Is this good for Christianity?

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Justadude

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Maybe you haven't found a religious system that fits your lifestyle so you don't have to think about whether you might be morally accountable to a righteous God who may exercise justice against you in a future judgment.
Like I told you before, my lifestyle isn't any different than all the Christians I know, with the exception of church attendance.

One more time though, do you have any response to what I tried to help you understand regarding taxonomy, species, and your replies to examples of the evolution of new species?
 

Paul Christensen

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That's the opposite of what happened. The Christian leaders' view on the nature of the earth was based on their reading of scripture. Did you know that Galileo was charged with heresy?


So again, how do you know you're not doing the same thing when it comes to interpreting scriptures as depicting young earth creationism?


It also says the earth doesn't move and rests on pillars. That's part of what the Christian leaders based their geocentric views on.


Have you ever considered the possibility that you're doing the same thing now, when you view theistic evolutionists as heretics?


Job 37 is clearly poetic, so I would never interpret it as being any sort of statement about the physical nature of the planet.
Okay, apart from all that, the bottom line is that you will die one day, as we all will, so where do you think you will go when you die?
 

Justadude

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Okay, apart from all that, the bottom line is that you will die one day, as we all will, so where do you think you will go when you die?
I'm starting to notice a pattern with you, where you're ignoring most of what I post. FYI, that sort of thing is rude.

To answer your question, I don't know what'll happen when I die. I'll find out when it happens.
 

Giuliano

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Do you get the sense that it's mostly generational?
I do.
How do you tell the difference between a true, valid experience and a false one?
Moses lays out one rule about how to eliminate some "revelations" as not being from God. I was not aware of that rule, by the way, when I had my first experience. Moses says that if God wants to reveal Himself, the first revelation will be in one of two ways: Speaking to the person in a dream, or appearing in a vision. The person who says his first experience was hearing a voice from God while he was awake is almost surely being fooled. Odds are the person may tell you too that it's an audible voice in the way regular voices are. There should be no confusion between how voices are being heard. If someone is hearing a spiritual voice, he should be certain he's not hearing a physical voice.

I believe if God chooses to reveal Himself, the first time He wants the person to be confident he's not hearing a physical voice. Things are seldom calm enough when people are wide awake, interacting with the world. Thus Samuel's first experience confused him a little. At first he thought he was hearing a physical voice.

If you don't mind me asking, what sort of experiences did you have?
I'll tell you about my first experience, before I knew about the rule Moses gave. I was asleep and suddenly I was in a dream. I didn't see anything. There wasn't much to see; but I heard a voice speaking to me. I was resting in the dream, inclined as if in a bed; and I was surrounded by flames. When the dream was over, I woke up and was wide awake immediately. It was like I had walked from one room to another through a door -- there was no period of "waking up" since in a way, I felt awake during the dream (as paradoxical as that sounds). There was nothing like some prophecy.

At the time, I thought I had heard the Voice of God Himself. I think I got it mostly right, but now I'd say I heard my Guardian Angel. I cannot say that I have ever heard from God Himself in person. My revelations came to me through my Guardian Angel or through other spiritual beings. I had trouble recognizing my Guardian Angel, but the other spiritual beings let me know who they were when they appeared.

Once a spirit turned up and claimed to be Jesus. To be honest, I wasn't sure it was. My mind wasn't calm enough, I didn't trust my own perceptions. If it was Jesus, I didn't want to offend him; but if it wasn't, I didn't want to be fooled. So I expressed my doubts and asked him to leave for a while until I got my act together. He was not upset with me. When he came back, I felt sure it was Jesus, and he wasn't offended since he knew I was doubting myself, not him.

The Bible has an interesting story about Hagar. She sees an angel and later claimed to have seen God. Ha, she had not seen God. That was an emergency. Hagar was not ready for that vision, but it was an emergency. She misinterpreted what she had seen, but the intended message got through. I would say to a certain degree, most spiritual dreams and visions contain slight problems. No one is hearing or seeing perfectly.

The revelations I trusted the most was ones which showed me flaws in myself. I am not a masochist who enjoys being humiliated -- they weren't like that. I was shown how I had been wrong in the past and how I could be right in the future. Michael showed up one evening. I asked him why he enjoyed power. You see, I had a problem with power -- I saw wanting power as a flaw. So I was curious and asked him. His answer was so he could do more good. He did not have to preach at me in a condemning tone. I knew I had been wrong trying to avoid wielding power. I was reproved. If I loved people, I had to want more power. I would even be willing to take some risks at times. I might make a mistake, thinking I was doing good, and do great harm.

There was one time when one of my prayers may have led to a problem. I used to go city by city in my prayers; and one night when I was praying for Seattle, my concentration broke. My practice was to view everyone with benevolence, even while praying for places some might call dens of iniquity. I was not careful enough that night and a part of me was slightly angry with people while I was praying for Seattle. I was shocked when I learned there had been an earthquake in that area. I had mixed feelings, to be sure. Part of me said, "You didn't do that. It was a coincidence." Part of me felt guilty. Part of me said, "The stress in the earth there needed to be relieved sooner or later; maybe it's better if they had a smaller quake instead of waiting to have a really big one." Which was it? Who knows? What I did learn though was that I had failed to keep my emotions under control. Even if it was pure coincidence, I had allowed myself to be angry without cause. No one in Seattle had injured me. I needed to work on keeping myself in check -- that was something I could know for sure.

LOL! The fact that so often people's revelations from God just happen to line up with their own views is pretty telling IMO.
Isn't it? If someone agrees too much with me, I start to wonder if he is trying to flatter me by going along with everything I say. I prefer to have people tell me what they honestly think. They don't need to agree with me. If I was getting spiritual revelations that lined up with my views 100%, I would have to ask if I was being played by a demon pretending to be an angel. What would I be learning? What would the point be?
 

ScottA

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Interesting, because I think the same about you.


The first part is the key (if there are those who "know"). I've seen nothing to make me believe that when it comes to gods, there are people who "know", so from my perspective you all are "those who only believe".
Well, then we are back to you not being very astute, for there is a thread of eye witnesses and evidence from historical sources down through the ages, that say otherwise.

But, your position is very typical, defining you as one who only allows a particular type of evidence which is limited to the things of nature and science. It's a self-limitation, which leaves you in no position to receive all the information. In other words, you choose not to know all truth. And this I can say, because I have explained in reasonable and logical terms more probable than those you take for granted by making assumptions, and you pass it off even though history supports everything I have said. For example, you and I could have a contest asking each other "What happened before that?", and your every answer would be based on would-be knowledge that you yourself have no personal history with, but you take it all to be true because that is the way the wind of society blew it your way, the end of which would be "I don't know." But in that same contest, I would be answering everything based on direct knowledge, confirmed knowledge, and I could tell you what happened before everything that you think you know, and even that which you would eventually be forced to say you didn't know. But you have chosen your own group of assumptions, nothing more, and do so against reason and logic.

The only thing that is working in your approach, is that you are determined not to be moved by what you yourself do not possess. And, in keeping with my example...do you know what happens after that? No of course not. But I do.
 
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Paul Christensen

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I'm starting to notice a pattern with you, where you're ignoring most of what I post. FYI, that sort of thing is rude.

To answer your question, I don't know what'll happen when I die. I'll find out when it happens.
I'm more interested in what is going to happen to you if you find to your horror that there is a judgment and it is too late for you. I believe that you are in terrible danger, and I feel the need to warn you before it is too late for you.

Especially with the outbreak of the coronavirus in your country and that people of all ages are dying from it. You could be next, so it is important to me that you are clearly warned, that if there is a judgment, you need to be ready.

Who knows whether you will be alive next week?
 

Justadude

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Me too, and I think it applies to a lot of situations.

Moses lays out one rule about how to eliminate some "revelations" as not being from God. I was not aware of that rule, by the way, when I had my first experience. Moses says that if God wants to reveal Himself, the first revelation will be in one of two ways: Speaking to the person in a dream, or appearing in a vision. The person who says his first experience was hearing a voice from God while he was awake is almost surely being fooled.
So the vision also has to be while asleep?

I'll tell you about my first experience, before I knew about the rule Moses gave. I was asleep and suddenly I was in a dream. I didn't see anything. There wasn't much to see; but I heard a voice speaking to me. I was resting in the dream, inclined as if in a bed; and I was surrounded by flames. When the dream was over, I woke up and was wide awake immediately. It was like I had walked from one room to another through a door -- there was no period of "waking up" since in a way, I felt awake during the dream (as paradoxical as that sounds). There was nothing like some prophecy.

At the time, I thought I had heard the Voice of God Himself. I think I got it mostly right, but now I'd say I heard my Guardian Angel. I cannot say that I have ever heard from God Himself in person. My revelations came to me through my Guardian Angel or through other spiritual beings. I had trouble recognizing my Guardian Angel, but the other spiritual beings let me know who they were when they appeared.

Once a spirit turned up and claimed to be Jesus. To be honest, I wasn't sure it was. My mind wasn't calm enough, I didn't trust my own perceptions. If it was Jesus, I didn't want to offend him; but if it wasn't, I didn't want to be fooled. So I expressed my doubts and asked him to leave for a while until I got my act together. He was not upset with me. When he came back, I felt sure it was Jesus, and he wasn't offended since he knew I was doubting myself, not him.

The Bible has an interesting story about Hagar. She sees an angel and later claimed to have seen God. Ha, she had not seen God. That was an emergency. Hagar was not ready for that vision, but it was an emergency. She misinterpreted what she had seen, but the intended message got through. I would say to a certain degree, most spiritual dreams and visions contain slight problems. No one is hearing or seeing perfectly.

The revelations I trusted the most was ones which showed me flaws in myself. I am not a masochist who enjoys being humiliated -- they weren't like that. I was shown how I had been wrong in the past and how I could be right in the future. Michael showed up one evening. I asked him why he enjoyed power. You see, I had a problem with power -- I saw wanting power as a flaw. So I was curious and asked him. His answer was so he could do more good. He did not have to preach at me in a condemning tone. I knew I had been wrong trying to avoid wielding power. I was reproved. If I loved people, I had to want more power. I would even be willing to take some risks at times. I might make a mistake, thinking I was doing good, and do great harm.

There was one time when one of my prayers may have led to a problem. I used to go city by city in my prayers; and one night when I was praying for Seattle, my concentration broke. My practice was to view everyone with benevolence, even while praying for places some might call dens of iniquity. I was not careful enough that night and a part of me was slightly angry with people while I was praying for Seattle. I was shocked when I learned there had been an earthquake in that area. I had mixed feelings, to be sure. Part of me said, "You didn't do that. It was a coincidence." Part of me felt guilty. Part of me said, "The stress in the earth there needed to be relieved sooner or later; maybe it's better if they had a smaller quake instead of waiting to have a really big one." Which was it? Who knows? What I did learn though was that I had failed to keep my emotions under control. Even if it was pure coincidence, I had allowed myself to be angry without cause. No one in Seattle had injured me. I needed to work on keeping myself in check -- that was something I could know for sure.
That's quite a story. Thanks for sharing.

Isn't it? If someone agrees too much with me, I start to wonder if he is trying to flatter me by going along with everything I say. I prefer to have people tell me what they honestly think. They don't need to agree with me. If I was getting spiritual revelations that lined up with my views 100%, I would have to ask if I was being played by a demon pretending to be an angel. What would I be learning? What would the point be?
I think that's a good trait to have. With me it's always a fine line when I hear stories like yours. On one hand I immediately go to skepticism due to what I think are obvious issues with the stories, but on the other I figure if it's meaningful for you and helped you through life, it'd be terribly inconsiderate of me to try and take that away. Live and let live, and all that.
 

Justadude

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Well, then we are back to you not being very astute, for there is a thread of eye witnesses and evidence from historical sources down through the ages, that say otherwise.
You don't seem able to appreciate that looking across humanity and "down through the ages" shows that people have revelations of all sorts, including many that directly contradict yours. I realize your experience was life changing and profoundly meaningful for you, but I don't know why you think it should be meaningful to me.

But, your position is very typical, defining you as one who only allows a particular type of evidence which is limited to the things of nature and science.
Wrong. You're thinking that because I don't blindly accept your experience, that means I'll never accept anything like that. But you're missing the fact that I'm not considering your experience in isolation. I'm also considering it in the context of the Hindu Yogis who have revelations about reincarnation, and the Muslim Imams who have revelations about Allah and Mohammed, and the Mormons who have revelations about Joseph Smith, and the Buddhists who have revelations about the Buddha.

Apparently you're expecting me to just dismiss all those and blindly accept yours.

For example, you and I could have a contest asking each other "What happened before that?", and your every answer would be based on would-be knowledge that you yourself have no personal history with, but you take it all to be true because that is the way the wind of society blew it your way, the end of which would be "I don't know." But in that same contest, I would be answering everything based on direct knowledge, confirmed knowledge, and I could tell you what happened before everything that you think you know, and even that which you would eventually be forced to say you didn't know. But you have chosen your own group of assumptions, nothing more, and do so against reason and logic.
You think the reasonable and logical course would be for me to be like "Some anonymous guy at a Christian message board said he had a revelation, so I'm going to base my entire life around it""? Come on.

The only thing that is working in your approach, is that you are determined not to be moved by what you yourself do not possess. And, in keeping with my example...do you know what happens after that? No of course not. But I do.
Of course you do. And the Hindu Yogi knows, as does the Muslim Imam, the Buddhist Monk, the Mormon Elder, etc. You all "know", yet you all contradict each other.
 

Justadude

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I'm more interested in what is going to happen to you if you find to your horror that there is a judgment and it is too late for you. I believe that you are in terrible danger, and I feel the need to warn you before it is too late for you.

Especially with the outbreak of the coronavirus in your country and that people of all ages are dying from it. You could be next, so it is important to me that you are clearly warned, that if there is a judgment, you need to be ready.

Who knows whether you will be alive next week?
Don't assume you're the first person who's ever preached to me about Christianity. I've heard it my entire life.

It also looks like you're going to ignore everything I took the time to post to you, which is extremely rude. Maybe you're a troll who's just here to play up every negative stereotype of conservative Christians? But if you truly are like this I can see that you're just here to preach at me, while not listening to one single thing I say. IOW, I've been wasting my time trying to have a discussion with you.

BTW, you should try and appreciate how your behavior impacts the effectiveness of your conversion attempts.
 

Jane_Doe22

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Don't assume you're the first person who's ever preached to me about Christianity. I've heard it my entire life.

It also looks like you're going to ignore everything I took the time to post to you, which is extremely rude. Maybe you're a troll who's just here to play up every negative stereotype of conservative Christians? But if you truly are like this I can see that you're just here to preach at me, while not listening to one single thing I say. IOW, I've been wasting my time trying to have a discussion with you.

BTW, you should try and appreciate how your behavior impacts the effectiveness of your conversion attempts.
(My response here is in general, not having anything particular to do with Paul Christianson).

Some people can be jerks, that's true of every group of humans.
And it's very easy to stereotype, that's true for all humans.

The challenge is to rise above those easy tenedicies of being a jerk and stereotype-ing, and instead *listen* and talk with other individuals we encounter in our lives. It's a hard challenge.
 

Justadude

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(My response here is in general, not having anything particular to do with Paul Christianson).

Some people can be jerks, that's true of every group of humans.
And it's very easy to stereotype, that's true for all humans.
Yep, no doubt about that.

The challenge is to rise above those easy tenedicies of being a jerk and stereotype-ing, and instead *listen* and talk with other individuals we encounter in our lives. It's a hard challenge.
I fully agree. It's like the old saying, you never learn anything while you're talking.
 
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ScottA

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You don't seem able to appreciate that looking across humanity and "down through the ages" shows that people have revelations of all sorts, including many that directly contradict yours. I realize your experience was life changing and profoundly meaningful for you, but I don't know why you think it should be meaningful to me.
That is a fouled logic. One does not go to the store to buy everything, or pick all in a gamble, but rather to pick just what is right, to pick a winner. Likewise, those other "revelations of all sorts" do not justify passing on the truth, or not picking the best of the bunch. With that approach, you have only identified the challenge, but won nothing. You've gone shopping and come home empty handed.

Wrong. You're thinking that because I don't blindly accept your experience, that means I'll never accept anything like that. But you're missing the fact that I'm not considering your experience in isolation. I'm also considering it in the context of the Hindu Yogis who have revelations about reincarnation, and the Muslim Imams who have revelations about Allah and Mohammed, and the Mormons who have revelations about Joseph Smith, and the Buddhists who have revelations about the Buddha.

Apparently you're expecting me to just dismiss all those and blindly accept yours.
Regardless, it is not wrong to tell you that you have missed the truth among those counterfeits. It is also not wrong for one who knows the truth to say so...and to be fully qualified to know the difference.

You think the reasonable and logical course would be for me to be like "Some anonymous guy at a Christian message board said he had a revelation, so I'm going to base my entire life around it""? Come on.
No, I am saying it is reasonable that one is correct and the others wrong, and that your lack of ability to discern it is more likely the very thing that has caused you to dismiss it.

Of course you do. And the Hindu Yogi knows, as does the Muslim Imam, the Buddhist Monk, the Mormon Elder, etc. You all "know", yet you all contradict each other.
You are repeating your failed logic. Be careful, that is very near the definition of insanity.
 

Justadude

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That is a fouled logic. One does not go to the store to buy everything, or pick all in a gamble, but rather to pick just what is right, to pick a winner. Likewise, those other "revelations of all sorts" do not justify passing on the truth, or not picking the best of the bunch. With that approach, you have only identified the challenge, but won nothing. You've gone shopping and come home empty handed.

Regardless, it is not wrong to tell you that you have missed the truth among those counterfeits. It is also not wrong for one who knows the truth to say so...and to be fully qualified to know the difference.

No, I am saying it is reasonable that one is correct and the others wrong, and that your lack of ability to discern it is more likely the very thing that has caused you to dismiss it.

You are repeating your failed logic. Be careful, that is very near the definition of insanity.
So basically your message is that your vision is the truth, all others are counterfeit, and I'm borderline insane for not just blindly accepting that.
 

Truth OT

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One simply needs to examine the orderliness of the universe, telescopically and microscopically.

Why do you equate seeming orderliness with a need for a deity? How exhaustive of a search did you do before establishing your PREFERRED conclusion? Have you considered other ways order may have come about? Have you researched how order can arise from chaos?

Take the structure of DNA as an example. Only a superior Intelligence could design such a thing and put it into all living creatures.

How do you know this to be true? Are you just making an argument from ignorance by asserting that a god is necessary because YOU don't know how DNA could come about? "I don't know" does not equal "my God did it."
 
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Truth OT

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What do you know for a fact? So far as I can see, the only thing I can know for sure is that "I am aware."

A Rene Descarte disciple huh?

If there is a God...........
If my awareness is all that's real, maybe I'm the "God." But working from the position that reality may not in fact be real and resorting to view mired in solipsism gets us nowhere. The given we should all agree to start with is that reality is in fact real. From this baseline, we can examine reality and how it works (to the best of our collective abilities) to determine what
 

ScottA

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So basically your message is that your vision is the truth, all others are counterfeit, and I'm borderline insane for not just blindly accepting that.
We haven't even touched on my message. I was just responding to your message, showing you where you are going wrong...and offering a more constructive approach.
 

Paul Christensen

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Don't assume you're the first person who's ever preached to me about Christianity. I've heard it my entire life.

It also looks like you're going to ignore everything I took the time to post to you, which is extremely rude. Maybe you're a troll who's just here to play up every negative stereotype of conservative Christians? But if you truly are like this I can see that you're just here to preach at me, while not listening to one single thing I say. IOW, I've been wasting my time trying to have a discussion with you.

BTW, you should try and appreciate how your behavior impacts the effectiveness of your conversion attempts.
Firstly I can't convert you, only God can do that through an act of His grace and mercy. All I can do is to warn you about the approaching Judgment and the need to be prepared for it.

If that offends you, then it may be that your will and your own conscience is in conflict. If that is so, it is not because I am rightfully warning you that you are an unsaved sinner and if there is a Judgment, you will be found guilty.

As long as you are not born again of the Spirit of God, which Jesus says you must be (John 3:3), then it won't matter what answers I give to your questions, you won't understand or accept them, and will continue finding arguments against them, so for me it is a waste of my time and effort continuing to try.

Well, as you have heard these things before and rejected them, then, if there is a Judgment, you will have no excuse. If it is really true that you will stand before God and give an account of your life, it won't wash with Him for you to say you didn't know. He will just tell you of all the times that concerned believers have tried to warn you, but you didn't listen to them. I wouldn't be surprised if He pointed to me and said, "Look, there's Paul over there, and he warned you, and you abused him for it!" What are you going to say to Him then?

I am warning you because I am concerned about you, and it would give me no pleasure to see you end up in God's eternal prison without parole. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy, so all I can do, like seeing a person on the road and a heavy truck is bearing down on him, is to shout a warning to get out of the way. He may reply, "Oh I have been warned by all those other people and what makes you think I will believe you?" two seconds before the truck squishes him into the road.

I believe that you are in terrible danger, and I am just warning you about it. I am not trying to convert you to anything, because I can't. Only God can do that, and if He decides not to extend mercy and grace to you because of your refusal to listen to mine and others', then He might sadly leave you to face His judgment and the penalty for your sinfulness.
 

Justadude

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We haven't even touched on my message. I was just responding to your message, showing you where you are going wrong...and offering a more constructive approach.
And I'm "going wrong" by not blindly accepting your vision as truth and waving away all the others as counterfeit, right?
 

Justadude

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Firstly I can't convert you, only God can do that through an act of His grace and mercy. All I can do is to warn you about the approaching Judgment and the need to be prepared for it.

If that offends you, then it may be that your will and your own conscience is in conflict.
You're still not listening. I don't care if you want to preach at me. Believe me, I'm more than used to it.

What irritates me is how right in the middle of what I thought was a decent conversation, you suddenly stopped acknowledging everything I posted. That you decided to start preaching is secondary to that. You could've started talking about golf and it would've been equally annoying.

Imagine if you'd done that in person. You and I are sitting at a cafe, having a nice discussion. Then out of the blue, you start ignoring everything I say and go on about your golf game. I try and get you back to what we were talking about earlier, but you ignore me again and keep talking about your golf game. I try one more time, you ignore me again, and start repeating your golf stories.

Anyone with any sort of social conscience would easily see how rude that is. Most people would just get up and leave. If you can't be bothered to even acknowledge that I'm speaking, why should I listen to you?
 

Paul Christensen

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You're still not listening. I don't care if you want to preach at me. Believe me, I'm more than used to it.

What irritates me is how right in the middle of what I thought was a decent conversation, you suddenly stopped acknowledging everything I posted. That you decided to start preaching is secondary to that. You could've started talking about golf and it would've been equally annoying.

Imagine if you'd done that in person. You and I are sitting at a cafe, having a nice discussion. Then out of the blue, you start ignoring everything I say and go on about your golf game. I try and get you back to what we were talking about earlier, but you ignore me again and keep talking about your golf game. I try one more time, you ignore me again, and start repeating your golf stories.

Anyone with any sort of social conscience would easily see how rude that is. Most people would just get up and leave. If you can't be bothered to even acknowledge that I'm speaking, why should I listen to you?
Okay. I have told you. Your blood in the judgment is no longer on my hands. So I will leave you alone now. But I won't be answering your questions. I will leave that to others. My foundation is the literal Bible, and if you don't share my foundation, which you don't, none of my answers will be of any benefit to you. You can put me on ignore if you wish, then you won't have to be concerned with me any longer.