Trial run... Or the real thing?

Brakelite2 said:

Multiple Stanford Medical Professors Question If COVID-19 Is Really ‘As Deadly As They Say ‘ - LewRockwell LewRockwell.com

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There's another reason why some folks and even myself think this virus is not that deadly.......the virus death counters add in other causes of death as being from the Corona virus...or they make 'living people' dead for their stats.....and they do it a lot......the official numbers I suspect are really much lower...

Here's what I mean and why I am stating this case....

And I have videos from NYC not added here, of many mash tents and the refrig. semis all empty and no medical teams...where are the patients and nurses???

APAK

Dcopymope said:

The day of the lord doesn't immediately precede the day the lord returns, its only meant to be a sign that God is about to unleash his wrath. His actual return doesn't happen until the seventh trumpet many chapters later, just before the seven vials judgement. This is all crystal clear from the text, and disproves any notion of a pre tribulation rapture. Remember, God said that one of the reasons why he made the stars and planets was to be for signs. This is why God set up the Day of the Lord this way, so that there is no mistaking on our part of knowing when we are in the last days. There won't be any mistaking it for the unbelieving world either, since they will be pissing their pants, trying to hide like little punks from the face of God in the sky. I wouldn't be surprised at all if there won't be any professed "atheists" left afterward.

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Ah, hmmm. "The Day of the Lord doesn't immediately precede the Day of the Lords return". I feel I must question the soundness of that sentence, especially in light of what the bible teaches.

Matthew 24:29–31
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The Olivet Discourse is the most recognized passage about the end times...that is, outside of apocalyptic literature (Revelation), that gives us a decent grasp on events. This passage tells us that after a period of tribulation we can expect cosmic events to immediately precede Christs appearance on the clouds. As he appears, he will send his angels out with a trumpet call to gather his elect to him. As the people of earth see all this, they will mourn.

We can find other passages in scripture to back up these events:

1 Corinthians 15:52
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

2 Thessalonians 2:1–9
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, [who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders,

We can see, especially in 2 Thess 2, that the 'Day of the Lord', corresponds with the 'coming of the Lord' AND the final judgement of the wicked. And also, in the below passages, the same thing....they speak of Christ's coming and the judgement upon the wicked...even the renewing of the earth!

1 Corinthians 15:23–28
But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.


2 Peter 3:4–10
They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.


As far as the judgements in Revelation goes...that's a huge topic that would take an entire post by itself...or even a thread. However...just to let you know where I stand on it...I believe the visions of Revelation are given in the form of recapitulation. In other words, there is a few main points, main visions, then they are shown again and again from different angles...from earth, from heaven, that sort of thing. We see the...ah...ferocity...of them increasing...leading to the crescendo of the book...the destruction of Satan and death and the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven. One of the reasons we can know we have recapitulation within the book is because we see, at the end of each of the 'judgements', a theophany. The cataclysmic natural events and fearful responses from the 'peoples of the nations' in the face of God.

Revelation 6:12–17
When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

Revelation 11:15, 19
Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”...Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.

Revelation 16:17–21
The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as there had never been since man was on the earth, so great was that earthquake. The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath. And every island fled away, and no mountains were to be found. And great hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, fell from heaven on people; and they cursed God for the plague of the hail, because the plague was so severe.

We see the description of Christ's return in Chapter 19, but we can see in these previous chapters that the peoples of the earth see his face and the face of the One on the Throne...the anger of their wrath. That the world 'has become' the Kingdom of the Lord and of his Christ, forever. And a great announcement from the Throne that it was "done"! And that all these things are accompanied by cosmic disturbances that Jesus tells us in Matthew will announce his return. And, of course, we know from the OT that these things, the lightning, the peals of thunder, were classic signs of a theophany.

So...all that to say....I believe the bible speaks of cosmic events, but they will precede Christs return only by moments. And that when the bible speaks of the Day of the Lord, yes, its speaking of judgement, but its also speaking of the day Christ returns and brings it. It is one and the same.

Naomi25 said:

Ah, hmmm. "The Day of the Lord doesn't immediately precede the Day of the Lords return". I feel I must question the soundness of that sentence, especially in light of what the bible teaches.

Matthew 24:29–31
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The Olivet Discourse is the most recognized passage about the end times...that is, outside of apocalyptic literature (Revelation), that gives us a decent grasp on events. This passage tells us that after a period of tribulation we can expect cosmic events to immediately precede Christs appearance on the clouds. As he appears, he will send his angels out with a trumpet call to gather his elect to him. As the people of earth see all this, they will mourn.

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You're getting your interpretation of the end times events from people who only knew it in bits and pieces. This is where the problem starts to occur when people quote from Paul, and Luke, and old testament prophets and Jesus Christs Olivet Discourse, and is why revelation absolutely has to be understood in full. Jesus did not receive full revelation from God about the end times until well after his time on earth, so he only knew of it in part, not in full. His speech is not meant to be considered a 100% accurate blow by blow interpretation of the end times. Revelation is the only book we have that does exactly that. That is why it is called revelation, because it reveals in full what actually happens.

So when Revelation describes the last trumpet as opposed to how its described in previous books, just like its description of the Day of the Lord itself, the seventh trumpet is not described as the immediate translation or resurrection of the saints and the return of the Lord either. The seventh trumpet is actually the introduction of the "third woe", the last 3 1/2 years of the Great Tribulation period. This is made very clear on no uncertain terms at the very beginning of chapter 11 when John measures the temple that the "abomination of desolation" as Jesus calls him will stand in and declare himself God, after which all hell really breaks loose, both in heaven and earth. Allow scripture to demonstrate.

The temple:

(Revelation 11:1-2) "And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. {2} But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."......

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After the temple is measured, and the two witnesses are killed, comes the last trumpet, and the last 3 1/2 years of the Great Tribulation.

The last Trumpet and the "third woe":

(Revelation 11:14-19) "The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. {15} And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. {16} And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, {17} Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. {18} And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. {19} And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."

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The last 3 1/2 years kicks off with war in heaven:

(Revelation 12:1-6) "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: {2} And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. {3} And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. {4} And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. {5} And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. {6} And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days."

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(Matthew 24:15-21) "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand {16} Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: {17} Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: {18} Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. {19} And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! {20} But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: {21} For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

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(Revelation 12:7-12) "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, {8} And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. {9} And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. {10} And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. {11} And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. {12} Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.

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The last Woe:

(Revelation 12:12-17) "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. {13} And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. {14} And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. {15} And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. {16} And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. {17} And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

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To drive the point home, I'll end it with a little scripture from Rev 13:

The Beast:

(Revelation 13:5-7) "And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. {6} And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. {7} And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

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See, this is how the end times truly plays out according to revelation. If this is not understood before the time comes, it wouldn't surprise me if many Christians will be in a world of hurt. To call it a rude awakening is a bit of an understatement, seeing what many Christians are expecting to happen that clearly does not line up with the book that reveals it all blow by blow.

Enoch111 said:

I'm just sorry to see that President Donald Trump failed -- right from the start -- to see this as another impeachment effort by the virulent Democrats and the Left-Liberal media.

He also failed to shut down flights to and from China immediately (and had Trudeau in Canada to do the same or face serious consequences). The southern border should have also been closed at that time. Now Mexico has shut down its border to Americans! Imagine.

News about this virus was beginning to filter through in December. And that was the time when he should have sat down with some clear-headed and loyal people (whether or not they were in his administration, e.g. Rush Limbaugh, Ben Carson, David Clarke, Chuck Norris, VP Pence etc) and developed a COMPREHENSIVE plan to address every issue that might arise (including a draft bill for economic relief which was succinct and free from pork barrel politics, which should have gone to the Senate in preparation for that eventuality). What we have seen all along are ad hoc decisions, and also the use of people like Dr. Fauci etc. who were actually a part of the Deep State from way back (Fauci was a good buddy of Hillary Clinton).

Following that he should have gone on national TV and presented his plan to the people as an Executive Order (which would also ensure that no constitutional liberties were violated by local, state, or federal governments and agencies).

There should have also been a separate White House web site to focus strictly on the pandemic and keep everyone updated with facts and figures (as opposed to MSM propaganda). Indeed he should have encouraged his friends years ago to set up a separate TV network which would bring proper news to the world apart from FOX and all the other Left-liberal hacks.

Furthermore his Executive Order should have included a warning to the media, that if they failed to focus on the facts, and attempted to create panic and engage in Trump bashing, they would be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. The press has never been put on notice for their destructive work and their sedition against the President. He should have also demanded the resignation of Pelosi, Schumer, the Director General of W.H.O., and a few other traitors who were working for the Chinese government from way back.

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To be perfectly honest I'm not following how America is dealing with the pandemic...although I have spared a thought to whether this will change the outcome of the elections in November. I didn't think the Democrats could possibly win considering the candidates they had lined up, but it might depend on how this virus thing goes and how Trump does respond to it. If America suffers terribly...and even if Trump does all he can, the people might use him as a political scapegoat.
I've been more intent on following the policies of the Government here in Australia...and I'm surprised at how quickly the Government has just gone "okay everyone, we're just going to give everyone a wage and take control of everything". They've bought out the Cops and the Army to make sure compliance is happening with the measures they've put in place.
I'll tell you this...I don't see the world emerging from this without fairly serious economic repercussions. Maybe even political one as well...depending on how the Governments do and how the people handle the crackdowns...and probably how bad it does actually get.
It's just as well we know the Author of it all!

Dcopymope said:

You're getting your interpretation of the end times events from people who only knew it in bits and pieces. This is where the problem starts to occur when people quote from Paul, and Luke, and old testament prophets and Jesus Christs Olivet Discourse, and is why revelation absolutely has to be understood in full. Jesus did not receive full revelation from God about the end times until well after his time on earth, so he only knew of it in part, not in full. His speech is not meant to be considered a 100% accurate blow by blow interpretation of the end times. Revelation is the only book we have that does exactly that. That is why it is called revelation, because it reveals in full what actually happens.

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Okay....two things: I think that's the first time I've ever been told that listening to Paul, Luke and Christ was "getting my end times interpretation from people who only knew it in bits and pieces".
What they knew, or didn't know, is not really up to us to guess. All that matters is what we find in scripture, yes? Which brings me to point number 2.
It's considered a breach in hermeneutical principles to look at and interpret NT passages on end times by what we find in Revelation. The reason for this? Revelation is an Apocalyptic book, it's firmly symbolic literature. You're trading the clear, didactic texts of the Gospels and Epistles, for the symbolic, and that's a no-no.
Revelation is a rich, amazing book that can be understood, no doubt, but it's images and symbols are drawn from the OT, which again, is interpreted in light of NT revelation. In other words, it's just shoddy work to be starting at Revelation and then letting it tell you what Paul or Luke or Christ (In the Olivet Discourse) meant. Together they can build a rich, promising tapestry, but you have to start with the didactic texts first.
And Revelation, as it's called...is not called that because we were finally provided with a step by step guide for the 'end times'. It's an "unveiling"...and that's exactly what it is. Read through it again and take note at how many times John (and through him us) are taken behind the veil of this world...taken to see the true battle that has been, and will, take place. Paul tells us that our battle is not against this world, against flesh. But against powers, spirits, principalities. Revelation shows us this battle, this cosmic struggle that has been happening since the moment mankind rebelled until the moment Satan is cast into the lake of fire. That is the true story of the bible, after all. We see it in Genesis, when God promises Eve that through her seed would come the crushing one....ah! The battle commences! A people is chosen, the war taken up! The struggle continues through Christ's victory on the cross right up until his return. Revelation shows us this battle, through the age, from heavens perspective, from our perspective. It gives hope to those suffering, how can it not, when we know we stand behind the one who has orchestrated victory from the dawn of time?

So, no...no I don't believe 'Revelation' was tossed on the end of our bible after Christ ascended because he suddenly was awarded access to the important stuff we had to know...stuff that he couldn't tell his Disciples via the Holy Spirit. Stuff that he couldn't, had he chosen to, accessed when on earth...after all, he could have commanded armies of Heaven to save him while human...he just chose not to. If he 'didn't know the timing' of his return, it was because he didn't need to, we didn't need to, and so he chose not to access it.
Revelation reveals to us much more than a palm-readers "you will meet a tall dark handsome man in your future". It shows us the Throne of God.

So when Revelation describes the last trumpet as opposed to how its described in previous books, just like its description of the Day of the Lord itself, the seventh trumpet is not described as the immediate translation or resurrection of the saints and the return of the Lord either.

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So...essentially you're saying that Revelation changes its mind on what the last trumpet means? Or..at the very least, you're saying that there are many 'last trumps', just as there are, apparently, a couple 'days of the Lord'.
I don't see the sense in that, no matter if I DO decide to let Revelation tell me how to read everything else.

The seventh trumpet is actually the introduction of the "third woe", the last 3 1/2 years of the Great Tribulation period. This is made very clear on no uncertain terms at the very beginning of chapter 11 when John measures the temple that the "abomination of desolation" as Jesus calls him will stand in and declare himself God, after which all hell really breaks loose, both in heaven and earth. Allow scripture to demonstrate.

The temple:

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Did you know that at times in the OT when God calls for a measuring to be done, it's a symbol of protection? It's a marking out of spiritual protection. For example, Zech 2:1-5.
The Two Witnesses of Revelation are symbolic of faithful Churches. We know this as we are told in Rev 1 that the churches are the lampstands. And then we're told that the Two Witnesses are also the two lampstands in Chapter 10. Interestingly, there were only two churches who were found to be completely faithful, especially in the face of persecution in the first Chapters. We then see in Chapter 11 that the 'temple' is being measured. The alter and inner temple are left safe, but the 'outer court' is left to be trampled....it is NOT measured. Meaning that the Churches who are left to Witness to the nations during this time....spiritually they are protected, just as Christ promised...not a hair on their head will perish. But physically? They might suffer, they might die. But not the second death.

After the temple is measured, and the two witnesses are killed, comes the last trumpet, and the last 3 1/2 years of the Great Tribulation.

The last Trumpet and the "third woe":

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The problem with the "7th" trumpet ushering in the last 3.5 years, is what we actually see AT the 7th trumpet:

Revelation 11:15–18
Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.” And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying,
“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
who is and who was,
for you have taken your great power
and begun to reign.
The nations raged,
but your wrath came,
and the time for the dead to be judged,
and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints,
and those who fear your name,
both small and great,
and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.”

You HAVE taken your power and began to REIGN. Your wrath CAME and JUDGED the DEAD, REWARDED the saints.
Tell me this: how can another 3.5 years still be if the Kingdom of this world HAS BECOME the Kingdom of Christ. If he has began to reign here, if he has judged the dead and rewarded his saints? If he has destroyed the destroyers of the earth? How does that even remotely work?

Dcopymope said:

The last 3 1/2 years kicks off with war in heaven:

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Again....a problem. Revelation 12 is clearly talking about the birth of the Messiah. Lasting, really, to his death, when he is 'snatched up to heaven'. How on EARTH, do you then make that about the last 3.5 years of the Tribulation?
And Matt 24, "let he who is in the field not go back for his cloak"...? However we break down that passage, that particular part....is CLEARLY speaking of the 70AD destruction of the temple. We can know this for two absolute reasons: one - the Disciples asked Jesus about THAT particular temples destruction, not a future one. And two - the corresponding passage in Luke actually speaks of the Roman army wrapping itself around Jerusalem. But anyway you slice it, this AOD is NOT speaking of the last 3.5 years of history.
And Rev 12:7-12? Listen to Christ:
Luke 10:17–20
The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!” And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you. Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”

Sounds a little familiar, doesn't it? Satan fell when the gospel was unleashed upon this earth. Christ came and bound the strongman, and began plundering his house. Satan can kill us...have us killed, but he can't stop the gospel, stop the truth and freedom of it from sweeping the globe, nor he he stop the fact that killing us only releases us into the arms of our Lord.

The last Woe:

To drive the point home, I'll end it with a little scripture from Rev 13:

The Beast:

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I'm sorry, but those passages don't really provide an "aha" moment. They tell me what history already does, and what my bible tells me to expect. It tells me that Satan has always hated the people of God. And he will do whatever he can do crush, destroy and kill them. To incite the people of the world to do just that. Makes you wonder why he hasn't succeeded yet, doesn't it? I mean, it's not like he hasn't had enough time, or had plenty of people who would have been solidly on his side. Maybe Satan is a really bad organizer? He just can't get his apocalypse together? Forgive the whimsy. My point is...Satan is bound...he cannot stop the gospel...the people who carry the gospel, not completely. He won't be given that chance, not until the very end. I expect things will get dark for us then...that time when the outer courts have not been measured.

See, this is how the end times truly plays out according to revelation. If this is not understood before the time comes, it wouldn't surprise me if many Christians will be in a world of hurt. To call it a rude awakening is a bit of an understatement, seeing what many Christians are expecting to happen that clearly does not line up with the book that reveals it all blow by blow.

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Forgive me, but...just because I see Revelation as reading a very different way than you, doesn't mean I'm not ready. As a matter of fact, I think even those Christians who are perhaps least ready...those who think they're getting a ride out of here before it gets bad, will still be ready. And I think that because we've all got the same Spirit. He's not going to stand with you or me more because we might have had a better understanding at what's barrelling towards us. We are all his. Just as you would stand before all your children...perhaps even more the ones who needed it most...he will not abandon a single one who is really his. That is Christ's promise to us, and I believe him.

Naomi25 said:

You HAVE taken your power and began to REIGN. Your wrath CAME and JUDGED the DEAD, REWARDED the saints.
Tell me this: how can another 3.5 years still be if the Kingdom of this world HAS BECOME the Kingdom of Christ. If he has began to reign here, if he has judged the dead and rewarded his saints? If he has destroyed the destroyers of the earth? How does that even remotely work?

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This is Written, as is much of the prophesies, in a past tense, so as to reinforce its truth and its sure fulfilment at some future time.
Revelation 11:15-18 is not fulfilled yet; Jesus does not reign on earth yet and we await His terrible Day of fiery wrath, the world changer that will commence all the graphically described prophesies about the end times.

Naomi25 said:

Again....a problem. Revelation 12 is clearly talking about the birth of the Messiah. Lasting, really, to his death, when he is 'snatched up to heaven'. How on EARTH, do you then make that about the last 3.5 years of the Tribulation?

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Revelation 12:1-5 is about Jesus. But from verse 6 to 17 it is about His offspring and what happens during the final 1260 days before He Returns to commence His Millennium reign.
This prophecy is very informative and relates to what Daniel 11:29-45 describes.

Keraz said:

This is Written, as is much of the prophesies, in a past tense, so as to reinforce its truth and its sure fulfilment at some future time.
Revelation 11:15-18 is not fulfilled yet; Jesus does not reign on earth yet and we await His terrible Day of fiery wrath, the world changer that will commence all the graphically described prophesies about the end times.

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I'm not saying it has happened yet. That is exactly what we currently pray for in the Lords Prayer "your kingdom come, your will be done on earth, as it is in heaven".
But the point of the text is that it is showing the time it WILL happen. When every knee on earth will bow and acknowledge Christ as Lord and Saviour...be that with joy or terror in their hearts. And, I was pointing out to Dcopymope that at this point in the text, we cannot say another 3.5 years is left after what is being described. No matter how we view the chronological order of Revelation, when viewing Chap 11: 15-18, we must saying that at THAT time, Christ HAS come and judged both just and unjust. Which means there cannot be another 3.5 years of Tribulation to go.

Revelation 12:1-5 is about Jesus. But from verse 6 to 17 it is about His offspring and what happens during the final 1260 days before He Returns to commence His Millennium reign.
This prophecy is very informative and relates to what Daniel 11:29-45 describes.

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Actually, the woman's offspring. Those that 'keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus'...that would be us. And, how long has Satan been persecuting Christ's followers? How long has he been in a rage against those who name Jesus? Just the last 1260 days of this world? No. Since we began proclaiming Christ, since our naming of him began having power over him, and since the gospel started making advances into his 'kingdom'. Numbers in Revelation are almost always symbolic. 3.5 is half of seven. Seven is the number of perfection, completion. 3.5 simply means that Satans war against us will never win, will never see completion. He will 'bruise our heel', you might say, but through Christ, we will have triumph over him, even in death.

Naomi25 said:

Which means there cannot be another 3.5 years of Tribulation to go.

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I agree. There must be at least 7 years, I believe a minimum of 10 years, from now until Jesus Returns.
This allows for all that is prophesied to happen during the end times, to take place.

Naomi25 said:

Actually, the woman's offspring. Those that 'keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus'...that would be us.

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Technically speaking; The 'Womans' grandson, all the faithful believers in Christ.

Naomi25 said:

And, how long has Satan been persecuting Christ's followers?

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Satan has done a lot of harm to Christians and the world, thru demonic influence and temptations presented to all.
But we see that 1260 days before Jesus Returns, in Revelation 12:9, that Satan is literally kicked out of the Spiritual realm and in Revelation 13:2, we are told he takes possession of a man, who will force everyone to worship him.
Only when Jesus Returns, will he be chained up. Revelation 20:1-2

Your making of these specific times and details into symbols, is not warranted and nullifies the whole Prophetic Word.

@Naomi25

Its quite clear just by comparing all the prophecies leading up to the book of revelation that none of them had the full story on end times events. This has been demonstrated in my post. Now that we have the full breakdown of what actually happens with the book of revelation, all other prophecies preceding it should be considered as nothing more than reference points at best. And for Revelation 12 to be anything other than strictly end times prophecy, the 1260 day time period John lays out for all this to happen would have to be stretched to 2000 years, if you want it to fit within the timeline of the birth of Jesus. This would also mean that the "woman" is in fact Mary, which I explain cannot be the case in my thread linked below. This is simple logic, the zeroes and ones don't add up.

As I explain in my thread below, the discussion of the "woman", meaning Israel, the bride, not Mary, birthing the messiah is just about where any similarities end, and the disconnect begin. Really, I've said all that needs to be said about this, because time always tells the truth when it comes down to it. When the "Day of the Lord" comes, Christians will wise up very quickly when they see they are still here afterward, and much of what they believed is supposed to happen is wrong. I can 110% guarantee you that there will for sure be a very rude awakening for many Christians, especially for the pre-trib rapture believers. We're going to experience firsthand all seven trumpets, the true power of God. So we aren't going anywhere until just before the pouring out of the seven plagues/vials.

Link: The Woman in Revelation 12

Keraz said:

I agree. There must be at least 7 years, I believe a minimum of 10 years, from now until Jesus Returns.
This allows for all that is prophesied to happen during the end times, to take place.

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Ah. I think, perhaps, that you have misunderstood me.
Rev 11:15-18 lists a few things clearly. At that time, Christ will have bought his heavenly kingdom to earth. The 'Kingdom of the earth' will have become 'the Kingdom or our Lord and his Christ'. We see that although the 'nations raged', they, and the dead, were destroyed and judged for 'being the destroyers of the earth'. We also see that the Saints, prophets and those who feared his name were rewarded.
It is clearly speaking of the resurrection and judgement, of the both Matt 25 and Rev 20. This is describing the end of this age, there will not be 3.5 years after it, or 7 or 10.
And, I don't think Revelation, or Chapter 11, tells us specifically how many years there will be between now, and that time when Christ comes to judge the living and dead. So, forgive me, but I am just unsure of what you're speaking.

Technically speaking; The 'Womans' grandson, all the faithful believers in Christ.

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Well, the most 'technical' I like to get, is where my bible goes. And my bible says 'offspring of the woman'. So I'm happy to leave it at that. Besides, I don't think it's a 'second' generation thing...it's more like a Sarah and Hagar thing. Israel was chosen first, it was they that bought forth the Messiah. But the bastard children were welcomed in by the promised child.

Satan has done a lot of harm to Christians and the world, thru demonic influence and temptations presented to all.
But we see that 1260 days before Jesus Returns, in Revelation 12:9, that Satan is literally kicked out of the Spiritual realm and in Revelation 13:2, we are told he takes possession of a man, who will force everyone to worship him.
Only when Jesus Returns, will he be chained up. Revelation 20:1-2

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Well, that's one way of looking at it.

Your making of these specific times and details into symbols, is not warranted and nullifies the whole Prophetic Word.

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Yes, silly of me to read symbols into a book choc-a-block full of them, isn't it? The thing I find most consistently hilarious, is the people who get the vapors at 'symbols' and 'non-literal interpretation', but then turn around and liberally sprinkle those exact things throughout Revelation itself when they choose and the rest of the bible as well, to suit their purpose. Even hardened Dispensationalists recognize the meaning behind certain numbers, the purpose of types and shadows in scripture; the use of symbols to paint spiritual truths. It just better be in line with their own, "literal" interpretation. And I've yet to bump up against someone and their own 'unique' views who doesn't do the same thing. They point and accuse of eisegesis, of man's made up doctrines and of disavowing the seriousness of scripture...and then turn around and do the very same thing they've slapped us over the wrist for doing.
So...sure, waggle your finger at me if you must, but I'm largely unaffected.

Dcopymope said:

@Naomi25

Its quite clear just by comparing all the prophecies leading up to the book of revelation that none of them had the full story on end times events. This has been demonstrated in my post. Now that we have the full breakdown of what actually happens with the book of revelation, all other prophecies preceding it should be considered as nothing more than reference points at best. And for Revelation 12 to be anything other than strictly end times prophecy, the 1260 day time period John lays out for all this to happen would have to be stretched to 2000 years, if you want it to fit within the timeline of the birth of Jesus. This would also mean that the "woman" is in fact Mary, which I explain cannot be the case in my thread linked below. This is simple logic, the zeroes and ones don't add up.

As I explain in my thread below, the discussion of the "woman", meaning Israel, the bride, not Mary, birthing the messiah is just about where any similarities end, and the disconnect begin. Really, I've said all that needs to be said about this, because time always tells the truth when it comes down to it. When the "Day of the Lord" comes, Christians will wise up very quickly when they see they are still here afterward, and much of what they believed is supposed to happen is wrong. I can 110% guarantee you that there will for sure be a very rude awakening for many Christians, especially for the pre-trib rapture believers. We're going to experience firsthand all seven trumpets, the true power of God. So we aren't going anywhere until just before the pouring out of the seven plagues/vials.

Link: The Woman in Revelation 12

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So, let me get this straight...you'd rather believe that the numbers...which can be demonstrated to be symbolic throughout Revelation, by the way...must be accurate, above and beyond EVERYTHING else in that passage. Even above the very clear fact that WHAT OTHER child could possibly fit the bill when we're talking about a "male child who will rule all the nations with a rod of iron", which we know from Psalm 2 has to be Messiah. Who else could be 'caught up to God and his Throne'? Who else would be worthy? It has to be Jesus.

And no...I don't think the woman is Mary. I think it is Israel. Israel bought forth the Messiah...that was her purpose.
And yes...I expect many Christians will be shocked at what they must endure. But I don't necessarily think that means they will fall away from Jesus.

Gates, W.H.O. John Hopkins etc conveniently ran a tabletop simulation on October 2019 and planned months before with a Corona virus that killed 33+ million people and killed economies...how convenient!!...

Event 201: The Most Serious Conspiracy Theory Regarding Covid-19

By Daniyal Sohail
Posted on March 20, 2020


Social media can your mind toggle on things you don’t need to worry about. Conspiracy theories have been flooding, however, “Event 201” is the most intriguing of them all!


Event 201 the start of World-War III, or not?
A biological war per se, destroying the entire world in 18 months. Statisticians have been making claims that by the end of 2020, 60% of the entire population will have COVID-19!

Three major conspiracies are circulating, which I think should be discussed.

The famous book The Eyes of Darkness by Dean Koontz. In which he mentions a virus called Wuhan-400, which will eradicate the entire world.


Source: John Hopkins Center for Health Security

Then, of course, we have the notion that American soldiers brought the virus to China. Although, Donald Trump keeps referring to the virus as Chinese-Virus, which is hilarious till you realize!

However, Event 201 is the most mind-boggling of them all. Can you imagine world leaders meeting to discuss how to prevent a virus outbreak that can kill 65 million people, 3 months prior?

Did you know that Bill Gates predicted that 33 million people can die from Coronavirus in 250 days? Exactly!

In October 2019, Bill Gates and other world leaders (including Whitehouse officials), were part of an event called “Event 201.” Moreover, the event was held by John Hopkins Centre for Health Security.


Source: Times

Well-known pharmaceutical giants and Pentagon leaders discussed the effects of a virus that could eliminate 60 million people in 18 months.

Only two people can make such accurate predictions, either Nostradamus or the person who created the virus. Nonetheless, the timing could not more uncanny. 3 months and the coarse of the entire world is shifted.

Nonetheless, a study this expensive must’ve had a sponsor. No individual can do this without a tremendous back; one thing is for sure that either some government of some giant pharmaceutical is involved in the outbreak of COVID-19.

Globalization is the name of Salvation!
Is the US responsible for the outbreak of pandemic COVID-19? Speculations and theories support the fact that the US will benefit from it most.

However, many writers believe that the United States has already found the cure of the virus and is waiting for the fattest bid.


Source: John Hopkins Center for Health Security

Nonetheless, the lives of innocents are at stake and governments seem to be useless right now. One more thing, event 201 has left a question unanswered; why was the cure not made simultaneously?

In World-War II, whenever the Germans would test a virus or a biological weapon, they would make the anti-dot simultaneously.

Moreover, one thing is for sure, the creator of coronavirus did not create it as an experiment. Being the perfect example of a biological weapon, millions of lives are at risk.

Claims made by John Hopkins professor, that there are more than 500,000 in the US alone is giving people goosebumps.

Anyhow, Event 201, can not be proven since theorists don’t have enough evidence to support their claims.

Let it be a biological weapon, a conspiracy or a solid move to destabilize the world. All we pray for is the innocent lives that will be caught in the middle.


--------------------

do not discard this Oct 2019 virus simulation (Event 201) as a separate event from what we are experiencing today.....take it seriously until proven as just a coincidence ...

Blessings to all that out Lord....

APAK

An official notice of Event 201 is below...

Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation Host Pandemic Exercise and Livestream


Underscoring immediate need for global public-private cooperation to mitigate severe world-wide economic and societal impacts of pandemics

October 16, 2019 03:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time
NEW YORK--(BUSINESS WIRE)--The Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security, with the World Economic Forum and the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, will host Event 201, a multimedia global pandemic exercise on Friday, Oct. 18, 2019, in New York City. The public may register and participate in the simultaneous virtual exercise in English, 8:50 a.m.-12:30 p.m. EDT at centerforhealthsecurity.org/event201/. The exercise underscores the need for global public-private cooperation to mitigate economic and societal impacts of severe pandemics.

#Event201 pandemic exercise and livestream this Friday! Follow the story as global business and government leaders make critical response decisions in real-time. More info and register at centerforhealthsecurity.org/event201/. Hosts @JHSPH_CHS @wef & @gatesfoundation

Tweet this
In recent years, the world has seen a growing number of epidemic events, about 200 per year, which strain limited resources. A large global pandemic would be disruptive to health, economies, and society. Economic studies show that pandemics could be the cause of an average annual economic loss of 0.7% of global GDP—or $570 billion.

Event 201, played by 15 leaders of businesses, governments, and public health, will illustrate realistic policy problems that must be addressed under pressure during a pandemic. At the video-driven exercise, players will be presented with a scenario that reveals unresolved and controversial policy and economic issues that could be solved with sufficient political will, financial investment, and attention.

“In addition to challenging health and health systems, pandemics can cause severe cascading economic and societal consequences,” said Tom Inglesby, MD, director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security at the Bloomberg School of Public Health. “Neither governments nor private industries alone can adequately respond to a severe pandemic; they must work together. We’ve designed Event 201 to engage leaders in compelling ways to help them understand the decisions needed to prepare for and respond to biological threats.”

“Outbreaks of infectious disease are inevitable, but the economic damage they cause is not,” said Ryan Morhard, project lead for Global Health Security at the World Economic Forum. “Sustained attention from a broad multistakeholder coalition is needed in advance of a severe pandemic to save lives and minimize economic and societal consequences.”

Chris Elias, president of global development at the Gates Foundation, noted that “Event 201 and its predecessor simulations like Clade X are crucial tools to understand not only what is needed to effectively respond to global public health crises, but also the consequences of what happens when we are not prepared.”

The exercise is supported by funding from the Open Philanthropy Project.

More information is at centerforhealthsecurity.org/event201, #Event201, @JHSPH_CHS, @wef and @gatesfoundation.

EVENT 201 IS A FICTIONAL EXERCISE AND DISEASE

Editor’s note: RSVP for a confirmed seat, information about camera and recording limitations; access same day to video, graphics, audio, photos and interviews. See Event 201 media advisory and other materials.


Contacts
Media:
Carol Miller
Communications Strategic Lead, Event 201
Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security
[email protected] 1-202-306-0130

Until all politicians,the White House staff, and all local leaders stay 6ft/2m apart and wear face masks that I may consider it?....

Blessings..

APAK.....

APAK said:

Gates, W.H.O. John Hopkins etc conveniently ran a tabletop simulation on October 2019 and planned months before with a Corona virus that killed 33+ million people and killed economies...how convenient!!...

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Several thousand years ago, the Bible Prophets wrote down what God told them His plans were for the world.
Believe them or believe the current world string pullers?

This is for sure; the world now faces dramatic change and it will only be those who stand firm in their faith and trust in their Maker, who will survive to see the final outcome.

Keraz said:

Several thousand years ago, the Bible Prophets wrote down what God told them His plans were for the world.
Believe them or believe the current world string pullers?

This is for sure; the world now faces dramatic change and it will only be those who stand firm in their faith and trust in their Maker, who will survive to see the final outcome.

Click to expand...

Keraz....what are you saying? So what am I believing in again? Do I present a decision point to the reader: believe man ('them') or believe God and his plans somewhere in my words? I missed this conclusion that you thought I made. I was only suggesting that there is potential of some type of evil foul play here with this current virus pandemic. Nothing more and certainly not even addressing the plans of God at all. Please elaborate on what I'm supposedly believing in. Thanks

APAK

Just the flu...or maybe just a bad version of the flu....video too large to upload...

Brakelite2 said:

I am certain the world will never be the same again. Superficially perhaps, for a short time, but you know the verse. "And they cried peace and safety, but sudden destruction..."

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I was sure it had to begin, or be manifest in January specifically.

Because of a modern day decree to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem in January 1969.

Isaac Newton was talking about it.

The "compass of a Jubilee".

If the "darkened sun" of January 2019 was the equivalent of 27AD, when Jesus read from the Isaiah 61 scroll to begin His ministry, January 2020 ended the declaration of the YEAR of the Lord's favor in our time. This was the secondary application of Daniel 9, 62 and 7 weeks until Messiah the Prince.

It seems peculiar in 27AD Jesus read: "to proclaim freedom for the captives", and now so many prisons are releasing inmates in 2020 because of the corona virus spread. I count 27 AD to be the end of 62 and 7 weeks. I count January 2019 to be the end of 62 and 7 weeks also from the two modern day decrees.

This will be confusing to the SDAs.

But I'm very sure that this is it.

I'm just now trying to figure out will it be this year, or the summer of 2022. Jesus said "behold I come quickly. So I think that means fast. I have to default to this year.

Just what you're saying, I was just telling people on an atheist forum.

Peace and safety time.

They blocked my IP address.

Because I think the composite beast already has risen from the sea of many peoples, and has already opened it's mouth to blaspheme God, I think the 42 months of Revelation 13 are completed.

We are at the first sign that the dragon is given the power to do on behalf of, or in the presence of, the composite beast. These signs will be the catalyst for the rest of the end time narrative. It is because of the signs that the devil is given the power to do on behalf of the first beast.

I imagine a couple of scenarios. I don't know which is right. We should find out as we get closer, maybe by Easter weekend we'll know more.

This super virus needs to culminate, to finish what it's supposed to do. But whether it ends, or reaches some sort of crescendo, it could wind up, it should wind up, with people saying "peace and safety".

And right when they think it's over, the second sign that the dragon is given the power to do falls from the sky. He will even CAUSE fire to fall from heaven in the full view of men. Sudden destruction and they will not escape. Just like on the day that Lot left out from Sodom, so shall it be at the coming of the Son of Man.

When the wold's survivors see how this has taken place, they will KNOW that the God of the Bible is back.

Watch for the Pope to give a speech.

He'll probably say that we need to do something to appease, or to placate God. Because of these signs he will deceive those who dwell on the face of the earth. It wouldn't work without the signs.

Whatever the Pope says for us to do at that point will amount to the mark of the beast.

Whatever the Pope says to do, the people will do, because they're going to be scared to death.

These are just my back of the envelope guesstimates, which will change in a couple weeks.

With everything else going on in real time right now, it's almost too spooky to talk about.

Be silent before the Lord,
Be silent before the Day of the Lord.

I was just digging out my old Carpenter LP's.

I bet she'll have the same voice when we meet her in New Jerusalem.

Time for a doom break.

APAK said:

This German/EU view of a planned or potential near-future virus pandemic is a very fascinating document developed in 2012. And they labeled it the Corona virus no less. The 3 year 3 cycle graph is especially interesting revealing when and where this virus would begin, in a market place in China Feb 2020, although about 6 months off from its actual start month. It is interesting also because yesterday on the TV a medical expert explained to the viewers why the NY Governor and those in Germany were saying that 60-80% would be infected by this virus when 'it is over.' She explained it could be in this range over a 3 year cycle, not in a first 6 month cycle. So this corroborates the graph in this document of a 3 years virus cycle to a large extent.

The document predicts that this corona virus begins in China. And according to its graph curves and together with the data we have now today, it shows China's infection rate was very noticeable by Feb 2020 - before it extended out from China. So to be in compliance with this graph, we must go back to its zero date, 6 months earlier of Aug 2019 (not Feb 2020 as the document predicted - 6 months late). And using this as a starting point using the same graph, the 1st cycle virus peak is at the end of April 2020 - 270 days after the zero start date. Which is uncanny, as some medical experts and modelers are saying and predicting the same thing today.

Now continuing on by using the document graph, the 2nd virus infection cycle peak is set at about 540 days after the zero start date. This then means this 2nd peak is around Jan 2021, and is about 40-50 percent less infectious as the 1st cycle virus peak.

The last and 3rd cycle peak, occurs about 900 days after the zero start date of the virus - Jan 2022. And this is about 50 percent less infectious as the 2nd cycle.

There is a large body of evidence suggesting that this virus was man-made. There is much less evidence or circumstantial evidence to say that this virus was purposely exposed to the public in China with its goal, to create a viral pandemic even though this virus is not that deadly as compared even with the common flu, especially among the elderly. I believe it was set in motion, deliberately.

I also believe this is the 3rd and even final virus drill of this kind since the first less than 20 years ago.

These are effective psyops weapons to trigger public panic, condition the public to become more dependent on the government, alter laws and introduce replacement laws to control the public more effectively. It is a globalist agenda.

I also believer this particular globalist plan will ultimately fail although other woes, according to scripture are on the horizon.

APAK

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Thank you.
Excellent and very informative.