Is this good for Christianity?

Jane_Doe22 · Apr 2, 2020

Justadude said:
So even assuming the worst, that comment can't be an example of lumping or stereotyping all Christians. Unless you're now going to argue that all Christians are here at CB and have spoken to me today.

If you don't have anything else I'm content to wrap this up (especially since you've ignored much of what I posted to you lately).

You displayed your internal stereotype of what a "Christian" should be, despite us just talking about example where your stereotype is not true (namely me).
And still you went back to it.

Your stereotyping is impeding your quest for knowledge. That's one major reason i"m trying to make you aware of it and encouraging jettisoning it. To truly learn we need to ditch filters and baises.

Joseph77 · Apr 2, 2020

Justadude said:
No. Do you know what street preaching is?

Do you know what perversion is ?

Justadude · Apr 2, 2020

Jane_Doe22 said:
You displayed your internal stereotype of what a "Christian" should be, despite us just talking about example where your stereotype is not true (namely me).

No, I drew inferences based on what a number of Christians have told me through my life, and in places like CB. You keep pointing out that not all Christians are like that and I keep agreeing with you. But when I bring up examples to try and illustrate why grouping and making inferences about tendencies within those groups is valid, you ignore them.

Your stereotyping is impeding your quest for knowledge. That's one major reason i"m trying to make you aware of it and encouraging jettisoning it. To truly learn we need to ditch filters and baises.

Then I suggest when you see people like me asking questions about Christianity you not cede the floor to Christians whose answers give a negative impression of the faith.

That's an important point. The only thing you've really told me specifically about Christianity is how you have no problem with science and evolution. But I already knew there were Christians like that (see my post with polling numbers). What you didn't do was provide any sort of counter-narrative to the Christians here telling me I had to embrace circular logic, suspend critical thinking, believe dreams are revelations from God, etc. All those things were posted here without any Christians taking the time to explain how none of that is true.

You understand how that works, right? If you cede the floor to others to tell a story and they end up telling one that turns people away, you can't really complain, unless you step up and tell a different story and explain why the others are wrong.

Jane_Doe22 · Apr 2, 2020

Justadude said:
No, I drew inferences based on what a number of Christians have told me through my life, and in places like CB. You keep pointing out that not all Christians are like that and I keep agreeing with you. But when I bring up examples to try and illustrate why grouping and making inferences about tendencies within those groups is valid, you ignore them.

Stereotyping is NEVER valid.

Statistical grouping is different, and should no be applied to human interactions.

Also phrasing with statistics is purposeful. It's possible to say things like "X tends to be, within Y and Z deviation." But to make a statements like "Christian..." is applying to an entire group and even one single counter example is enough to render the statement invalid.

Justadude said:
Then I suggest when you see people like me asking questions about Christianity you not cede the floor to Christians whose answers give a negative impression of the faith.

You errantly associate me with other people like Paul Chsitianson, despite my previous post clearly showing differences.
This is another example where your lumping is limiting your ability to observe & learn.

Justadude said:
That's an important point. The only thing you've really told me specifically about Christianity is how you have no problem with science and evolution. But I already knew there were Christians like that (see my post with polling numbers). What you didn't do was provide any sort of counter-narrative to the Christians here telling me I had to embrace circular logic, suspend critical thinking, believe dreams are revelations from God, etc. All those things were posted here without any Christians taking the time to explain how none of that is true.

Becaue you're lumping: which is causing your problems. I keep highlighting that fact, over and over again.

Justadude said:
You understand how that works, right? If you cede the floor to others to tell a story and they end up telling one that turns people away, you can't really complain, unless you step up and tell a different story and explain why the others are wrong.

I could somehow police Paul Christianson's posts, implying that what he thinks isn't valid.

I could flatter your lumping.

But what I'm doing instead highlighting difference found between individuals and the dangers of lumping. Yes, this does require more thought/effort for both me & you-- but such is the nature of thoughtfulness.

Justadude · Apr 2, 2020

Jane_Doe22 said:
Stereotyping is NEVER valid.

Statistical grouping is different, and should no be applied to human interactions.

Statisticians do that all the time. A recent example off the top of my head is one where they examined police interactions with whites versus people of color and identified definite tendencies in word usage.

Also phrasing with statistics is purposeful. It's possible to say things like "X tends to be, within Y and Z deviation." But to make a statements like "Christian..." is applying to an entire group and even one single counter example is enough to render the statement invalid.

So why do we have denominations and labels for those denominations?

You errantly associate me with other people like Paul Chsitianson, despite my previous post clearly showing differences.

I never did that.

This is another example where your lumping is limiting your ability to observe & learn.

No, it's another example of you accusing me of something I didn't do.

I could somehow police Paul Christianson's posts, implying that what he thinks isn't valid.

Again you show how limited you are in your thinking. The only alternative you can think of to sitting silently while Paul and like-minded Christians answer my questions is to "police" Paul. It never occurs to you to just step in and provide your own answers.

I suspect you're just taking the easy route. It's much easier for you to go after me, rather than your fellow Christians for tying Christianity to absurd things. Shoot, you won't even step in and provide your own counter-narrative.

How about instead of sitting on the sidelines of a Q&A session and throwing rocks at the person asking questions, you step up and provide your own answers? I've certainly given you plenty of opportunities to do so today, by tagging you to people's posts and asking if you agree with them. And guess what? You ignored each and every one of them.

You know what this strikes me as? You Christians have some real issues in your own house, as evidenced by how the faith is in steep decline, especially among young people. Many of those young people specifically say that among the reasons they are turning away from Christianity is because of how they see the faith as bigoted towards LGBTQs, anti-science, intolerant of doubt/questioning, and close-minded.

When someone like me comes along and points that out, instead of working to fix the problems within your house, you yell at me for daring to notice all the problems inside it. Meanwhile, as the more mainstream members of your faith continue to flee the house the problems that led them to leave only intensify.

But it's all my fault, right?

Jane_Doe22 · Apr 2, 2020

Justadude said:
Statisticians do that all the time. A recent example off the top of my head is one where they examined police interactions with whites versus people of color and identified definite tendencies in word usage.

"tendencies" is a key word here. A trend, not absolutes. The study itself will discuss the uncertainties of that trend, assumptions, and any associated caveats.

Justadude said:
I never did that.

No, it's another example of you accusing me of something I didn't do.

You do it constantly-- like in this very post! "You Christians have some real issues in your own house", "your fellow Christians for tying Christianity to absurd things", "the faith as bigoted towards LGBTQs, anti-science, intolerant of doubt/questioning, and close-minded." "instead of working to fix the problems within your house". "more mainstream members of your faith continue to flee the house". etc.

I am in my house. No one else's.
Every other Christian (and non-Christian) is in their own house.

Stop with the inaccurate and horribly offensive stereotyping.

Justadude said:
Again you show how limited you are in your thinking. The only alternative you can think of to sitting silently while Paul and like-minded Christians answer my questions is to "police" Paul. It never occurs to you to just step in and provide your own answers.

I suspect you're just taking the easy route. It's much easier for you to go after me, rather than your fellow Christians for tying Christianity to absurd things. Shoot, you won't even step in and provide your own counter-narrative.

How about instead of sitting on the sidelines of a Q&A session and throwing rocks at the person asking questions, you step up and provide your own answers? I've certainly given you plenty of opportunities to do so today, by tagging you to people's posts and asking if you agree with them. And guess what? You ignored each and every one of them.

I do answers questions. Spending lots of time doing such. .

Justadude · Apr 2, 2020

Jane_Doe22 said:
I am in my house. No one else's.

I will keep that in mind.

Every other Christian (and non-Christian) is in their own house.

You should avoid absolutes.

I do answers questions. Spending lots of time doing such. .

If you ever feel inclined to answer any of mine, I welcome your input.

Jane_Doe22 · Apr 2, 2020

Justadude said:
I will keep that in mind.

You should avoid absolutes.

If you ever feel inclined to answer any of mine, I welcome your input.

I have addressed you questions many times.
But I don't feel like my input is welcomed because it does not go with the existing paradigm.

ScottA · Apr 2, 2020

Justadude said:
The Gospel of John was written ~80 AD, so it most certainly does not precede time.

Where did you get that definition?

How do you know?

Right, but as we've been over there are lots and lots and lots of people who claim the same thing.

I explained that. The red flags go up when someone tells me to stop thinking, stop asking questions, suspend critical thinking, and "just have faith". Specific to your story, so far you've given me no concrete reason to accept what you say as true, and you appear to be getting increasingly annoyed that I don't just take your word for things.

So? Explanations and such from Imams all agree with the Quran. The same is true of Buddhist Monks, Mormon elders, etc. All their testimonies, revelations, and explanations agree with their sacred scriptures. So that yours agree with the Bible is hardly surprising or noteworthy.

You mean your dream/vision?

You've given me no reason to accept your dream/vision as anything other than just a dream some anonymous guy on the internet had.

In a conversation with another Christian in this thread the notion of placing oneself in someone else's shoes and seeing things from their perspective came up. If you're able to do that, I'd like you to try and imagine you encountering a Muslim Imam who tells you that he had a dream/vision about Mohammed and Allah. He tells you how it was entirely consistent with the Quran and how the wisdom in the Quran precedes time. When you start asking critical questions he calls you insane and basically chastises you for not just unquestioningly accepting his say so. When you try and explain that you're not going to blindly accept everything he says he accuses you of dodging and hiding from the truth.

Then ask yourself this. Do you think the Imam has made a compelling, persuasive case for you to adopt his beliefs?

Do you understand how you've given me little to no reason to see your answers as basically things you've made up? Do you truly think you've made a powerfully compelling and persuasive case for me to change my worldview based on what you've posted here?

It seems to me that your idea of a "serious discussion" would entail me blindly accepting whatever you tell me and never asking critical questions. Like I said, that's entirely consistent with my experiences in church as a youth and is a major reason why I'm not a Christian.

If you put all my answers together they answer all your questions.

I have not suggested you "blindly accept" anything, that's your complex speaking. On the contrary, I have suggested logic and reason, and given elementary examples, and I shared.

And now you are going around in circles and are back where you started. So, since you fail to see and hear what the spirit of God in me has to say, never mind. Carry on as you were, live your life without answers, and only find out the truth when it is over. I'm not selling anything, and you are not buying anything. So be it.

Joseph77 · Apr 2, 2020

ScottA said:
If you put all my answers together they answer all your questions.

I have not suggested you "blindly accept" anything, that's your complex speaking. On the contrary, I have suggested logic and reason, and given elementary examples, and I shared.

And now you are going around in circles and are back where you started. So, since you fail to see and hear what the spirit of God in me has to say, never mind. Carry on as you were, live your life without answers, and only find out the truth when it is over. I'm not selling anything, and you are not buying anything. So be it.

The 'dude' , in other threads, in other posts, shows that he (or she?) approves of sexual sins.
As long as that remains so, God Himself says that God Himself does not hear the dudes prayers. (if he wanted to pray, he'd have to repent first / at the same time)

ScottA · Apr 3, 2020

Joseph77 said:
The 'dude' , in other threads, in other posts, shows that he (or she?) approves of sexual sins.
As long as that remains so, God Himself says that God Himself does not hear the dudes prayers. (if he wanted to pray, he'd have to repent first / at the same time)

Yes, it is obvious that he is not for us, but against us.

Justadude · Apr 3, 2020

Jane_Doe22 said:
I have addressed you questions many times.
But I don't feel like my input is welcomed because it does not go with the existing paradigm.

I looked back through the thread and found that just about all your posts were the same, namely lectures about stereotyping. I didn't see any that really got to the topic of this thread. But I did see one where you said I could ask you anything, so in that spirit...

In the OP I note that Christianity is in decline in the western world and wonder if tying the faith to things like anti-science and anti-intellectualism, anti-LGBTQs, conspiracy theories, and such will further that decline.

Do you agree or disagree that those things being publicly espoused by prominent Christians will push more people away from the faith?

You did explain that you're not an evolution denialist, but I showed you polling data that shows a majority of LDSs deny the evolution of humans. What do you think explains that, since evolution denial isn't official LDS doctrine?

Other polling indicates LDSs are still largely against LGBTQ civil rights. Why is that, and do you think that is having an effect on the public perception of Christianity (especially among the young)?

Justadude · Apr 3, 2020

ScottA said:
If you put all my answers together they answer all your questions.

I have not suggested you "blindly accept" anything, that's your complex speaking. On the contrary, I have suggested logic and reason, and given elementary examples, and I shared.

And now you are going around in circles and are back where you started. So, since you fail to see and hear what the spirit of God in me has to say, never mind. Carry on as you were, live your life without answers, and only find out the truth when it is over. I'm not selling anything, and you are not buying anything. So be it.

It looks you don't want to continue, so thank you for taking the time to talk with me. I know it's not fun having someone ask critical questions about your personal beliefs, so I appreciate you at least trying.

Joseph77 · Apr 3, 2020

ScottA said:
Yes, it is obvious that he is not for us, but against us.

He plainly says so. In his posts. He plainly supported sexual perversion in past posts, and never repented of it.
His mind is darkness, his eye 'stingy' and his body full of darkness, all exactly as written in Scripture, in perfect harmony with all God's Description (of him) .

ScottA · Apr 3, 2020

Justadude said:
It looks you don't want to continue, so thank you for taking the time to talk with me. I know it's not fun having someone ask critical questions about your personal beliefs, so I appreciate you at least trying.

I have not problem continuing, but it is apparent that you do, for you have refused to accept the true answers because of the multitude of false answers you also see and hear. That is on you. There is no association of the truth with the false, except in your own mind.

Justadude · Apr 3, 2020

ScottA said:
I have not problem continuing, but it is apparent that you do

I don't mind continuing.

for you have refused to accept the true answers because of the multitude of false answers you also see and hear. That is on you. There is no association of the truth with the false, except in your own mind.

Can you specify what false answers you're talking about?

Joseph77 · Apr 3, 2020

ScottA said:
I have not problem continuing, but it is apparent that you do, for you have refused to accept the true answers because of the multitude of false answers you also see and hear. That is on you. There is no association of the truth with the false, except in your own mind.

The sons of disobedience love a continuing platform/ audience/ seeming 'approval' they seek and get online (they think), and in most places online , most so-called 'Christian' forums, they cannot be silenced as directed in Scripture.

Jane_Doe22 · Apr 3, 2020

Justadude said:
I looked back through the thread and found that just about all your posts were the same, namely lectures about stereotyping. I didn't see any that really got to the topic of this thread. But I did see one where you said I could ask you anything, so in that spirit...

In the OP I note that Christianity is in decline in the western world and wonder if tying the faith to things like anti-science and anti-intellectualism, anti-LGBTQs, conspiracy theories, and such will further that decline.

Do you agree or disagree that those things being publicly espoused by prominent Christians will push more people away from the faith?

You did explain that you're not an evolution denialist, but I showed you polling data that shows a majority of LDSs deny the evolution of humans. What do you think explains that, since evolution denial isn't official LDS doctrine?

Other polling indicates LDSs are still largely against LGBTQ civil rights. Why is that, and do you think that is having an effect on the public perception of Christianity (especially among the young)?

*sigh*

Dude, your question is a product of your stereotyping. I've pointed this out many many times, yet you still cling to them and ask questioned rooted in that faulty paradigm and you don't even acknowledge it as being a problem.

I'm not finding this conversation to be thoughtful, and more like a blind witch hunt from you. Which makes me sad both for myself, and i know that other Christians will read it and reinforce their own anti-atheist stereotypes --- loss, loss, loss all around.

Probably just best time to quit.

Justadude · Apr 3, 2020

Jane_Doe22 said:
*sigh*

Dude, your question is a product of your stereotyping. I've pointed this out many many times, yet you still cling to them and ask questioned rooted in that faulty paradigm and you don't even acknowledge it as being a problem.

I'm not finding this conversation to be thoughtful, and more like a blind witch hunt from you. Which makes me sad both for myself, and i know that other Christians will read it and reinforce their own anti-atheist stereotypes --- loss, loss, loss all around.

Probably just best time to quit.

Well, I tried to ask you about your personal views on the decline of Christianity and what might be behind it, and even though you said "ask me anything", you obviously don't want to talk about it. So I won't bother you any more.

Jane_Doe22 · Apr 3, 2020

Justadude said:
Well, I tried to ask you about your personal views on the decline of Christianity and what might be behind it, and even though you said "ask me anything", you obviously don't want to talk about it. So I won't bother you any more.

Why would particularly I care about (for example) Paul Christianson's beliefs becoming less popular. They aren't mine. Paul's in Paul's house. I'm in mine.

"Christianity" is a stereotype when you're asking this question. There's not a monolith Borg-like drone, but individuals with a wide variety of beliefs & behaviors. Just like atheists have a wide variety of beliefs & behaviors.

Is this good for Christianity?

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