Trial run... Or the real thing?

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Joseph77

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The papal system. Answers to every criteria re the Antichrist including that passage from Thessalonians. I could give details of you like. Same details the reformers observed, without exception, and which brought them to the same conclusion.

Yes, everyone to whom Jesus and His Father in heaven revealed the truth, agree with the reformers in that they identified the anti-christ nature of the system of rome. Everyone from all the centuries applicable.
 

Naomi25

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The deception was exposed hundreds, even thousands, of years ago.

What is claimed "truly coming to Christ" is not correct. No, not at all. (by their own testimonies/ their own words/ and the results/ and the teachings (which are bad) .... ?

IF it can still be found and read (you won't be able to read much at a time, probably) , see "50 years in the church of rome" by a priest who exposes the total corruption from the inside out, totally Scripturally showing the utter folly involved in the false gospel ...

Likewise, Keith Green's "The Catholic Chronicles" which includes the expose on the abomination of the mass, and of the confessional (both demonic - both directly contrary to all Scripture)

The problem is, I know several people who attend the Catholic Church who are deeply devoted to Jesus as their Lord. And while, no, I cannot honestly say if that faith will stand the test of time, neither can you know if that love and devotion is not as genuine as it seems.
It is simply not on for you to announce those people 'lost and evil' just because it's part of your structure that the RCC is the Antichrist. You must deal with it both in a biblical sound and just way that is not biased based solely on a preconceived view. And so I am asking for a legitimate answer to the question, because I believe its a fair one. And I do so acknowledging that there are, yes, things about the RCC that do give you leave to look at it in the light you do. Any sound doctrine ought to be able to answer the tough questions, and this, I believe is one. Simply dismissing all those people who love Jesus as "well they don't really" is not a decent answer.
 

Joseph77

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The problem is, I know several people who attend the Catholic Church who are deeply devoted to Jesus as their Lord. And while, no, I cannot honestly say if that faith will stand the test of time, neither can you know if that love and devotion is not as genuine as it seems.
Go by God's Word, and the Revelation of Truth in and through Jesus as revealed in His Word.
No one can serve two masters.
 

Joseph77

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If they are "good" Catholics (by Rome's definitions), they cannot be serving God the Almighty Creator, nor Jesus.

What happens when someone learns the truth ? They get kicked out. (or worse)
 

Naomi25

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Go by God's Word, and the Revelation of Truth in and through Jesus as revealed in His Word.
No one can serve two masters.
Well, that's the most marvelous non-answer I've ever received. Thank you. Cleared it right up. Very convincing.
 

Joseph77

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Well, that's the most marvelous non-answer I've ever received. Thank you. Cleared it right up. Very convincing.
? strange reply from you. Do you doubt Jesus' Word? He said and says today, no one can serve two masters. If they serve idols of catholicism, they cannot serve Jesus.
 

Brakelite

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Well John gives no indications that the "woman" of revelation or the "beast" points to the papal system at all. So I'm certain the Roman Catholic Church is a classic example of a red herring foisted on us by Satan, while the true beast will rise in Jerusalem, as John plainly states. Its easy to point the finger at the papacy, and that's exactly what Satan wants us to do. I think like the enemy, its what I'd want if I were Satan.
Mmmmm. It's such a red herring that 2 billion people are deceived into thinking they belong to the only true church.... That there is no other means by which to be saved other than through submission to papal teachings and authority... Such a red herring that most of the leaders of the secular world bow and scrape, kissing his ring and hang on every word the pope says.... Such a red herring that not even Protestants any more believe the papal system is Antichrist so see no reason not to go back to mother... Such a red herring that that the vast majority of the Christian world awaits a future individual to appear in Jerusalem and announce from the pulpit in a new temple that the world ought to worship him and the Christian world thinks such a scenario would be an act of deception? Who would be deceived? Everyone, bar none, is expecting that very thing. Yet the whole world will blithely fall down and worship this character????
What do you think is being the most deceptive? A counterfeit Christian ediface that purports to be the pillar and foundation of all truth and the only true descendant of Christian authority in the world, having one third of the world on its books with the majority of those members not knowing Christ, and in fact practicing amalgams of Christianity such as Santiria and voodoo with the full knowledge and approval of Rome, and the rest locked in by fear to ritualism and sacramentalism that offers nothing but a world of works based salvation and a false hope.... An institution that is guilty of the worst of crimes throughout it's history and had worked assiduously to cover them up and mitigate the effects... An institution that now is currently working with quiet determination to nullify the gospel throughout the world and encourage all other religions to unite with her in one global despotic tyranny, including mainline,Evangelical churches and independent Pentecostal churches in America.
Or, a future individual invented by anti Protestant Jesuits in the 16th century? Who is being deceived here? Which do you think is the red herring? Which has already answered to all the criteria needful to fulfill prophetic scripture? Why look ye for another?
 

Brakelite

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The problem is, I know several people who attend the Catholic Church who are deeply devoted to Jesus as their Lord. And while, no, I cannot honestly say if that faith will stand the test of time, neither can you know if that love and devotion is not as genuine as it seems.
It is simply not on for you to announce those people 'lost and evil' just because it's part of your structure that the RCC is the Antichrist. You must deal with it both in a biblical sound and just way that is not biased based solely on a preconceived view. And so I am asking for a legitimate answer to the question, because I believe its a fair one. And I do so acknowledging that there are, yes, things about the RCC that do give you leave to look at it in the light you do. Any sound doctrine ought to be able to answer the tough questions, and this, I believe is one. Simply dismissing all those people who love Jesus as "well they don't really" is not a decent answer.
As you may likely be aware of, I grew up in the Catholic Church. And I agree that then, and now, there are genuine Christians within that church who are living fully 100% according to what light and understanding they have. And God accepts them as His own. This however does not lessen in any way the truth that the Catholic Church is the Antichrist according to scripture. Those Christians within her are Christians despite the church, not because of her. And we do not know their hearts, thus we cannot pass judgement upon any of them... But we can pass judgement upon the institution itself. Catholics may believe that the Catholic and his church are one and the same, being, they believe, one body of Christ. Yet Jesus does say to Babylon, that great colossal composite whore of scripture, "let My people go"... And to His people, "come out of her". So yes, God has His people in that communion but He calls them out. If they stay, they shall be caught up in the final plagues and partake of the same misery as those who never knew Christ. It is time now to come out. We ought never give any searching soul, no sincere hungerer for truth, and encouragement to remain satisfied or content in their place. They must know the truth. Lives are at stake.
 

Brakelite

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does that mean you are saying Babylon and the AC are essentially the same?
The Antichrist as described and revealed in scripture is not an individual in the future. That interpretation of scripture was invented by and promoted by Jesuits at the height of the counter Reformation with the sole purpose to redirect the accusatory fingers of Protestants away from Rome to an imaginary future. And it has worked. Very few teach what the reformers taught... In fact it was one of the few things the reformers agreed on. And it wasn't motivated by resentment or hatred as some Catholics would claim. The reformers were all Bible students. They used the prophecies of Daniel, Paul, Jesus, and Revelation and elsewhere and came to the same conclusion. Independent studies today still reveal the same answers. And Rome hasn't changed in any way that can be used as a denial of those prophecies. In fact, as time marches toward the second coming, the reformers hermeneutic looks more and more authentic the closer we get. And the futurist paradigm less so. Unless of course one keeps extending the time. One can say anything about the future and claim it's true and biblical. But if it hasn't happened yet, it really cannot be corroborated. History however, and current events and a willingness to look a little deeper than the headlines offers the honest seeker for truth a clear vision of the future. And Rome has her grubby footprints all over it.
 

Naomi25

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? strange reply from you. Do you doubt Jesus' Word? He said and says today, no one can serve two masters. If they serve idols of catholicism, they cannot serve Jesus.

Well, perhaps it's only strange from your point of view! I told you these people loved and followed Jesus as their Lord and Saviour. They have a clear and visible passion for Christ...not the Pope. They attended mass, but pray to Jesus, acknowledge him for their salvation.
So...I believe my question still stands, and hence my 'thanks for the non-answer' answer. To me, you've seemingly once again made the instant assumption of the heart of these people.
Now...let's be brutally honest here. When Jesus was telling his Disciples that no one could serve two masters, he was, in point of fact, talking about the love of money. And IF we were going to expand the horizons of that particular lesson, it holds true for more than just the Pope. It holds true to any and everything we put in place of God. The question would be is: does every Catholic person think the Pope stands in the place of God? Or, do they view him as a wise man who leads their denomination? I know that is not what the RCC would teach about him, and I agree, what they DO strictly teach is not biblical. I have no love for the position of the Pope. But when you cite the "no one can serve two masters" verse and point to these people with it, you are essentially saying they have placed the Pope in the place of Christ in their affections. And again...this is not something I believe you can say with any sort of assurance. Not without claiming to be God yourself...and you see the problem there!
 

Naomi25

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As you may likely be aware of, I grew up in the Catholic Church. And I agree that then, and now, there are genuine Christians within that church who are living fully 100% according to what light and understanding they have. And God accepts them as His own. This however does not lessen in any way the truth that the Catholic Church is the Antichrist according to scripture. Those Christians within her are Christians despite the church, not because of her. And we do not know their hearts, thus we cannot pass judgement upon any of them... But we can pass judgement upon the institution itself. Catholics may believe that the Catholic and his church are one and the same, being, they believe, one body of Christ. Yet Jesus does say to Babylon, that great colossal composite whore of scripture, "let My people go"... And to His people, "come out of her". So yes, God has His people in that communion but He calls them out. If they stay, they shall be caught up in the final plagues and partake of the same misery as those who never knew Christ. It is time now to come out. We ought never give any searching soul, no sincere hungerer for truth, and encouragement to remain satisfied or content in their place. They must know the truth. Lives are at stake.

Hi Brakelite, thanks for your answer, and for not dismissing the...genuineness...of these people I know. For truly, it would be wrong to do so, I feel.
I was sitting here, pondering your answer, wondering where I go, which question I should ask next. And here's the thing...I don't doubt that the higher reaches of that 'church' is dirty. The Vatican, the deep structures of 'her'...really don't sit well with me, so I suppose you could say we're in agreement there...or at least...I'm open to the possibility you may have a point.
And then I was thinking...but how could Satan really be stupid enough to set up a system that would bring thousands of people to his arch nemesis? But then...it's those people that give the whole 'church' her validity, isn't it? That makes people like me stop and go 'now hang on, there are good, Christian people there, she can't be all bad'.
Hmm. I don't know...something to think about.

The Antichrist as described and revealed in scripture is not an individual in the future. That interpretation of scripture was invented by and promoted by Jesuits at the height of the counter Reformation with the sole purpose to redirect the accusatory fingers of Protestants away from Rome to an imaginary future. And it has worked. Very few teach what the reformers taught... In fact it was one of the few things the reformers agreed on. And it wasn't motivated by resentment or hatred as some Catholics would claim. The reformers were all Bible students. They used the prophecies of Daniel, Paul, Jesus, and Revelation and elsewhere and came to the same conclusion. Independent studies today still reveal the same answers. And Rome hasn't changed in any way that can be used as a denial of those prophecies. In fact, as time marches toward the second coming, the reformers hermeneutic looks more and more authentic the closer we get. And the futurist paradigm less so. Unless of course one keeps extending the time. One can say anything about the future and claim it's true and biblical. But if it hasn't happened yet, it really cannot be corroborated. History however, and current events and a willingness to look a little deeper than the headlines offers the honest seeker for truth a clear vision of the future. And Rome has her grubby footprints all over it.

Okay...so, question...if the AC isn't an 'individual', how is it that in 2 Thess 2 Paul refers specifically to a "man"? I can see that in most of the other references to this...evil, we could label it as a broader category, but in 2 Thess 2 it really seems like Paul is narrowing it down to a particular person.
And also...didn't the reformers point AT the Popes? That's a person isn't it? Are you saying that it was the 'future' element to it that was 'added'? But, again....there must be SOME future element to it, because 2 Thess 2 tells us the Christ will slay the AC when he appears.
Sorry...just trying to fit this all together. I know you've got a website...I've got plenty of reading time now! Point me to it if you want!!
 
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Joseph77

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Well, perhaps it's only strange from your point of view! I told you these people loved and followed Jesus as their Lord and Saviour. They have a clear and visible passion for Christ...not the Pope. They attended mass, but pray to Jesus, acknowledge him for their salvation.
Be honest here? The mass they practice is an abomination. It is idolatry. It is worse than anything you have ever done in your life (hopefully).
 

Brakelite

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Hi Brakelite, thanks for your answer, and for not dismissing the...genuineness...of these people I know. For truly, it would be wrong to do so, I feel.
I was sitting here, pondering your answer, wondering where I go, which question I should ask next. And here's the thing...I don't doubt that the higher reaches of that 'church' is dirty. The Vatican, the deep structures of 'her'...really don't sit well with me, so I suppose you could say we're in agreement there...or at least...I'm open to the possibility you may have a point.
And then I was thinking...but how could Satan really be stupid enough to set up a system that would bring thousands of people to his arch nemesis? But then...it's those people that give the whole 'church' her validity, isn't it? That makes people like me stop and go 'now hang on, there are good, Christian people there, she can't be all bad'.
Hmm. I don't know...something to think about.



Okay...so, question...if the AC isn't an 'individual', how is it that in 2 Thess 2 Paul refers specifically to a "man"? I can see that in most of the other references to this...evil, we could label it as a broader category, but in 2 Thess 2 it really seems like Paul is narrowing it down to a particular person.
And also...didn't the reformers point AT the Popes? That's a person isn't it? Are you saying that it was the 'future' element to it that was 'added'? But, again....there must be SOME future element to it, because 2 Thess 2 tells us the Christ will slay the AC when he appears.
Sorry...just trying to fit this all together. I know you've got a website...I've got plenty of reading time now! Point me to it if you want!!
First, kudos to you for being open and actually asking some intelligent and genuine questions. And yep, you are correct. That term, man of sin, sound certainly sounds like a contradiction sure. But if we go back to Daniel and look at the OT parallel to Antichrist, the little horn of Daniel 7, and use the Bible itself as the interpreter, we learn that
A horns are kingdoms and
B. This particular horn has eyes like the eyes of a man...
In other words a kingdom , that lasts from the time of the Roman empire to the second coming with a series of spokesmen at its head. The man of sin is a continuum... Similar to other scriptural references to the king of Tyre,,, King of Babylon etc where it often is representative of all those rulers of the one kingdom. The papacy is s kingdom. And as Daniel said, "diverse" from the others because it is a union of church and state. Anyway, here's a link to my site... Have fun.

The Leopard Stirs…
 
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onlyme17

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? strange reply from you. Do you doubt Jesus' Word? He said and says today, no one can serve two masters. If they serve idols of catholicism, they cannot serve Jesus.

But who has yet defined the "Two masters"...it seem what you believe they are , are not what others may believe that they are!!

@Naomi25
Your post #65 made me laugh out loud. Well said. :D
 
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Naomi25

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Be honest here? The mass they practice is an abomination. It is idolatry. It is worse than anything you have ever done in your life (hopefully).
An abomination? No see, here I have to thoroughly disagree again. The bible retains that language for the worst sort of deliberate desecration. For the majority of Catholic laity, I would say that what they recognize in mass is mistaken doctrine at worst. And yes, transubstantiation finds no backing in scripture. However, we all have places of disagreement over where we err on the side of doctrine and theology, don't we? I'm assuming you are SDA. Which means you, conceivably, also think my worshiping on a Sunday is an abomination. I would say that the fervor in which you hold to Saturdays is not in keeping with the New Covenant. Disagreements and differences... and yes, we must allow that probably someone is right and someone is wrong, and we may never find out who until our Lord comes. But here's the real factor....we both call upon Christ as our Lord and Savior. As do many people in the RCC, regardless of what mistaken doctrines they have been sold and bought. We do not and can not, dismiss their salvational status based solely upon mistaken doctrine, that judgement does not rest upon us. I think its a good thing to try and engage in conversations about correct doctrine and biblical truth in these regards, but we cannot start from a place where we've already passed a judgment upon them that only God is worthy to make.
 

Joseph77

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The Priests who practiced it and repented of it by God's Grace exposed it as a terrible abomination.
See "Fifty Years in the Church of Rome" by Charles Chiniquoy. (It was free online a few years ago. I haven't looked for it for a while. Also available to purchase, unless censored now) .

Also Keith Green's "The Catholic Chronicles", exposing the works of darkness, instead of approving of them.
 

Joseph77

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The Catholic Chronicles by Keith Green
Short excerpt: "I came out of Catholicism about the time the Chronicles were first published, and came across them in 1983 in tract form. To this day, I have never felt that these works were judgment or unfair. Only those who cannot handle the uncompromising pursuit of truth can have a problem with them. They are factual, balanced and worthy of consideration as the Difference perseveres, and we are proud to offer them here. Except for some minor editorial changes, each Chronicle appears here as it was first published by LDM. We are happy to allow the teaching ministry of Keith Green to once again confront error and uphold the truth with no compromise."
 

Waiting on him

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But obviously, the Covid 19 is not 'sudden destruction'.
What that will be is told to us in over 100 Bible prophesies; The Lord will send fire, an explosion of the suns surface, that will literally fulfil all those graphic prophesies.

Joel 1:15 The day is near, the Day of the Lord it comes as a mighty destruction from Almighty God.

Joel 2:1-5 Blow the trumpet in Israel, sound the alarm in Jerusalem. Let all who live in the Land tremble, for the day of the Lord is coming – it is close at hand. A Day of darkness and clouds.
Like [at] the dawn, an innumerable host comes across the land,
such as never was and will never be again. A fire goes before them, leaving wasteland behind. With a great noise they leap mountains and consume everything to stubble.


Joel 2:6-11 At the sight of them, all the nations are in anguish. They march in line, none swerving against any defence. They rush upon cities and enter houses through the windows. The earth quakes and the sky is darkened. The Lord thunders at the head of His army, beyond number are those who obey His command. The Day of the Lord is great and dreadful, who can endure it?

Joel 1:6-12 & 19-20 this invading host destroys trees and crops. Fire has burnt the pastures and trees. All the streams have dried up.

The Day of the Lord, as described by Joel is not Armageddon, at the Return of Jesus or at the Great White Throne judgement. It is plainly an event before then, also prophesied in Isaiah 2:12-21, Revelation 6:12-17, Ezekiel 7:2-9: + over other 100 times.

Joel uses the metaphor of an army to describe how this destruction moves across the earth as it rotates- ‘with the dawn’. As nations turn to face the sun, the effects of a Coronal Mass Ejection- sunstrike will hit them. Initially, it will strike the earth as a light flash [Isaiah 30:26a] within 8 minutes, then the highly charged cosmic particles arrive about 24 hours later, causing immense destruction and deaths. Fires and volcanic eruptions will result in smoke and ash clouds, covering the sky. Isaiah 29:5-6, Psalms 18:7-15, Jeremiah 4:23-28

Judah [the current State of Israel] is affected- Hosea 8:14, Eze. 20:45-48, Isa 4:3-4.
And the Lord’s enemies: Isaiah 22:5-14, Psalms 83:1-18, Isaiah 63:1-6. Isaiah 66:15-17, plus many others.

Deuteronomy 32:34-43 says how He will act when His enemies ‘foot will slip”. That is they make a mistake. That mistake will be their instigating an attack against Israel.


Malachi 4:1-3 Surely the day of the Lord is coming, it will burn like a furnace. All the evildoers will be as stubble, they will be burned up. They will be ashes under your feet. But for you, who revere My Name, righteousness will rise with healing in its wings. You will rejoice and prevail over the wicked on the Day that I act against them.

THEN the many prophecies that describe the migration of all true believers into the Promised Land will come to pass. This great exodus of His faithful Christian people will fulfil the promises that God made to the Patriarchs and they will, at last be a people that will be a ‘light to the nations’. They will prepare themselves and the world for the Return of Jesus. Ezekiel 35:11-30, Ezekiel 36:8-12, Deuteronomy 30:1-10, Zechariah 10:6-12, Isaiah 46:27-28, Ezekiel 39:25-29, Zephaniah 10:6-12

That Jesus is not yet present at this time, is clear from the many verses saying: ‘You will know that I am the Lord, when... And how it ‘will be as in the days of Egypt’.

Eze. 14:6-11, Eze 39:22, Joel 2:27, Isa 41:20. Reference: REB, NIV. Some verses abridged
This took place, 70 AD