Who Is "the Restrainer" In 2 Thess. 2:6-7

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ATP

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Phoneman777 said:
Where did I say there were trumpet blasts on the DoA? The Trumpets are blown before hand to announce the soon arrival of the DoA.

I said the Feast of Trumpets in prophecy were the events which took place before the DoA of 1844, the "cleansing of the Sanctuary" which took place at the end of the 2,300 Days. These events were the Great Lisbon Earthquake of 1755, the Dark Day and Bloody Moon Night of 1780, and the Great Winter of Falling Stars of 1833.
So you don't believe the Feast of Trumpets describes a future rapture? I'm confused.

Phoneman777 said:
I have studied BOTH intently. You have studied only ONE and unless you are willing to study Historicism out before making up your mind,
:rolleyes:

Isa 60:16 NIV You will drink the milk of nations and be nursed at royal breasts. Then you will know that I, the Lord, am your Savior, your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.

Jer 31:31 NIV “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.

Ezek 16:59-63 NIV “ ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will deal with you as you deserve, because you have despised my oath by breaking the covenant. 60 Yet I will remember the covenant I made with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. 61 Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed when you receive your sisters, both those who are older than you and those who are younger. I will give them to you as daughters, but not on the basis of my covenant with you. 62 So I will establish my covenant with you, and you will know that I am the LORD. 63 Then, when I make atonement for you for all you have done, you will remember and be ashamed and never again open your mouth because of your humiliation, declares the Sovereign LORD.’ ”

Ezek 34:25 NIV “ ‘I will make a covenant of peace with them and rid the land of savage beasts so that they may live in the wilderness and sleep in the forests in safety.

Ezek 36:33 NIV “ ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: On the day I cleanse you from all your sins, I will resettle your towns, and the ruins will be rebuilt.

Ezek 37:23 NIV They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.

Amos 9:14-15 NIV and I will bring my people Israel back from exile. “They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit. 15I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them,”

Micah 2:12-13 NIV “I will surely gather all of you, Jacob; I will surely bring together the remnant of Israel. I will bring them together like sheep in a pen, like a flock in its pasture; the place will throng with people. 13The One who breaks open the way will go up before them; they will break through the gate and go out. Their King will pass through before them, the Lord at their head.”

Micah 7:11-12 NIV The day for building your walls will come, the day for extending your boundaries. 12In that day people will come to you from Assyria and the cities of Egypt, even from Egypt to the Euphrates and from sea to sea and from mountain to mountain.

Zech 8:7-8 NIV This is what the Lord Almighty says: “I will save my people from the countries of the east and the west. 8I will bring them back to live in Jerusalem; they will be my people, and I will be faithful and righteous to them as their God.”

Zech 8:23 NIV This is what the Lord Almighty says: “In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’ ”

Zech 9:14-17 NIV Then the LORD will appear over them; his arrow will flash like lightning. The Sovereign LORD will sound the trumpet; he will march in the storms of the south, 15 and the LORD Almighty will shield them. They will destroy and overcome with slingstones. They will drink and roar as with wine; they will be full like a bowl used for sprinkling the corners of the altar. 16 The LORD their God will save his people on that day as a shepherd saves his flock. They will sparkle in his land like jewels in a crown. 17 How attractive and beautiful they will be! Grain will make the young men thrive, and new wine the young women.

Zech 10:6-12 NIV “I will strengthen Judah and save the tribes of Joseph. I will restore them because I have compassion on them. They will be as though I had not rejected them, for I am the LORD their God and I will answer them. 7 The Ephraimites will become like warriors, and their hearts will be glad as with wine. Their children will see it and be joyful; their hearts will rejoice in the LORD. 8 I will signal for them and gather them in. Surely I will redeem them; they will be as numerous as before. 9 Though I scatter them among the peoples, yet in distant lands they will remember me. They and their children will survive, and they will return. 10 I will bring them back from Egypt and gather them from Assyria. I will bring them to Gilead and Lebanon, and there will not be room enough for them. 11 They will pass through the sea of trouble; the surging sea will be subdued and all the depths of the Nile will dry up. Assyria’s pride will be brought down and Egypt’s scepter will pass away. 12 I will strengthen them in the LORD and in his name they will live securely,” declares the LORD.

Rom 11:25-31 NIV I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” 28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you.
 

Phoneman777

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ATP said:
So you don't believe the Feast of Trumpets describes a future rapture? I'm confused.
Q. When did the Day of Atonement - the time when the sanctuary was to be cleansed - take place?
A. "Unto 2,300 Days then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." Daniel 8:14 KJV (The 2,300 Days and the 70 Weeks both begin at the same time - 457 B.C. - because the 70 Weeks shorter portion was cut off from the whole 2,300 Days to "seal up the vision and the prophecy", meaning to give assurance that the entire vision would come to pass by the clear fulfillment of the shorter portion first, which Jesuit Futurists deny has been fulfilled because of the "gap" theory, future Antichrist, etc., but nevertheless, keep reading...)

Q. What was the purpose of the Feast of Trumpets?
A. To announce the approach of the Day of Atonement.

Q. Did something happen to announce that the 2,300 Days was almost over and the Day of Atonement was upon the people?
A. Yes, the Great Lisbon Earthquake, the Dark Day when the sun was darkened, the Blood Red Moon night when the moon turned blood red, and the Great Winter of Falling Stars when the stars fell from heaven as a fig tree shaken by a mighty wind, all of which caused what church history now recognizes as "The Great Religious Awakening". It is when the seal on the Book of Daniel was opened and the sanctuary was discovered and seen that it was about to be cleansed, and for the first time people from all church backgrounds began preaching that Jesus was coming soon, while their pathetic church leaders denied this and disfellowshipped them and stubbornly held to their "post-millennium return of Christ" error.

Now these same pathetic leaders have jumped on the bandwagon proclaiming Jesus is coming soon, but they continue to be blind to the Heavenly Sanctuary, focusing their pathetic selves on some temple in Jerusalem which by its own blasphemous existence can never be the "Temple of God" in His sight. Ask yourself why your prophecy teachers have never told you this before, bro. Ask yourself why they are hiding these inexplicable, marvelous events - which resulted in the fantastic discovery that Jesus is about to come and take us home - from the church?
 

ATP

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Phoneman777 said:
Q. When did the Day of Atonement - the time when the sanctuary was to be cleansed - take place?
A. "Unto 2,300 Days then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." Daniel 8:14 KJV (The 2,300 Days and the 70 Weeks both begin at the same time - 457 B.C. - because the 70 Weeks shorter portion was cut off from the whole 2,300 Days to "seal up the vision and the prophecy", meaning to give assurance that the entire vision would come to pass by the clear fulfillment of the shorter portion first, which Jesuit Futurists deny has been fulfilled because of the "gap" theory, future Antichrist, etc., but nevertheless, keep reading...)

Q. What was the purpose of the Feast of Trumpets?
A. To announce the approach of the Day of Atonement.

Q. Did something happen to announce that the 2,300 Days was almost over and the Day of Atonement was upon the people?
A. Yes, the Great Lisbon Earthquake, the Dark Day when the sun was darkened, the Blood Red Moon night when the moon turned blood red, and the Great Winter of Falling Stars when the stars fell from heaven as a fig tree shaken by a mighty wind, all of which caused what church history now recognizes as "The Great Religious Awakening". It is when the seal on the Book of Daniel was opened and the sanctuary was discovered and seen that it was about to be cleansed, and for the first time people from all church backgrounds began preaching that Jesus was coming soon, while their pathetic church leaders denied this and disfellowshipped them and stubbornly held to their "post-millennium return of Christ" error.

Now these same pathetic leaders have jumped on the bandwagon proclaiming Jesus is coming soon, but they continue to be blind to the Heavenly Sanctuary, focusing their pathetic selves on some temple in Jerusalem which by its own blasphemous existence can never be the "Temple of God" in His sight. Ask yourself why your prophecy teachers have never told you this before, bro. Ask yourself why they are hiding these inexplicable, marvelous events - which resulted in the fantastic discovery that Jesus is about to come and take us home - from the church?
...conveniently ignoring the scriptures that expose your unbelief that God will save the Jews. :rolleyes:
 

Phoneman777

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ATP said:
...conveniently ignoring the scriptures that expose your unbelief that God will save the Jews. :rolleyes:
What are you talking about? There is simply no other way to understand the 2,300 Days prophecy, but to calculate from 457 B.C. to 1844 A.D. Unless you are a Jesuit. I'm beginning to think you are a Jesuit operative, based on how much you preach their dogma
 

ATP

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Phoneman777 said:
What are you talking about? There is simply no other way to understand the 2,300 Days prophecy, but to calculate from 457 B.C. to 1844 A.D. Unless you are a Jesuit. I'm beginning to think you are a Jesuit operative, based on how much you preach their dogma
Post 381 you blind fool.
 

tom55

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Phoneman777 said:
Dear friend, Jesus Himself clarified that He spoke symbolically, saying flesh doesn't profit, but only His WORD, in verse 63, which is what I base my belief in. There is no mention in the entire Bible of the transubstantiation - Luther said it and the rest of false Papal doctrine comes from the "Roman Dunghill of Decretals", and has been simply yet another means of exploitation of the masses through the use of superstition. It forms one of the foundational components for Catholicim's claim that salvation comes only through the Holy See because by his authority alone can we "eat His flesh/blood". You should know that at the Last Supper, Jesus passed the cup to everyone, which is never done during the Eucharist, though Jesus said "as often as ye do THIS ("this" referring to both bread and cup). Very inconsistent.
So you want to clarify that you actually put your faith and belief in TWO men, Hislop and Martin Luther and their words that were written almost 2000 years after Jesus death.

I still put my faith and belief in His words and the words of the men who walked and talked with Him. I quote Jesus, Paul and the early Christians who walked and talked with the apostles. You quote Hislop and Martin Luther.
 

Phoneman777

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ATP said:
Post 381 you blind fool.
Why do you call me a blind fool? Where are your calculation in that post? Where in that post do you demonstrate a starting date and ending date of the 2,300 prophetic Days, or literal YEARS? Unless I missed something, your post is wholly inadequate to explain the prophecy.
 

Phoneman777

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tom55 said:
So you want to clarify that you actually put your faith and belief in TWO men, Hislop and Martin Luther and their words that were written almost 2000 years after Jesus death.

I still put my faith and belief in His words and the words of the men who walked and talked with Him. I quote Jesus, Paul and the early Christians who walked and talked with the apostles. You quote Hislop and Martin Luther.
What's wrong with quoting great Protestant men like Luther and Hislop when their beliefs are Biblically based? Your belief that the Eucharist is Biblical is incorrect, friend. Jesus Himself said "the flesh profiteth nothing", but that His WORDS are what are Spirit and Life, but the Papacy claims their sacraments, not the least of which is the Eucharist, produce that.
You can believe that hocus pocus Papal deception all you want, but any thinking person who reads the Bible with his eyes open can see that there is not one single instance where is found an occasion of Eucharistic "magic", infant baptism, priesthood celibacy, the trafficking of forgiveness, veneration of saints/idols/relics, the preeminence of Peter, the elevation of the authority of the Pope over "heaven, the earth, and purgatory" which is represented by his "triple crown", or any other such false doctrine from the Papal "dunghill of decretals", friend.
 

ATP

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Phoneman777 said:
Why do you call me a blind fool? Where are your calculation in that post? Where in that post do you demonstrate a starting date and ending date of the 2,300 prophetic Days, or literal YEARS? Unless I missed something, your post is wholly inadequate to explain the prophecy.
You don't know what is past and what is future, and what scripture is referring to Jews or Saints. It's a sloppy way to study. All future, all jews Phone.............

Isa 60:16 NIV, Jer 31:31 NIV, Jer 31:35-36 NIV, Ezek 16:59-63 NIV, Ezek 34:25 NIV, Ezek 36:33 NIV, Ezek 37:23 NIV, Dan 9:20-24 NIV, Amos 9:14-15 NIV, Micah 2:12-13 NIV, Micah 7:11-12 NIV, Zech 8:7-8 NIV, Zech 8:23 NIV, Zech 9:14-17 NIV, Zech 10:6-12 NIV, Rom 11:25-31 NIV
 

ATP

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Angelina said:
I still think that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit of God :) :)
That's understandable. Why search for truth when we can follow church tradition.

The restrainer is Michael the angel at the abomination of desolation. The word "arise" in Dan 12:1 is translated "amad" and can also mean to...

1. stand still, stop, cease moving, of moon Joshua 10:13 (J E; "" וַיִּדֹּם), sun Joshua 10:13, both, Habakkuk 3:11; of person 1 Samuel 9:27 (opposed to עָבַר), 2 Samuel 2:28 (opposed to רָדַף), עִמְדוּ עֲמֹ֫דוּ Nahum 2:9 +; stop flowing (of oil) 2 Kings 4:6; remain standing, with תַּחְתֵּינוּ Judges 7:21; 1 Samuel 14:9 etc.; of eruption in skin = remain unchanged Leviticus 13:23,28; so (without ׳ת) Leviticus 13:5,37 (all P).
2. be inactive 2 Chronicles 20:17 (opposed to לְהִלָּחֵם, + הִתְיַצְּבוּ).
3. stop, cease doing a thing 2 Kings 13:18; with מִן Genesis 29:35; Genesis 30:9 (both J), Joel 1:15.
4. tarry, delay Genesis 45:9 (E), Joshua 10:19 (J E; opposed to רָדַף), 1 Samuel 20:38 (opposed to מְהֵרָה, חוּשָׁה), +.
5. stand afar מֵרָחוֺק Exodus 20:18,21 (E), Isaiah 59:14; Psalm 38:12, ׳בְּר Psalm 10:1; ׳מִנֶּגֶד מֵר 2 Kings 2:7; stand aloof, מִנֶֹּגֶד Obadiah 11; Psalm 38:12.
6. stand (silent) Job 32:16.
7. grow flat, insipid (Gie), taste of wine Jeremiah 48:11 (figurative of Moab), or remain unchanged (so most, in that case compare 3b). — עָמְדִי Daniel 11:1b is corrupt, read probably עָמַדְתִּי, or עָמַד (מִיכָאֵל subject), join then to Daniel 10:21 and strike out Daniel 11:1a; so Bev Behrm MartiKau.

Why does Michael stop moving? So God can send them a strong delusion 2 Thess 2:10-12 NIV. It is clear that there are angelic powers over world empires and leaders and nobody is going to come to power in the land of Israel if the angel of Israel (Michael) prevents them.

Dan 12:1 NIV “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

2 Thess 2:6-12 NIV And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Rev 12:6-12 NIV The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days. 7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. 11 They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death. 12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short."

- ATP
 

ATP

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The church will still be here after the abomination of desolation.........

Prewrath Rapture of the Church by Marvin Rosenthal
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/proph/prewra01.JPG

1. The Antichrist Kingdom signs peace treaty with Israel to begin the 70th week Isa 28:15 NIV, Isa 57:8-9 NIV, Dan 9:27 NIV, 2 John 1:7 NIV, Rev 6:2 NIV, Rev 6:8 NIV.
2. The third temple (the holy place) is built Exo 26:33 NIV, Ez 40-48 NIV, Dan 9:27 NIV, 2 Thess 2:3-4 NIV..http://thewordonpolitics.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Ezekiels-Temple-Logos.png
3. The first 3.5 years are birth pains, the first four seals are open along with apostasy of Jews Matt 24:4-7, 2 Thess 2:3 NIV, Rev 6:1-8 NIV.
4. Michael the angel, the restrainer is then removed at the middle of the 70th week Dan 12:1 NIV, 2 Thess 2:6-12 NIV, Rev 12:6-12 NIV.
5. The last 3.5 years of the 70th week now begins.
6. At the middle of the 70th week Satan is cast down and the Antichrist Kingdom sets up the abomination of desolation in the holy place and wages war against the saints Exo 26:33 NIV, Dan 7:19-26 NIV, Daniel 8:23-25 NIV, Dan 9:27 NIV, Dan 11:31 NIV, Dan 11:36-45 NIV, Dan 12:11 NIV, Matt 24:15 NIV, 2 Thess 2:3-4 NIV, Rev 6:9-11 NIV, Rev 12:6-17 NIV, Rev 13:1-10 NIV.
7. Immediately after the abomination of desolation takes place the fifth seal is open and the Great Tribulation begins, man's rebellion against God Matt 24:21 NIV, Rev 6:9-11 NIV.
8. This is right around where the two witnesses make their appearance and prophesy for 1,260 days Mal 4:5 NIV, Rev 11:2-3 NIV.
9. The false prophet/second beast then forces people to receive the mark of the beast or be martyred Rev 13:11-18 NIV.
10. Then the Great Tribulation is cut short around the middle of the last 3.5 years Matt 24:22 NIV.
11. Immediately after the Great Tribulation ends cosmic disturbances occur before the Day of the Lord begins Isa 13:10 NIV, Isa 34:4 NIV, Joel 2:30-31 NIV, Joel 3:14-15 NIV, Matt 24:29 NIV, Mark 13:24 NIV, Luke 21:25-28 NIV, Acts 2:19-20 NIV, 2 Pet 3:10 NIV, Rev 6:12-14 NIV.
12. The 144,000 are then sealed before the rapture, so they can enter the Day of the Lord without harm Rev 7:2-4 NIV.
13. First resurrection and Rapture occurs at 7th seal, after the Great Tribulation and on the Day of the Lord Isa 26:19-20 NIV, Dan 12:1-2 NIV, Matt 3:12 NIV, Matt 16:28 NIV, Matt 24:13-14 NIV, Matt 24:29-31 NIV, Matt 24:40-41 NIV, Matt 25:31-46 NIV, Luke 14:14-15 NIV, John 14:1-4 NIV, 1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV, 1 Thess 4:13-17 NIV, 2 Thess 1:6-10 NIV, Tit 2:13 NIV, Rev 1:7 NIV, Rev 7:9-17 NIV, Rev 8:1-5 NIV, Rev 14:14-16 NIV
14. The Bema Seat of Christ is here Matt 16:27 NIV, Luke 14:14-15 NIV, 2 Cor 5:10 NIV, Rev 19:8-9 NIV, Rev 22:12 NIV.
15. The Feast/Marriage Supper of the Lamb is also here Luke 14:14-15 NIV, Rev 7:9 NIV, Rev 19:1 NIV, Rev 19:9 NIV.
16. Then begins the Day of the Lord, the start of God's wrath of trumpets. The 5th trumpet in Rev 9:5 NIV will also last five months Job 21:30 NIV, Psa 110:5 NIV, Isa 2:19-21 NIV, Isa 13:9 NIV, Isa 13:13 NIV, Isa 26:20-21 NIV, Isa 34:8 KJV, Zep 1:15 NIV, Zep 2:2 NIV, Zep 3:8 NIV, Mal 3:2 NIV, Rom 2:5 NIV, Rev 6:15-17 NIV, Rev 11:18 NIV, Rev 14:10 NIV, Rev 14:17-20 NIV, Rev 15:1 NIV, Rev 15:7 NIV, Rev 16:1 NIV, Rev 16:19 NIV, Rev 19:15 NIV.
17. At the end of the 70th week the beast will kill the two witnesses, but after 3.5 days they will come alive Rev 11:7-12 NIV.
18. Very few people will be left after the 70th week is complete Zech 13:8-9 NIV.
19. Jesus landing on the Mount of Olives on the Day of Atonement is here Zech 14:4 NIV, Jude 1:14-15 NIV, Rev 19:11-21 NIV.
20. After the 70th week is complete the bowl judgments begin for 30 days, the time of mourning Num 20:29 NIV, Deut 34:8 NIV, Dan 12:11 NIV, Zech 12:10-14 NIV.
21. Then the 45 days begin for cleansing of the Temple Dan 12:12 NIV, Zech 13:1-6 NIV.
22. After the 45 days are finished the 1,000 year millennium begins Isa 11:6-9 NIV, Isa 65:20 NIV, Rev 20:4-6 NIV.
23. Nonbelievers will also be a part of the 1,000 year millennium Zech 14:16-19 NIV.
24. After the 1,000 years are finished, the dead believers and nonbelievers that are left over will be judged Matt 25:31-46 NIV, Rev 20:11-15 NIV.
25. Then a New Heaven and a New Earth will appear making everything new Isa 65:17-25 NIV, Rev 21:1-8 NIV.
26. Lastly, Eden is restored in which we now live with Jesus Christ forever and ever. Amen Rev 22:1-5 NIV.

Side Note 1: The full seven years are never called "the tribulation period", rather the 70th week is the proper name to describe the seven years.

Side Note 2: The Great Tribulation and the Day of the Lord are not the same event. The GT is man's rebellion against God, and the Day of the Lord is God's wrath against man. These two events are split in half in the last 3.5 years of the 70th week. The church will have to go through the first five seals and also the GT, but they will be raptured before the Day of the Lord begins, God's wrath of trumpets and bowls. The church will witness the signing of the peace treaty, the third temple built, the first four seals opening, the abomination of desolation, the two witnesses, the fifth seal opening, the GT of man's rebellion and the sixth seal of cosmic disturbances in the sun, moon and stars before they are raptured.
 

tom55

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Phoneman777 said:
What's wrong with quoting great Protestant men like Luther and Hislop when their beliefs are Biblically based? Your belief that the Eucharist is Biblical is incorrect, friend. Jesus Himself said "the flesh profiteth nothing", but that His WORDS are what are Spirit and Life, but the Papacy claims their sacraments, not the least of which is the Eucharist, produce that.
You can believe that hocus pocus Papal deception all you want, but any thinking person who reads the Bible with his eyes open can see that there is not one single instance where is found an occasion of Eucharistic "magic", infant baptism, priesthood celibacy, the trafficking of forgiveness, veneration of saints/idols/relics, the preeminence of Peter, the elevation of the authority of the Pope over "heaven, the earth, and purgatory" which is represented by his "triple crown", or any other such false doctrine from the Papal "dunghill of decretals", friend.
So the RCC and all the other denominations that believe/practice some of the same things are not "biblically based"? You, Luther and Hislop are right?
Hislop and Luther's writings aren't "hocus pocus" but what the RCC has been teaching for almost 2000 years is?
Anybody that accepts RCC theology/practice/teachings is not a "thinking person"?
False Papal doctrines? Maybe Hislop, Luther and you have false doctrines?
Eucharistic "magic"!! Do you not believe God can do miracles?
How can you be so sure you are right?
I can read the bible just as well as you and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit I can interpret the truth also. So therefore my friend; we are both right on this subject!! You have your truth, I have mine. I don't need you, Hislop, Luther or the RCC to tell me how to read and interpret scripture.

What I truly don't understand about your attack against our Christian brothers (Catholics and any denomination who believes transubstantiation) is I never said anything about RCC teachings or the Papacy or transubstantiation. YOU DID! I only quoted the bible and YOU decided to belittle our fellow Christians. My prayers are with you.
 

Phoneman777

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tom55 said:
So the RCC and all the other denominations that believe/practice some of the same things are not "biblically based"? You, Luther and Hislop are right?
Hislop and Luther's writings aren't "hocus pocus" but what the RCC has been teaching for almost 2000 years is?
Anybody that accepts RCC theology/practice/teachings is not a "thinking person"?
False Papal doctrines? Maybe Hislop, Luther and you have false doctrines?
Eucharistic "magic"!! Do you not believe God can do miracles?
How can you be so sure you are right?
I can read the bible just as well as you and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit I can interpret the truth also. So therefore my friend; we are both right on this subject!! You have your truth, I have mine. I don't need you, Hislop, Luther or the RCC to tell me how to read and interpret scripture.

What I truly don't understand about your attack against our Christian brothers (Catholics and any denomination who believes transubstantiation) is I never said anything about RCC teachings or the Papacy or transubstantiation. YOU DID! I only quoted the bible and YOU decided to belittle our fellow Christians. My prayers are with you.
Brother, I mean you no harm when I say that the Papacy is the Antichrist, which means "In Stead Of Christ"- if you'll look that up, you'll see it's true. But, no one can take Christ's stead, claim His titles, attributes, and authority, and remain guiltless.

If you'll read Revelation 18:1-4 KJV, you'll see that God Himself says His people are yet in Babylon (the Antichrist system) and He is calling them out, but while they are yet in Babylon, they are STILL His people, understand? So, please don't accuse me of attacking people, especially God's very own people on Babylon.

The Eucharist was brought into Christianity through Catholicism, so naturally the focus would be there, where the vast majority of "Eucharistic miracles" are found.

Again, you completely ignore His words of explanation which immediately follow His "eat My flesh/blood" statements and wholly overthrow any notion that He meant for us to take them literally. That's not good hermeneutics brother.
 

Phoneman777

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ATP said:
You don't know what is past and what is future, and what scripture is referring to Jews or Saints. It's a sloppy way to study. All future, all jews Phone.............

Isa 60:16 NIV, Jer 31:31 NIV, Jer 31:35-36 NIV, Ezek 16:59-63 NIV, Ezek 34:25 NIV, Ezek 36:33 NIV, Ezek 37:23 NIV, Dan 9:20-24 NIV, Amos 9:14-15 NIV, Micah 2:12-13 NIV, Micah 7:11-12 NIV, Zech 8:7-8 NIV, Zech 8:23 NIV, Zech 9:14-17 NIV, Zech 10:6-12 NIV, Rom 11:25-31 NIV
So, since you see that the prophecy began the same time of the 70 Weeks - 457 B.C.- but ends at a time that cannot be tied to any "Jesuit Futurism" explanation, rather than continue to study, you revert back to Jesuit Futurism. That's OK, pal, you ain't the first to do that. Cognitive Dissonance is a formidable adversary. I will pray for you.
 

ATP

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Phoneman777 said:
So, since you see that the prophecy began the same time of the 70 Weeks - 457 B.C.- but ends at a time that cannot be tied to any "Jesuit Futurism" explanation, rather than continue to study, you revert back to Jesuit Futurism. That's OK, pal, you ain't the first to do that. Cognitive Dissonance is a formidable adversary. I will pray for you.
God himself says He will save the Jews, and like mjr said your unbelief is not going to thwart His plans. You will pray for me because I believe that God keeps his promises? - ATP
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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tom55 said:
Jesus said I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died (reference to Exodus16:4). This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh. “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. “For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. “As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. “This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever” (John 6). Paul later re-affirms what Jesus said: I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Corinthians 10:15) So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. (1 Corinthians 11:27)

You, Marcus O'Reillius, are confusing what Jesus said to cannibalism. It (communion) obviously is not human flesh and blood! Communion is a participation in the spiritual flesh and blood of Jesus and it is a mystery how God performs this miracle but according to Jesus words, which were later re-affirmed by Paul and the early Christians (historical church writings), communion IS his flesh and blood. This belief and practice, which is backed up by scripture, was held for 1500 years before some heretics convinced weak minded people that it wasn't true.

I believe what Jesus, Paul and the early Christians practiced, preached and believed. If you choose to believe different then that is your choice.
You believe that eating the body of Christ is what they meant? - Don't believe everything you think.

Jesus said I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died (reference to Exodus16:4). This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.
  • What bread is to the body; Jesus is to the soul.
  • One of the many "I am" statements of Jesus which is true figuratively but not literally.
  • Jesus is drawing an analogy from the Wilderness trek of the Hebrews for physical life to their present "lost" status where they're still "wandering around" even while inside the land God promised them.
  • Just as the manna appeared six days a week, so too has the Messiah appeared.
  • Both give life - one physically, and the other spiritually; one daily, and the other for eternity.
  • Jesus gives us His Body for Salvation. It was His Sacrifice on the Cross which paid for our sins. He gives Himself for us.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.
  • Again, the Lord knows what He set up with Moses was a precursor for what He was about to do at the Last Supper when He made the New Covenant Isaiah spoke of - which he heard from the Lord.
  • Nothing is done in a vacuum; this saying is not literal, but figurative.
  • Jesus is also presenting a conundrum to the very Jews He was sent to save: on the surface, they would abhor, detest, resist, and avoid eating human flesh, and drinking blood, even animal blood was a sin.
  • In presenting them with what is a sin, Jesus is placing a stumbling block before them. Only later, could the believer understand the deeper meaning that Jesus gives.
His body is the Bread of Salvation. His Blood is the Cup of Redemption. By eating those in the greater aspect of, and in the context of, the Last Supper - where we are putting ourselves in the place of the Hebrews in captivity in Egypt: which allegorically translates to the thorns of this world - where we experience their pain of slavery with the salt and horseradish: which equates to our slavery to sin - where the lamb we eat: translates to the Lamb of God - the "Hidden Manna," the "Bread of Salvation" takes on special meaning.

Jesus, the Bread of Salvation, is hidden for a reason. Only those who seek God will find Him.

Likewise, the four cups of wine in the Last Supper each have their meaning:
  1. The cup of Sanctification which purifies - done first before eating the parsley sprig dipped in saltwater.
  2. The cup of Consecration - thanks to God for Deliverance - done right after the Bread is broken and half is hidden in the Tosh.
  3. The cup of Redemption - done after bread dipped in horseradish, the meal of lamb, after the bread with the sweet, and then, after the "hidden manna" is revealed (the Bread of Salvation).
  4. The cup of Anticipation - in the coming of the Messiah in Moses' time; now with Christ Jesus bodily on the earth - to be taken at the marriage feast of the Lamb in Heaven.
So while the bread and wine represents Christ Jesus, the spiritual translation is not from bread to body or wine to blood, but from bread to Salvation through His physical sacrifice, and wine to the Redemption we receive in His shed blood - which is given not to drink in the Law, but for the remission of sin.

If you need to keep things simple in your mind, go right ahead.
But don't tell me that knowing a deeper understanding goes against what Paul understood.
 

tom55

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Phoneman777 said:
Brother, I mean you no harm when I say that the Papacy is the Antichrist, which means "In Stead Of Christ"- if you'll look that up, you'll see it's true. But, no one can take Christ's stead, claim His titles, attributes, and authority, and remain guiltless.
If you'll read Revelation 18:1-4 KJV, you'll see that God Himself says His people are yet in Babylon (the Antichrist system) and He is calling them out, but while they are yet in Babylon, they are STILL His people, understand? So, please don't accuse me of attacking people, especially God's very own people on Babylon.
The Eucharist was brought into Christianity through Catholicism, so naturally the focus would be there, where the vast majority of "Eucharistic miracles" are found.
Again, you completely ignore His words of explanation which immediately follow His "eat My flesh/blood" statements and wholly overthrow any notion that He meant for us to take them literally. That's not good hermeneutics brother.
A Catholic reading your post would take your personal OPINION as an attack on them when you say that their faith is based on "hocus pocus Papal deception" and they aren't a "thinking person who reads the Bible with his eyes open". Further calling something that has been practiced and believed for 2000 years "Eucharistic magic". So what do you call your accusations if not an attack? (I know you won't answer this questions since I asked 7 questions in my last post and you didn't answer them)

Ignatius of Antioch was a student of the Apostle John and I trust what he said about the Eucharist over Hislop or Luther. What Ignatius said re-affirms what Jesus and Paul said. The Didache tells us what the early Christians practiced and believed. Jesus, Paul, Ignatius and early Christians beliefs and practices say OPPOSITE of what Luther and Hislop have to say about the Eucharist.
 

Phoneman777

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ATP said:
God himself says He will save the Jews, and like mjr said your unbelief is not going to thwart His plans. You will pray for me because I believe that God keeps his promises? - ATP
You don't understand the concept of objective study. The graduates of today's Bible cemeteries, er seminaries, can't hold a candle to Luther, Wycliffe, Melancthon, Tyndale, Zwingle, and the rest of these highly credentialed theologians to whom the truth was more dear than life itself. Has it ever occurred to you that these men interpreted the verses you read differently for a scholarly reason? Yet, you brush away their conclusions which reigned supreme for centuries over Protestantism until Christians like you decided to just recently resurrect the lies of Jesuit Futurism, which these great men immediately recognized as error and buried under mountains of Biblical truth arguments, without you or your fellow Jesuit sympathizers giving their evidence a chance to speak?
 

tom55

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Marcus O'Reillius said:
You believe that eating the body of Christ is what they meant? - Don't believe everything you think.
  • What bread is to the body; Jesus is to the soul.
  • One of the many "I am" statements of Jesus which is true figuratively but not literally.
  • Jesus is drawing an analogy from the Wilderness trek of the Hebrews for physical life to their present "lost" status where they're still "wandering around" even while inside the land God promised them.
  • Just as the manna appeared six days a week, so too has the Messiah appeared.
  • Both give life - one physically, and the other spiritually; one daily, and the other for eternity.
  • Jesus gives us His Body for Salvation. It was His Sacrifice on the Cross which paid for our sins. He gives Himself for us.
  • Again, the Lord knows what He set up with Moses was a precursor for what He was about to do at the Last Supper when He made the New Covenant Isaiah spoke of - which he heard from the Lord.
  • Nothing is done in a vacuum; this saying is not literal, but figurative.
  • Jesus is also presenting a conundrum to the very Jews He was sent to save: on the surface, they would abhor, detest, resist, and avoid eating human flesh, and drinking blood, even animal blood was a sin.
  • In presenting them with what is a sin, Jesus is placing a stumbling block before them. Only later, could the believer understand the deeper meaning that Jesus gives.
His body is the Bread of Salvation. His Blood is the Cup of Redemption. By eating those in the greater aspect of, and in the context of, the Last Supper - where we are putting ourselves in the place of the Hebrews in captivity in Egypt: which allegorically translates to the thorns of this world - where we experience their pain of slavery with the salt and horseradish: which equates to our slavery to sin - where the lamb we eat: translates to the Lamb of God - the "Hidden Manna," the "Bread of Salvation" takes on special meaning.
Jesus, the Bread of Salvation, is hidden for a reason. Only those who seek God will find Him.
Likewise, the four cups of wine in the Last Supper each have their meaning:
  1. The cup of Sanctification which purifies - done first before eating the parsley sprig dipped in saltwater.
  2. The cup of Consecration - thanks to God for Deliverance - done right after the Bread is broken and half is hidden in the Tosh.
  3. The cup of Redemption - done after bread dipped in horseradish, the meal of lamb, after the bread with the sweet, and then, after the "hidden manna" is revealed (the Bread of Salvation).
  4. The cup of Anticipation - in the coming of the Messiah in Moses' time; now with Christ Jesus bodily on the earth - to be taken at the marriage feast of the Lamb in Heaven.
So while the bread and wine represents Christ Jesus, the spiritual translation is not from bread to body or wine to blood, but from bread to Salvation through His physical sacrifice, and wine to the Redemption we receive in His shed blood - which is given not to drink in the Law, but for the remission of sin.

If you need to keep things simple in your mind, go right ahead.
But don't tell me that knowing a deeper understanding goes against what Paul understood.
To answer your question: You believe that eating the body of Christ is what they meant?

Yes! I believe what Jesus and Paul said. I believe what Ignatius of Antioch (a student of the Apostle John) and the writers of the Didache said. I believe them over your opinion.

I agree with you on one thing: Don't believe everything YOU think. Especially when what YOU think is not backed up by scripture or the practices and beliefs of the early Christians who walked and talked with the apostles.