Who Is "the Restrainer" In 2 Thess. 2:6-7

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Phoneman777

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ATP said:
The antichrist spirit is not only filled with hate for the Jews, rather he loves confusion. He's an expert at it, and he's got you good "bro".
The Antichrist hates everyone, else it wouldn't try to draw people away from the worship of God to itself. That's why it's called "Babylon" which in prophecy means "religious confusion", and the Papal Antichrist has everyone drunk on the wine of her false commandments and precepts. Wake up, bro, and give up your beloved Jesuit Futurism. Come home to Historicist Protestantism truth as it is in Jesus.
 

ATP

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Phoneman777 said:
The Antichrist hates everyone, else it wouldn't try to draw people away from the worship of God to itself. That's why it's called "Babylon" which in prophecy means "religious confusion", and the Papal Antichrist has everyone drunk on the wine of her false commandments and precepts. Wake up, bro, and give up your beloved Jesuit Futurism. Come home to Historicist Protestantism truth as it is in Jesus.
And you underestimate God's compassion and mercy for human beings. Explain Rom 11:26, 31, if you're trying to convince the crowd and all....
 

Marilyn C

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Polar said:
In 2 Thess 2:6-7 it talks about the restrainer who is holding back evil and lawlessness.I am curious as to what people here think Paul is talking about.I am pressed for time so I will return later to read what is said and to give my personal opinion.Please...keep it simple and only post Bible verses if they actually directly pertain to this specific topic.Again, directly pertain to this specific topic. It is so difficult to wade through some threads here because some people seem to think volume equates quality.Thank you in advance.
Hi Polar,

Good topic. Now as it is the Holy Spirit that is building & maturing the Body of Christ under the direction of the Head - Christ, then we can be assured that He will restrain man`s agenda. This will be till the Body of Christ comes to the unity of the faith under the guidance of the Hoy Spirit & then taken to its eternal setting in the heavenlies.

`till we all come to the unity of the faith & the knowledge of the Son of God...` (Eph. 4: 13)

As this is still ongoing we know that the holy Spirit is restraining the spirit of the age which desires to accomplish its agenda. However God is overall & the Body of Christ is the first off the rank to be taken to its setting in glory to judge the world system & fallen angels.(1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3) Then when we have gone to our calling, then the Holy Spirit will be active in people`s lives drawing them to God, BUT they will not be set in the Body of Christ as that purpose will have been competed. These other believers will be of the nations & come under Israel`s rule in the millennium if they reach out to God & protect the Jews in time of persecution.

We always need to put every detail we are looking at in relation to what God`s purpose is other wise it is just speculation.

Marilyn.
 

Angelina

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The tribes of Joseph are Ephraim and Manasseh, not Judah. The ten Northern tribes remain scattered among the nations, as many as the sands of the sea.
True...

They are the majority of the true Christians of the world, you and I will belong to one of them. All will be revealed when we go to live in the holy Land.
Christians are followers of Christ. If they also follow Christ then that statement is true...

Can't you see that Christians are Israelites? I posted 79 verses proving that.
When we do live in Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, the Jewish remnant with us will be so ashamed, they will not open their mouths. Ezekiel 16:63
Christians are not Israelites. I do not believe in the replacement theology and besides the bible teaches that Jesus has made the two into one new man...

Ephesians 2
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
 

Saint

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[SIZE=11pt]The Ten Tribes were divorced by God in Jeremiah 3:8 but in Hosea 2:16 God says they will again call Him My Husband. It would really help if people would read and understand the prophets [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Whom He also called, not only us, of Jews, but also out of nations. As also He says in Hosea, I will call those Not My people, My people! And those not beloved, Beloved! Hosea 2:23 "And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them, You are not My people, there they will be called, "Sons of the Living God." LXX-Hos. 2:1; MT-Hos. 2:23[/SIZE] But Isaiah cries on behalf of Israel, "If the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, the remnant will be saved."
[SIZE=11pt](Rom 9:24-27)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]In Genesis 48;18 Jacob says the Ephraim would become the Fullness of he Nations[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]And his father refused and said, I know, my son, I know. He also shall be a people, and he shall become great. But his younger brother shall become greater than he, and his seed shall become the fullness of the nations. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt](Gen 48:19)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be wise within yourselves, that hardness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the nations comes in; [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt](Rom 11:25)[/SIZE]
 

ATP

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Angelina said:
Christians are not Israelites. I do not believe in the replacement theology and besides the bible teaches that Jesus has made the two into one new man...
You got that right. :)
 

keras

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Angelina said:
Christians are not Israelites. I do not believe in the replacement theology and besides the bible teaches that Jesus has made the two into one new man...
This an ambiguous statement.
I know its hard to get our heads around this issue.
1/ Israelis is the name for the people living in the State of Israel. They may or may not be actual true descendants of Judah.
2/ Israelite is the name for the descendants of Jacob and his twelve sons. No one now knows for sure who they all might be, there are plenty of indications, however, that they are now among the Western nations and are as many as the sands of the sea.
3/ But we have the many teachings of the New Testament, how believing Christians are now deemed to be the Israel of God. Galatians 3:29 puts it best.
4/ God has promised to gather His people into all of the holy Land. He will do this before the Return of Jesus because it will be them who will proclaim the coming Kingdom, Isaiah 66:19, and they will finally be the people God always intended to live there; being His witnesses and displaying His light to the nations. Isaiah 42:6, Isaiah 43:10
This will also fulfil His promises to the Patriarchs.

Another fact, is that after all the generations since Jacob: he lived circa 1900BC, 3916 years ago, divided by 40, equals about 1000 generations. So it can be mathematically proved that in 1000 generations, we all must have at least a touch of Israelite blood. True descent is a non-issue. Belief in God and acceptance of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus is all important.
 

ATP

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keras said:
This an ambiguous statement.
I know its hard to get our heads around this issue.
1/ Israelis is the name for the people living in the State of Israel. They may or may not be actual true descendants of Judah.
2/ Israelite is the name for the descendants of Jacob and his twelve sons. No one now knows for sure who they all might be, there are plenty of indications, however, that they are now among the Western nations and are as many as the sands of the sea.
3/ But we have the many teachings of the New Testament, how believing Christians are now deemed to be the Israel of God. Galatians 3:29 puts it best.
4/ God has promised to gather His people into all of the holy Land. He will do this before the Return of Jesus because it will be them who will proclaim the coming Kingdom, Isaiah 66:19, and they will finally be the people God always intended to live there; being His witnesses and displaying His light to the nations. Isaiah 42:6, Isaiah 43:10
This will also fulfil His promises to the Patriarchs.

Another fact, is that after all the generations since Jacob: he lived circa 1900BC, 3916 years ago, divided by 40, equals about 1000 generations. So it can be mathematically proved that in 1000 generations, we all must have at least a touch of Israelite blood. True descent is a non-issue. Belief in God and acceptance of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus is all important.
Your thoughts on Rom 11:26, 31.
 

ATP

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Angelina said:
Christians are not Israelites. I do not believe in the replacement theology and besides the bible teaches that Jesus has made the two into one new man...
The reason keras believes in replacement theology is because he doesn't believe in a rapture before God's wrath is poured out, when scripture says we are not appointed to wrath.

Job 21:30 NIV that the wicked are spared from the day of calamity, that they are delivered from the day of wrath?

Isa 26:20 NIV Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.

Dan 12:1-2 NIV "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered. 2Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matt 3:12 NIV His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

John 3:36 NIV Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them.

Rom 5:9 NIV Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!

Eph 2:3 NIV All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

1 Thess 1:10 NIV and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

1 Thess 5:9 NIV For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
 

Phoneman777

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ATP said:
And you underestimate God's compassion and mercy for human beings. Explain Rom 11:26, 31, if you're trying to convince the crowd and all....
Verse 26: "Israel" that is to be saved refers to the one and only existing "the Israel of God" - those who are in Christ - not those who refer to Jesus as "The Great Imposter" and "son of a whore".

Verse 31: How did you and I obtain mercy? Corporately? No, individually. It is the same with those who now occupy the land of ancient Israel as well as all others. There's nothing here that denotes national deliverance of the "Israel" you speak of, unless you are a believer in the ridiculous idea of "Liberation Theology", that is.
 

Phoneman777

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Angelina said:
Christians are not Israelites.
Kinda hard to accept that when Paul specifically refers to us as "the Israel of God".
 

ATP

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Phoneman777 said:
Verse 26: "Israel" that is to be saved refers to the one and only existing "the Israel of God" - those who are in Christ - not those who refer to Jesus as "The Great Imposter" and "son of a whore".
Notice it mentions two different people here. Israel's hardening vs the Gentiles...

Rom 11:25 NIV I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

Phoneman777 said:
Verse 31: How did you and I obtain mercy? Corporately? No, individually. It is the same with those who now occupy the land of ancient Israel as well as all others. There's nothing here that denotes national deliverance of the "Israel" you speak of, unless you are a believer in the ridiculous idea of "Liberation Theology", that is.
Again, two different people here...

1. they are enemies vs the election
2. just as you (Gentiles) who were at one time disobedient vs so they too (Jews) have now become disobedient

Rom 11:28-32 NIV As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

- ATP
 

Marilyn C

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Phoneman777 said:


Kinda hard to accept that when Paul specifically refers to us as "the Israel of God".
Hi Phoneman777,

I actually think that the scripture you are referring to says `AND UPON THE ISRAEL OF GOD.` That looks to me like a difference. What do you think?

`And as many as walk according to this rule, peace & mercy be upon them, (Body of Christ) AND upon the Israel of God.` (Gal. 6: 16)

Marilyn.
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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Phoneman777 said:
Kinda hard to accept that when Paul specifically refers to us as "the Israel of God".
Taken one way, we are the "true Israel" which God desires: those with a heart towards Him.

This does not mean we are Israelites; that is a mistake rabbi keras makes as well. Such thinking leads to Replacement Theory and has God abandoning the Jews.


Marilyn C said:
Hi Phoneman777,

I actually think that the scripture you are referring to says `AND UPON THE ISRAEL OF GOD.` That looks to me like a difference. What do you think?

`And as many as walk according to this rule, peace & mercy be upon them, (Body of Christ) AND upon the Israel of God.` (Gal. 6: 16)

Marilyn.
From the Expositor's Bible Commentary notes on Gal 6:16

16 There are two ways in which the "and" (καί, G2779,, kai) of this verse may be taken. It may be a simple connective, in which case Paul's final words would be directed to all who among the Gentiles walk according to the truth of the gospel and to Israel. This would not mean "unbelieving Israel," of course. It would refer to Christian Judaism. But it would, nevertheless, be somewhat of an olive- branch stretched out to the Jewish side of Christianity.

On the other hand, kai may have the sense of "even," in which case there would not be two parties and two benedictions (as Burton holds) but one group containing both Jews and Gentiles, which Paul now designates as God's Israel. This second use is much bolder, but it is probably the one in view here. One can hardly suppose Paul to be distinguishing two distinct branches of Christianity now after his lengthy insistence upon one gospel throughout the letter and his closing insistence upon the one rule by which those who believe the gospel are to walk. The point is that a true Jew is not one who is a child of Abraham according to the flesh, but rather a child of God through the new birth by grace according to God's Spirit.

This is their commentary which uses the second meaning of kai:

(Note) 16 Has anyone yet missed the point? If so, Paul will state it once again in even starker language-- "Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God" (cf. the blessings of Pss 125:5; 128:6). This statement makes three points:(1) the peace and mercy of God are given only to those who adhere to this gospel; (2) all who believe the gospel, so it is implied, have an obligation to continue walking in it; and (3) these, and these only, are the true Israel. In this verse "rule" (kanon) clearly refers to the heart of the gospel just enunciated; but it may also be applied to the "canon" of Scripture (as the church later used the word) and to the whole of Christian doctrine. It is sometimes said that those who are concerned with the essence of the gospel and with true doctrine are the disrupters of the church, but Paul says the opposite. The truth is that the gospel is the real promoter of peace and is the channel of God's mercy. There can be no peace or mercy for the church when those responsible for following this "rule" depart from it.

So even in the second meaning of kai, joining the "the Israel of God" to those who follow the Gospel, there is no larger eschatological implication saying Israel is no more.

Nor does this wipe out the promises and prophecies made to natural borne Israel regarding a time yet unrealized when they will live under their Messiah King.
 

Phoneman777

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Marilyn C said:
Hi Phoneman777,

I actually think that the scripture you are referring to says `AND UPON THE ISRAEL OF GOD.` That looks to me like a difference. What do you think?

`And as many as walk according to this rule, peace & mercy be upon them, (Body of Christ) AND upon the Israel of God.` (Gal. 6: 16)

Marilyn.
Let's look at this from a perspective of plain old, down to earth, common sense Christianity:
In Galatians 6, Paul's entire focus is on Christ:
  • the law of Christ (vs. 2)
  • everlasting life by the indwelling Spirit of Christ (vs. 8)
  • persecution by reason of the Cross of Christ (vs. 12)
  • the glory which is found in the Cross of Christ (vs. 14)
  • the rule that we are new creatures in Christ (vs. 15)
  • and finally, the grace of Christ (vs. 18).
Regarding his closing blessing upon the body of Christ and "the Israel of God" in question, unless you are a Catholic who believes the blasphemous statement found in the priest's handbook, Dignities and Duties of the Priest, "The sentence of the priest precedes, and God subscribes to it," you will no doubt understand that a pronounced blessing by an individual is conditional upon the will of God. Therefore, why would Paul here be found pronouncing "peace" and "mercy" on literal Israel if this same Paul - who had such an intimate knowledge and experience with God so much so that he had to receive a thorn in the flesh just to keep him humble - had foreknowledge of the "wrath" which was to come upon them (1 Thessalonians 2:16 KJV), "death" which was to come upon them (Acts 13:46 KJV), destruction which was to come upon them (Matthew 24), etc.?

While it is not impossible that Paul could very well be including apostate Israel in his blessing, is it really intellectually honest, as well as hermeneutically sound, to claim that he is, rather than seeing "the Israel of God" as having to do with what the rest of the entire chapter focus has to do: Christ?
 

ATP

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Marcus O'Reillius said:
Taken one way, we are the "true Israel" which God desires: those with a heart towards Him.

This does not mean we are Israelites; that is a mistake rabbi keras makes as well. Such thinking leads to Replacement Theory and has God abandoning the Jews.



From the Expositor's Bible Commentary notes on Gal 6:16

16 There are two ways in which the "and" (καί, G2779,, kai) of this verse may be taken. It may be a simple connective, in which case Paul's final words would be directed to all who among the Gentiles walk according to the truth of the gospel and to Israel. This would not mean "unbelieving Israel," of course. It would refer to Christian Judaism. But it would, nevertheless, be somewhat of an olive- branch stretched out to the Jewish side of Christianity.

On the other hand, kai may have the sense of "even," in which case there would not be two parties and two benedictions (as Burton holds) but one group containing both Jews and Gentiles, which Paul now designates as God's Israel. This second use is much bolder, but it is probably the one in view here. One can hardly suppose Paul to be distinguishing two distinct branches of Christianity now after his lengthy insistence upon one gospel throughout the letter and his closing insistence upon the one rule by which those who believe the gospel are to walk. The point is that a true Jew is not one who is a child of Abraham according to the flesh, but rather a child of God through the new birth by grace according to God's Spirit.

This is their commentary which uses the second meaning of kai:

(Note) 16 Has anyone yet missed the point? If so, Paul will state it once again in even starker language-- "Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God" (cf. the blessings of Pss 125:5; 128:6). This statement makes three points:(1) the peace and mercy of God are given only to those who adhere to this gospel; (2) all who believe the gospel, so it is implied, have an obligation to continue walking in it; and (3) these, and these only, are the true Israel. In this verse "rule" (kanon) clearly refers to the heart of the gospel just enunciated; but it may also be applied to the "canon" of Scripture (as the church later used the word) and to the whole of Christian doctrine. It is sometimes said that those who are concerned with the essence of the gospel and with true doctrine are the disrupters of the church, but Paul says the opposite. The truth is that the gospel is the real promoter of peace and is the channel of God's mercy. There can be no peace or mercy for the church when those responsible for following this "rule" depart from it.

So even in the second meaning of kai, joining the "the Israel of God" to those who follow the Gospel, there is no larger eschatological implication saying Israel is no more.

Nor does this wipe out the promises and prophecies made to natural borne Israel regarding a time yet unrealized when they will live under their Messiah King.
Ignorance is bliss, huh Marcus. B)
 

keras

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I note how Marcus continues to denigrate me, in his rude and unchristian manner.
He demonstrates his ignorance and bias in every thing he says, even thought he does have euridite arguments, they are all slanted toward promoting his mindset of a rapture removal to heaven. A false and unscriptural theory.

Re who is Israel. I saw a good article on how there has been at least 1000 generations since Abraham.
If you do a calculation of your ancestors, 2 parents, 4 Grandparents, 8 gg parents, 16, ggg parents, etc you very quickly get to astronomical numbers. Therefore, every living person today has at least a touch of Abrahams blood line.
Anyway Galatians 3:27-29 couldn't be clearer. True Christians are the heirs of the Promises.
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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Dear rabbi keras, O mighty writer of Bible study guides:

Woe be unto them who let the blind lead the blind, because both fall into the pit of egregious exegesis.

As long as you blindly misappropriate every Old Testament verse for Israel to be for the Church,
As long as you blindly misinterpret Isaiah 30:26, which is on a day when God heals the Remnant; for being an exploding sun on the Day of the Lord,

You will forever have your foolish ideas treated with all the respect foolish talk deserves.
 

keras

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ATP said:
But Rom 11:25-31 mentions two different people.
Even though Paul uses the term 'Israel' in a lot of his writing, it is obvious he means just the Jewish people. He is referring to the 'blindness' of the Jews. And he uses 'gentile' to refer to all the other true Christian peoples, who would include those descendants of the other tribes of Israel. Ephesians 2:11-18 describes it well.
These facts are well known to most Bible scholars.
Only your determination to fit in rapture somewhere, anywhere, makes you have a separation between the Israel of God and the Church of God.