told the Thessalonians the "one" "standing in the midst" was - has been forever lost in this life.

God can use Spirits other than just the Holy Spirit: Read 1Ki 22.
God has other Agents than just Michael too.

So while anyone can pick someone to be the one; no one can prove the one they pick is the "one".

And ATP: If you, being saved now, take the 'mark of the beast' in the Great Tribulation, will you still go to Heaven?
Or would not the words of the Angel in Rev14:9-10 be true, and by your unfaithfulness and fear, you will be tormented with Wrath and end up suffering Hellfire because of the resultant disobedience from your lack of faith?

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Lost? Have you never read what the ECF, men not far removed from Paul's day, wrote about the Restrainer? Why is every ancient document found written by them on the subject found to consistently point to the Roman Empire as Paul's Restrainer? Coincidence? No, common knowledge carefully passed down can alone account for such unanimity, yet you and the rest of your Jesuit sympathizing ilk readily insist that it must be some Agent of Holiness, because to accept the testimony of the Fathers demands you accept the Antichrist of Historisicm - the Papacy, which arose after the Roman Empire was taken out of the way. The only cure for the Cognitive Dissonance from which you are so sorely afflicted is to just man up and face your fear.

ATP said:

The Mark of the Beast is for nonbelievers only. Believers persevere because He remains faithful to us until the end.

The Holy Spirit is called the Comforter and Helper among many...Psa 10:14, Psa 27:9, Psa 86:17 NIV, Psa 118:7, Isa 12:1 NIV, Isa 49:13 NIV, Jer 8:18 NIV, John 14:25-27 NIV, Luke 16:25 NIV, 2 Cor 1:3-7 NIV, 2 Cor 7:6 NIV, Heb 13:6 NIV..


Yes. The restrainer is Michael the angel.

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The Mark of the Beast is for non-believers? Friend, please READ the Three Angels' Messages! All three messages - to worship the Creator alone, to come out of (spiritual) Babylon, and to not take the Mark of the Beast - are directed at God's followers, not unbelievers.

Phoneman777 said:

No, friend, the ECF believed the Restrainer was the Roman Empire, as did Paul, and is why he refused to pen in a letter to the Thessalonians what he'd told them personally, because a letter in the wrong hands of the authorities discussing the fall of the Roman Empire would have spelled instant doom for the fledgling Christian church of his time.

Click to expand...

Uhh no. The restrainer is Michael the angel at the abomination of desolation. The word "arise" in Dan 12:1 is translated "amad" and can also mean to...

1. stand still, stop, cease moving, of moon Joshua 10:13 (J E; "" וַיִּדֹּם), sun Joshua 10:13, both, Habakkuk 3:11; of person 1 Samuel 9:27 (opposed to עָבַר), 2 Samuel 2:28 (opposed to רָדַף), עִמְדוּ עֲמֹ֫דוּ Nahum 2:9 +; stop flowing (of oil) 2 Kings 4:6; remain standing, with תַּחְתֵּינוּ Judges 7:21; 1 Samuel 14:9 etc.; of eruption in skin = remain unchanged Leviticus 13:23,28; so (without ׳ת) Leviticus 13:5,37 (all P).
2. be inactive 2 Chronicles 20:17 (opposed to לְהִלָּחֵם, + הִתְיַצְּבוּ).
3. stop, cease doing a thing 2 Kings 13:18; with מִן Genesis 29:35; Genesis 30:9 (both J), Joel 1:15.
4. tarry, delay Genesis 45:9 (E), Joshua 10:19 (J E; opposed to רָדַף), 1 Samuel 20:38 (opposed to מְהֵרָה, חוּשָׁה), +.
5. stand afar מֵרָחוֺק Exodus 20:18,21 (E), Isaiah 59:14; Psalm 38:12, ׳בְּר Psalm 10:1; ׳מִנֶּגֶד מֵר 2 Kings 2:7; stand aloof, מִנֶֹּגֶד Obadiah 11; Psalm 38:12.
6. stand (silent) Job 32:16.
7. grow flat, insipid (Gie), taste of wine Jeremiah 48:11 (figurative of Moab), or remain unchanged (so most, in that case compare 3b). — עָמְדִי Daniel 11:1b is corrupt, read probably עָמַדְתִּי, or עָמַד (מִיכָאֵל subject), join then to Daniel 10:21 and strike out Daniel 11:1a; so Bev Behrm MartiKau.

Why does Michael stop moving? So God can send them a strong delusion 2 Thess 2:10-12 NIV. It is clear that there are angelic powers over world empires and leaders and nobody is going to come to power in the land of Israel if the angel of Israel (Michael) prevents them.

Dan 12:1 NIV “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

2 Thess 2:6-12 NIV And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Rev 12:6-12 NIV The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days. 7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. 11 They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death. 12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short."

Phoneman777 said:

The Mark of the Beast is for non-believers? Friend, please READ the Three Angels' Messages! All three messages - to worship the Creator alone, to come out of (spiritual) Babylon, and to not take the Mark of the Beast - are directed at God's followers, not unbelievers.

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Strike three Phone. Time to go back to the dugout. How can a believer receive the Mark of the Beast when they've already received the Mark of the Holy Spirit...

John 6:27 NIV Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."

1 Cor 9:2 NIV Even though I may not be an apostle to others, surely I am to you! For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.

2 Cor 1:21-22 NIV Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 NIV And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

ATP said:

Yes. The restrainer is Michael the angel.

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Anyone can say who the one is; no one can prove it though.

Pinning the tail on the donkey in this case is just as much idle speculation as those people who will tell you that they know who the anti-Christ is.

The use of the neutral gender in one case goes against a person being the "one", which is why so many look to a spiritual entity as its source.

ATP said:

The Mark of the Beast is for nonbelievers only.

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Not so with the parable of the five foolish virgins. Jesus starts with talking about ten virgins, and five are wise, and five are foolish.
All the virgins are Christian: they are all waiting for the return of Jesus.

Virgin here can relate figuratively to faith, rather than literally as to sexual status.
This figuratively means that they have had no other God than the Lord, and they have not, like all of us, consummated their faith at the marriage ceremony with the Lamb, which comes in Heaven.
A contrast to this figurative scheme is the Harlot, of which there are two:
1. In Ezekiel 16, the woman Israel becomes a harlot when she turns away from God.
2. In Revelation 17, the harlot atop the beast may very well represent the Vatican and Rome.

The oil in the parable of the five foolish virgins can be both literal and figurative.
Literally, it is a commodity.
Figuratively, it represents faith.

When the five foolish virgins run out of oil, they have two things going against them. Their faith has run out, and they are panicking. Likewise, they are under the delusion that they must "make it" to the end to "make it" into Heaven. In the real sense, they are out of a commodity which serves a utilitarian function.

When the five wise virgins tell them to go out and buy some oil, they are putting the foolish to the test.
Reading this parable in the literal sense of the waning days and hours of the Great Tribulation before the Day of the Lord comes, no one may buy or sell without taking the 'Mark of the beast'.
- By going out and procuring some for their selves, a foolish endeavor at self-reliance, the five foolish virgins must have disobeyed a direct command and warning to us, the Elect, not to do that very thing.

When Jesus returns (while they are "out" buying oil) the five wise virgins go to the house where the marriage will be.
The five foolish virgins, who have turned their back on Jesus to save them, and who tried to save themselves, are denied entry to the marriage of the Lamb, which is in Heaven.

The parable of the five foolish virgins is for us.
Do not delude yourself when the Great Tribulation comes.
You cannot act to save yourself!
You may not make it to the end!
You will most likely die, as the Elect fall by the wayside.
But if you never give up your faith, laying down your life for His sake, you will gain it for all eternity.
And that statement is also right out of Scripture: Jesus said it Himself.

OSAS does not hold when the faith does not continue in the person right up into the end.

ATP said:

Uhh no. The restrainer is Michael the angel at the abomination of desolation. The word "arise" in Dan 12:1 is translated "amad" and can also mean to...

1. stand still, stop, cease moving, of moon Joshua 10:13 (J E; "" וַיִּדֹּם), sun Joshua 10:13, both, Habakkuk 3:11; of person 1 Samuel 9:27 (opposed to עָבַר), 2 Samuel 2:28 (opposed to רָדַף), עִמְדוּ עֲמֹ֫דוּ Nahum 2:9 +; stop flowing (of oil) 2 Kings 4:6; remain standing, with תַּחְתֵּינוּ Judges 7:21; 1 Samuel 14:9 etc.; of eruption in skin = remain unchanged Leviticus 13:23,28; so (without ׳ת) Leviticus 13:5,37 (all P).
2. be inactive 2 Chronicles 20:17 (opposed to לְהִלָּחֵם, + הִתְיַצְּבוּ).
3. stop, cease doing a thing 2 Kings 13:18; with מִן Genesis 29:35; Genesis 30:9 (both J), Joel 1:15.
4. tarry, delay Genesis 45:9 (E), Joshua 10:19 (J E; opposed to רָדַף), 1 Samuel 20:38 (opposed to מְהֵרָה, חוּשָׁה), +.
5. stand afar מֵרָחוֺק Exodus 20:18,21 (E), Isaiah 59:14; Psalm 38:12, ׳בְּר Psalm 10:1; ׳מִנֶּגֶד מֵר 2 Kings 2:7; stand aloof, מִנֶֹּגֶד Obadiah 11; Psalm 38:12.
6. stand (silent) Job 32:16.
7. grow flat, insipid (Gie), taste of wine Jeremiah 48:11 (figurative of Moab), or remain unchanged (so most, in that case compare 3b). — עָמְדִי Daniel 11:1b is corrupt, read probably עָמַדְתִּי, or עָמַד (מִיכָאֵל subject), join then to Daniel 10:21 and strike out Daniel 11:1a; so Bev Behrm MartiKau.

Why does Michael stop moving? So God can send them a strong delusion 2 Thess 2:10-12 NIV. It is clear that there are angelic powers over world empires and leaders and nobody is going to come to power in the land of Israel if the angel of Israel (Michael) prevents them.

Dan 12:1 NIV “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

2 Thess 2:6-12 NIV And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Rev 12:6-12 NIV The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days. 7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. 11 They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death. 12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short."


Strike three Phone. Time to go back to the dugout. How can a believer receive the Mark of the Beast when they've already received the Mark of the Holy Spirit...

John 6:27 NIV Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."

1 Cor 9:2 NIV Even though I may not be an apostle to others, surely I am to you! For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.

2 Cor 1:21-22 NIV Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 NIV And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

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If Paul told the Thessalonians that Michael was the Restrainer when he previously visited them (2 Thessalonians 2:5 KJV) then why did he choose to remain so mysterious and secretive to them about this "startling revelation" in his letter to them, and in doing so encourage millions of Christians about how powerfully the celestial boot of Michael was choking the neck of Antichrist?

The reason he refused to pen the identity of him was because he didn't name Michael, but the ROMAN EMPIRE and didn't dare write that in the letter. The ECF all agree that the Restrainer was the Roman Empire, but the Jesuits claimed it was some Agent of Holiness, and only Jesuit sympathizers do so today.

Marcus O'Reillius said:

Anyone can say who the one is; no one can prove it though.

Pinning the tail on the donkey in this case is just as much idle speculation as those people who will tell you that they know who the anti-Christ is.

The use of the neutral gender in one case goes against a person being the "one", which is why so many look to a spiritual entity as its source.

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To claim that the God who directs His most fearful warning against those He loves and desperately wants to save - to not take the Mark of the Beast - would so shroud the identity of Antichrist in mystery so that it would be almost impossible to discern the Beast's identity and thus fail to discern his Mark, is to misrepresent the loving, just character of God to the nth degree.

The problem is, as always, not an inability to discern truth, but willful ignorance.

Phoneman777 said:

point to the Roman Empire as Paul's Restrainer?
demands you accept the Antichrist of Historisicm - the Papacy, which arose after the Roman Empire was taken out of the way.

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Back to conspiracy theories and other such kookiness...

Everybody wants to say who it is. Whoever your unsourced allegation is, was not there either, and is just as much in the dark as you are, playing psychiatrist behind a keyboard. (Man up? Don't make me laugh.)

Earth to phoneman: Rome was not destroyed centuries later because it has two legs.
In fact, there have been resurgent Roman Empires, "Holy" and not, even unto recently: Hitler's third Reich.

You can call your eschatology anything you want: it's still Preterism with a different label. Not only can you not discern what is written in the Bible, nor does your grasp of history fit your wild theory; you don't even know what you're saying is exactly what your fighting against.

"Demands". You are in no position to dictate anything when you can't show the least of it.

Phoneman777 said:

Gabriel's mission was to open Daniel's understanding of the "vision" he'd received in chapter 8 - y'know, the one that he'd sought an explanation from those who could not offer one. "I'm here to explain the vision, Daniel...Seventy Weeks are determined........"

Yes, Jesus, the God of the Old Testament Who promised the New Covenant, came to confirm that New Covenant in His flesh. Be a part of that Covenant and allow the Holy Spirit to write His law on your heart.

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1. LIAR. Gabriel does NOT say he was there to explain a vision which happened weeks or even months previously.

Dan 9:22 - He came to give him insight and understanding in response to his prayers!

2. YOU say Jesus confirmed the Covenant with many for one 'week'.
I had to drag it out of you that the ONLY Covenant Jesus made was the New Covenant.
And you are so dull that you cannot comprehend the intellectual dichotomy trying to hold both statements together then means!

IF Jesus confirmed the covenant of Daniel 9:27 -
And since that covenant only lasts for the last 'week' of the seventy 'sevens' -
AND you want to say it goes back to the start of His Ministry (which it doesn't)
THEN you are saying the New Covenant Jesus made has run out.

Of course it hasn't, but that won't stop you from saying the New Covenant Jesus made is the one in Daniel 9:27.

Of course you also repeatedly (now) say Gabriel said things he never said too.

(Let's see if phoneman will ever correct himself, or if he remains delusional insisting Gabriel came to explain the vision during the time of Belshazzar.)