Trial run... Or the real thing?

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Brakelite

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Ah, hmmm. "The Day of the Lord doesn't immediately precede the Day of the Lords return". I feel I must question the soundness of that sentence, especially in light of what the bible teaches.

Matthew 24:29–31
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


The Olivet Discourse is the most recognized passage about the end times...that is, outside of apocalyptic literature (Revelation), that gives us a decent grasp on events. This passage tells us that after a period of tribulation we can expect cosmic events to immediately precede Christs appearance on the clouds. As he appears, he will send his angels out with a trumpet call to gather his elect to him. As the people of earth see all this, they will mourn.

We can find other passages in scripture to back up these events:

1 Corinthians 15:52
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

2 Thessalonians 2:1–9
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, [who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders,


We can see, especially in 2 Thess 2, that the 'Day of the Lord', corresponds with the 'coming of the Lord' AND the final judgement of the wicked. And also, in the below passages, the same thing....they speak of Christ's coming and the judgement upon the wicked...even the renewing of the earth!

1 Corinthians 15:23–28
But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.


2 Peter 3:4–10
They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed
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As far as the judgements in Revelation goes...that's a huge topic that would take an entire post by itself...or even a thread. However...just to let you know where I stand on it...I believe the visions of Revelation are given in the form of recapitulation. In other words, there is a few main points, main visions, then they are shown again and again from different angles...from earth, from heaven, that sort of thing. We see the...ah...ferocity...of them increasing...leading to the crescendo of the book...the destruction of Satan and death and the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven. One of the reasons we can know we have recapitulation within the book is because we see, at the end of each of the 'judgements', a theophany. The cataclysmic natural events and fearful responses from the 'peoples of the nations' in the face of God.

Revelation 6:12–17
When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

Revelation 11:15, 19
Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”...Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.

Revelation 16:17–21
The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as there had never been since man was on the earth, so great was that earthquake. The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath. And every island fled away, and no mountains were to be found. And great hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, fell from heaven on people; and they cursed God for the plague of the hail, because the plague was so severe
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We see the description of Christ's return in Chapter 19, but we can see in these previous chapters that the peoples of the earth see his face and the face of the One on the Throne...the anger of their wrath. That the world 'has become' the Kingdom of the Lord and of his Christ, forever. And a great announcement from the Throne that it was "done"! And that all these things are accompanied by cosmic disturbances that Jesus tells us in Matthew will announce his return. And, of course, we know from the OT that these things, the lightning, the peals of thunder, were classic signs of a theophany.

So...all that to say....I believe the bible speaks of cosmic events, but they will precede Christs return only by moments. And that when the bible speaks of the Day of the Lord, yes, its speaking of judgement, but its also speaking of the day Christ returns and brings it. It is one and the same.
Think about this a moment... How big a difference would it make to your general perception of prophetic time if you discovered that the "falling away" spoken of by Paul in Thessalonians began to transpire immediately after the apostolic age, accelerated exponentially during the dark ages, was itself the expression of the man of sin within the church, and not a future phenomenon yet to be seen?
 

Dcopymope

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There is an ad on TV here which you may have seen informing us that one Australian dies of cancer every 12 minutes. Cancer is also a virus. But if you can't "catch' cancer, why can you "catch' covid?


Not in specifics, no. But there are certainly many general signs, even with specific dates that introduce them, in scripture.


I agree. But very few know it even try to understand who the beast is... How will they recognize his mark of they don't recognize him... Or it?

Well I believe that it will eventually become abundantly clear to every Christian who the beast is, when he sets himself in the temple, declares himself God, and speaks blasphemous things against the "God of gods". As for the mark itself, John of course says we can recognize it by the number 666. I believe that this is in reference to the sixth day of the creation of man, to keep it simple. If I am right, then John is likely trying to say that the mark will be sold to us as the beginning of a new human species, or a second Adam, as one might say. It will be claimed that if we take the mark, we can become just like the worlds favorite real life superman, the beast. This is how we will be able to recognizer the mark when we see it. I believe that this is why we are getting all this conditioning from Hollywood about extraordinary comic book characters, or "men of renown" as the Bible called the giants of Genesis 6 (there is that six again). I believe its all a set up for the beast and his mark. The Bible says the world will be coerced into taking the mark, but I also believe most people will salivate at the prospect of taking it.
 

Brakelite

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This will be confusing to the SDAs.
SDAs aren't confused. Nothing that has taken place over the last 150 years has led to any change in our church's understanding of prophecy. In fact, every other Christian Church had had to change their eschatological views, but ours still harmonise with current events.
Watch for the Pope to give a speech.
There was a major meeting due to be held at the Vatican on May 14....Pope Francis encourages religious and political leaders to sign a global pact on education

But had to be postponed due to the current circumstances. This was to be a major event. It will now be held in October, and you can be sure that the current virus will be used as motivation to agree. By the way, May 14 is St Corona day.
Whatever the Pope says for us to do at that point will amount to the mark of the beast.
And the majority of Christendom will accept it.
 

Keraz

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Keraz....what are you saying? So what am I believing in again? Do I present a decision point to the reader: believe man ('them') or believe God and his plans somewhere in my words? I missed this conclusion that you thought I made. I was only suggesting that there is potential of some type of evil foul play here with this current virus pandemic. Nothing more and certainly not even addressing the plans of God at all. Please elaborate on what I'm supposedly believing in. Thanks

APAK
Sorry for any misunderstanding.
What I want to point out is whatever people plan or devise, God will have His way. And we are told His Plans by the ancient prophets.
What they said about Jesus first Advent was literally fulfilled. So it will be for His Return and the events leading up to that glorious Day.
 
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Naomi25

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There is an ad on TV here which you may have seen informing us that one Australian dies of cancer every 12 minutes. Cancer is also a virus. But if you can't "catch' cancer, why can you "catch' covid?
Are you saying that MERS wasn't airborne? I don't remember much about it except that it was fairly deadly.
I mean, in general...when you see how things are in the really hard hit areas...where they're having 800 dead a day, then sure...I suppose its easy to say its perhaps not an over-reaction. That many people (and that number was just those who died!) coming into ICU must surely be too much for any emergency system.
It's just a bit distant from where we are, really. Australia is such a big Country and I live in such a remote area. It feels foolish to be stuck inside when the virus hasn't come near us yet! Still, we're all obeying the rules in our little town, and it's nice to see no-ones turned nasty. Our sense of humour is still fully intact...here's hoping that stays if this indeed lasts months!

Not in specifics, no. But there are certainly many general signs, even with specific dates that introduce them, in scripture.
Really? Dates? That's....bold. Unless you're speaking of the declaration in Daniel for the building of Jerusalem. I can't actually think of any other example that would have a date attached in any non-date-setty way....oh, expect maybe the destruction of the Temple in 70AD. I'd love to know what you're referring to...and I promise I won't play devil's advocate this time! Honestly just interested in what you're talking about!

I agree that there are general signs, but the problem with general signs is...they're general! For example....if we look at the Olivet Discourse and see Christ points the 'birth pangs' as things that might happen in the lead up to the end, we can fairly legitimately say that 'false Christs, earthquakes, wars and rumors of wars, famines', etc will proceed his return, and will do so in an increasing frequency and intensity. The problem with using these things as a yard stick, however, is that we don't really know what sort of a numbering system we're working on. What was 1, and was is 10, if that's what we're working with? Just because the signs are a lot worse now than they were a decade ago, that doesn't mean we're not still sitting on 5, if you know what I mean.
 

Naomi25

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Think about this a moment... How big a difference would it make to your general perception of prophetic time if you discovered that the "falling away" spoken of by Paul in Thessalonians began to transpire immediately after the apostolic age, accelerated exponentially during the dark ages, was itself the expression of the man of sin within the church, and not a future phenomenon yet to be seen?
I suppose that depends on whether or not you're attempting to tell me I'm an apostate or not! :p
 

APAK

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Sorry for any misunderstanding.
What I want to point out is whatever people plan or devise, God will have His way. And we are told His Plans by the ancient prophets.
What they said about Jesus first Advent was literally fulfilled. So it will be for His Return and the events leading up to that glorious Day.

Thank you sir...great week...give our God the glory....APAK
 

Naomi25

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Think about this a moment... How big a difference would it make to your general perception of prophetic time if you discovered that the "falling away" spoken of by Paul in Thessalonians began to transpire immediately after the apostolic age, accelerated exponentially during the dark ages, was itself the expression of the man of sin within the church, and not a future phenomenon yet to be seen?
So, I've been mulling over this, and I'm not entirely sure it does "make a difference" to my general perception of prophetic timelines. As an Amillennial, I tend to see both Revelation and "the tribulation period" as a period of time that stretches between the time of Christ's ascension and his return. I'll try and flesh that out a tiny bit, as it might sound just a bit strange for the two to be concurrent.
At Christ's ascension we're told in scripture that he took his seat at the right hand of the Father, where he is above all powers, principalities and authorities. Where he rules and makes intercessions for us. We're also told that there, he will rule until the end of the age and he 'defeats the last enemy...death'. That would be at his second coming. It is at this point that he 'hands the Kingdom over to his Father'. This is the end of the Millennium, and the beginning of the eternal age, the age to come.
We also say that the tribulation has stretched throughout this time as well, because it's also something clearly taught in scripture, and we see it throughout history and played out in our own news headlines. In this world we will have 'tribulations'. We will suffer and die for our faith, but the promise to us is the gates of hell will not prevail against the the power of the gospel. As Tertullian famously said; the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the gospel. We can expect this tribulation to increase in intensity and viciousness the closer we get to Christ's return...and yes, I expect apostasy will increase. But it is something we have seen all throughout history.
Hope that makes sense in regards to what I believe!
 

Brakelite

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So, I've been mulling over this, and I'm not entirely sure it does "make a difference" to my general perception of prophetic timelines. As an Amillennial, I tend to see both Revelation and "the tribulation period" as a period of time that stretches between the time of Christ's ascension and his return. I'll try and flesh that out a tiny bit, as it might sound just a bit strange for the two to be concurrent.
At Christ's ascension we're told in scripture that he took his seat at the right hand of the Father, where he is above all powers, principalities and authorities. Where he rules and makes intercessions for us. We're also told that there, he will rule until the end of the age and he 'defeats the last enemy...death'. That would be at his second coming. It is at this point that he 'hands the Kingdom over to his Father'. This is the end of the Millennium, and the beginning of the eternal age, the age to come.
We also say that the tribulation has stretched throughout this time as well, because it's also something clearly taught in scripture, and we see it throughout history and played out in our own news headlines. In this world we will have 'tribulations'. We will suffer and die for our faith, but the promise to us is the gates of hell will not prevail against the the power of the gospel. As Tertullian famously said; the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the gospel. We can expect this tribulation to increase in intensity and viciousness the closer we get to Christ's return...and yes, I expect apostasy will increase. But it is something we have seen all throughout history.
Hope that makes sense in regards to what I believe!
Yes, I get where you are at. So for you the 1000 years is metaphorical? But what of Satan being bound throughout that time?
 

Dcopymope

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Yes, I get where you are at. So for you the 1000 years is metaphorical? But what of Satan being bound throughout that time?

She claims his return marks the end of the millennium, going by her logic, THIS ENTIRE TIME, ever since Jesus rose from the dead, Satan was already bound in the pit, since at the end of the millennium, Satan is "let loose" to deceive the nations. That makes Peter a liar when he said Satan has been free to roam to and fro the earth as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. I'm trying to hold out hope that reason will prevail on this site, just for once, when interpreting scripture but it just ain't happening. :confused:
 

Naomi25

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Yes, I get where you are at. So for you the 1000 years is metaphorical? But what of Satan being bound throughout that time?
Yes, metaphorical. In the same way other biblical verses tell us God 'owns the cattle on a thousand hills', or 'a day in his court is better than a thousand elsewhere'...clearly the author intends to tell us that God owns all the cattle, and that a day in his courts is better than all else. 1000 is usually used to symbolize a large, and when done, 'complete amount of time' sort of number.
As far as Satan, yeah, we get that a lot! It's actually not that complicated. Rev 20, when read without an expectation that 'to be bound' HAS to mean absolutely and completely stopped, makes it clear. It tells us. It says that Satan is bound SO he cannot deceive the nations. We point back to where Jesus sends out the 70 to preach the gospel, and when they come back, amazed at their authority over demons in His name, he tells them the he 'saw Satan fall like lightning'. We also see Jesus telling his opponents that in order for him to 'plunder the strong mans house' he had to bind him. What sort of plundering did Christ come to do? What sort of thing is Satan now bound against? The going forth of the gospel. And we can see this again as we read on in Revelation 20. When Satan is 'released' from being bound, what does he do? He goes forth to deceive the nations....to gather them to battle against the Saints. If we look at 2 Thess 2, we see Paul telling us that the final Antichrist is being restrained. There is a 'restrainer' in place. But just before the end, the restrainer will be taken out of the way, and the Antichrist....who comes in the power of Satan...with deceiving lies, to deceive the nations...makes war on the Saints.
Basically, what we're saying is this: while Christians have had to deal with persecution over the years, there has been a divine mandate upon Satan...he and his minions have been restrained from gathering together the peoples of this world in a concerted effort (Armageddon if you like) to wipe the people of God and the gospel they carry, off the face of the earth. We have been free, since the cross, to take the gospel to all nations, not just the Jewish one. There will come a time when that mandate will lift and Satan will be able to bring all his wrath against us for a short time.
 

Naomi25

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She claims his return marks the end of the millennium, going by her logic, THIS ENTIRE TIME, ever since Jesus rose from the dead, Satan was already bound in the pit, since at the end of the millennium, Satan is "let loose" to deceive the nations. That makes Peter a liar when he said Satan has been free to roam to and fro the earth as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. I'm trying to hold out hope that reason will prevail on this site, just for once, when interpreting scripture but it just ain't happening. :confused:

It's one thing to disagree with someone over theological differences...as we all do here...but I find it a little on the nose to have you basically say that I'm making Peter a liar. If you don't agree with me, say so. If you find my exegesis troubling, show me where I'm wrong. As I'm about to do with you.
IF you'll read Revelation, you will see that it in no way states at all that Satan is restricted from EVERYTHING. If you will recall in the book of Job, God is most capable of telling Satan he may do (x), but not (y)...all the while Satan is still free to 'roam' about.

Revelation 20:3
and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.
Revelation 20:7–9
And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,



Peter tells us that Satan roams about, seeking whom he may devour. Well and good...or not, as the case may be...but devouring is not deceiving, is it?
I should hope you know your bible well enough to remember the basic story line. Do you remember who salvation was offered to initially? Before the cross? It was to Israel only, wasn't it? 'The nations' were gentile, left to pagan gods and to a fate of deception under Satan. What happened after the cross? The gospel went forth...the nations began to suck in the good news like a hungry sponge. Let me ask one final question; if Satan was truly the absolute, uncontested god and king of this world...would that be able to happen? Would he allow the news of Christ's triumph to go forth, rescuing and saving hundreds and thousands of souls away from Satan? No. Not even a little bit. And given the evil that resides in Satan and man itself, that Satan has no trouble whispering up into a frenzy, if Satan wasn't 'bound' from wiping Christianity and the gospel from this earth, he would have done so by now.
 

Paul Christensen

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Jesus said that when He comes again, people will be living normal lives, eating, drinking and giving in marriage, as it was in the days of Noah. Before the Coronavirus crisis, that is exactly what we all were doing, and when it has passed and life returns to normal, which it will, then life will go on as before. The people in Noah's day were just going about their normal every day lives, and suddenly, without warning the Flood happened. It was not a gradual thing. Everything was normal and suddenly it was not. This is why we have fossils of fish with a half eaten fish in its mouth, and mammoths with grass still in their mouths. These didn't have any time to swallow their food before the cataclysm of the Flood burst upon them. It not only rained from above and a great torrent, but the crust of the earth was broken up with such force that water, lava, and mud poured over all the earth, pushing Mt Everest up to the height it is at now.

It makes me think of the last words of the mayor of Hiroshima:
"What the f... was that?" People in Hiroshima would have had still had mouthfuls of breakfast when "whoof" they were vaporised. That's how sudden the Flood was, and that will be how sudden the second coming of Christ will be.

But there are certain prophesied events that still have to happen, and the Coronavirus is just one of the prophesied pestilences that will come upon the world. There is still more to come even worse as the end gets closer.
 

Dcopymope

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The papal system. Answers to every criteria re the Antichrist including that passage from Thessalonians. I could give details of you like. Same details the reformers observed, without exception, and which brought them to the same conclusion.

Well John gives no indications that the "woman" of revelation or the "beast" points to the papal system at all. So I'm certain the Roman Catholic Church is a classic example of a red herring foisted on us by Satan, while the true beast will rise in Jerusalem, as John plainly states. Its easy to point the finger at the papacy, and that's exactly what Satan wants us to do. I think like the enemy, its what I'd want if I were Satan.
 

Keraz

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The papal system. Answers to every criteria re the Antichrist including that passage from Thessalonians. I could give details of you like. Same details the reformers observed, without exception, and which brought them to the same conclusion.
The RCC is mentioned in Revelation 17:1-6, and Revelation 17:15-18 tells of its demise.
Note; in verse 17, that the 'beast', the Anti-Christ leader of the World government, will take over the sovereignty and will enforce worship of himself. Revelation 13:11-16
For the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns and defeats him. Revelation 20:1-2
 

Naomi25

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The papal system. Answers to every criteria re the Antichrist including that passage from Thessalonians. I could give details of you like. Same details the reformers observed, without exception, and which brought them to the same conclusion.
I agree that there are many....aspects...of the RCC that, as you pointed out that the reformers pointed out, are not biblical. However, where I have real trouble trying to see it from your perspective is that while they have many peripheral teachings that are fishy, many of their core teachings are not, and have seen hundreds, if not thousands of people truly coming to Christ. Does that not strike you as a very poor 'Antichrist' for Satan to have set up?
I can understand that you look at Revelation to where it says "come out of her my people", to say that yes, many true Christians dwell within Babylon...but...does that mean you are saying Babylon and the AC are essentially the same?
Just on a side note...I do wonder what the reformers would say about the current Pope. Talk about fishy....
 
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Joseph77

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I agree that there are many....aspects...of the RCC that, as you pointed out that the reformers pointed out, are not biblical. However, where I have real trouble trying to see it from your perspective is that while they have many peripheral teachings that are fishy, many of their core teachings are not, and have seen hundreds, if not thousands of people truly coming to Christ. Does that not strike you as a very poor 'Antichrist' for Satan to have set up?
I can understand that you look at Revelation to where it says "come out of her my people", to say that yes, many true Christians dwell within Babylon...but...does that mean you are saying Babylon and the AC are essentially the same?
Just on a side note...I do wonder what the reformers would say about the current Pope. Talk about fishy....
The deception was exposed hundreds, even thousands, of years ago.

What is claimed "truly coming to Christ" is not correct. No, not at all. (by their own testimonies/ their own words/ and the results/ and the teachings (which are bad) .... ?

IF it can still be found and read (you won't be able to read much at a time, probably) , see "50 years in the church of rome" by a priest who exposes the total corruption from the inside out, totally Scripturally showing the utter folly involved in the false gospel ...

Likewise, Keith Green's "The Catholic Chronicles" which includes the expose on the abomination of the mass, and of the confessional (both demonic - both directly contrary to all Scripture)
 
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