The doctrine of the trinity, it's origins

101G · Apr 3, 2020

Is the doctrine of the trinity true or not.

here are some verses we can start with from Bread of Life.
The Trinity is corroborated repeatedly throughout the Scriptures:
(Gen. 1:26, Matt. 28:19, John 15:26, 1 Cor. 12:4-6, 2 Cor. 13:14, 1 John 5:7, Eph. 4:6, Psalm 68:5, Mal. 2:10, Isa. 63:16, 2 Cor. 1:3-4, John 3:16, John 8:41, 1 Thess. 3:13, Isa. 7:14, Isa. 9:6, John 1:1, John 1:3, John 8:58, John 10:30, John 15:9, John 20:28, Acts 5:3-4, 2 Cor. 4:4, Phil. 2:6, Col. 2:9, 1 Tim. 3:16, Heb. 1:8, Tit. 2:13, John 14:16-18, Luke 12:10, 2 Cor. 3:17, 2 Cor. 13:5, John 14:23, Acts 5:3-4)

Now we encourage any trinity believer to put forth their scriptures to support their beliefs, if not listed above. we want to get every and all of the scriptures that support the trinity doctrine.

Disclaimer: we have nothing against the person, only the doctrine of the trinity. so put all personal feeling aside, ok. THIS IS NOT ABOUT "YOU". we will give you time to get your scriptures together.

so lets discuss, and not argue, but support your view by scriptures. no opinions just scriptures.

PICJAG

Joseph77 · Apr 3, 2020

101G said:
Is the doctrine of the trinity true or not.

I see this a lot. (not just about the trinity)

"the doctrine" that many age-old groups develped around something, around anything,
and
with it a lot of seemingly spurious additions ....
or
other "doctrines" added on, hanging on, in association with "the doctrine" ...

SO that might need clarification in order to get to the truth.

God willing.

101G · Apr 3, 2020

True, and we are going to get to the truth now,

Lets get the very first one on the list, Genesis 1:26, lets see if this is a trinity or not.

Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth". NOW THIS, THE VERY NEXT VERSE. Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them".

how did God go from "US", and "OUR" to "HIS", and "HIM"? that's bible. what did the Lord Jesus, who cannot lie said as to who created the male and female at the beginning? let’s see. while the Lord Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees concerning divorcement, he said this, Matthew 19:4 "And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female", "he" is a single person designation, not a trinity. remember it's the Lord Jesus said "he".

so do we have an answer as to why the bible said “US” and “OUR” at Genesis 1:26. YES, being a “diversified Oneness” God was speaking of Himself in flesh to come as a man his own image. supportive scripture, Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come”.

the term “Figure” here is G5179 τύπος tupos (tï '-pos) n.
1. a die (as struck).
2. (by implication) a stamp or scar.
3. (by analogy) a shape, i.e. a statue.
4. (figuratively) style or resemblance.
5. (specially) a sampler (“type”), i.e. a model (for imitation) or instance (for warning).
[from G5180]
KJV: en-(ex-)ample, fashion, figure, form, manner, pattern, print

notice definition #2, “a Stamp”, lets see it in scripture and see the figure to come. Hebrews 1:3 "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high”.

the express image: G5481 χαρακτήρ charakter (cha-rak-teer') n.
1. an engraver (the tool or the person).
2. (by implication) an engraving.
3. (hence) a “character,” the figure stamped.
4. (by extension) an exact copy.
5. (figuratively) a representation.
[from charasso “to sharpen to a point” (akin to G1125 through the idea of scratching)]
KJV: express image

notice definition #3 “ the figure stamped” and notice definition #2 in “Figure” above, “a stamp”. that’s the express Image that was to come, not at Genesis 1:26 but at John 1:1… (smile). so from Genesis 1:1 unto John 1:1 it was only ONE PERSON, JESUS without flesh, without bone, and without blood, the Spirit the Holy Spirit. and still is ONE person, only now “SHARED” or diversified in flesh, as the OFFSPRING of himself.

remember the Lord Jesus said "he", meaning God made him male and female in the beginning, now do you call the Lord Jesus a liar? if not then that trinity lie is expose at Genesis 1:26.

PICJAG.

Joseph77 · Apr 3, 2020

This won't work for you.

Your speaking /posting / in English. To people who think, speak, write, talk, and post in English.

So , no chance to succeed if this is the way you choose.

101G · Apr 3, 2020

As I said, this is a discussion, and I'm not about keeping people in the dark. in Hebrews 1:3 "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high".
the term "the express image of his person", is G5481 χαρακτήρ charakter (cha-rak-teer'). again, definition #3, (hence) a “character,” the figure stamped. do one know what " character" means? lets get educated, it means "SON". lets see it, ,G5207, huios, primarily signifies the relation of offspring to parent (See John 9:18-John 9:20; Gal 4:30. It is often used metaphorically of prominent moral characteristics (See below). It is used in the NT of (a) male offspring, Gal 4:30; (b) legitimate, as opposed to illegitimate offspring, Heb 12:8; (c) descendants, without reference to sex, Rom 9:27; (d) friends attending a wedding, Matt 9:15; (e) those who enjoy certain privileges, Acts 3:25; (f) those who act in a certain way, whether evil, Matt 23:31, or good, Gal 3:7; (g) those who manifest a certain character, whether evil, Acts 13:10; Eph 2:2, or good, Luke 6:35; Acts 4:36; Rom 8:14; (h) the destiny that corresponds with the character, whether evil, Matt 23:15; John 17:12; 2Thess 2:3, or good, Luke 20:36; (i) the dignity of the relationship with God whereinto men are brought by the Holy Spirit when they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, Rom 8:19; Gal 3:26. ...

so the "TITLE" Son indicate "character" and the Lord Jesus is the express image of his person/character in flesh.

I'll hold up a bit here and give my trinity fellows time to respond.

PICJAG

Joseph77 · Apr 3, 2020

How many times , referring to the Father, the Son, and the Believers,

is

"ECHAD"

in the original Scripture ? (TORAH, PROPHETS, PSALMS, NEW TESTAMENT)

101G · Apr 3, 2020

Joseph77 said:
How many times , referring to the Father, the Son, and the Believers,

is

"ECHAD"

in the original Scripture ? (TORAH, PROPHETS, PSALMS, NEW TESTAMENT)

Hi "J", echad is what I see some of my messianic Jews use, but there is a problem in using it to describe the Godhead.

Yachid vs Echad

what do “echad” as to one, or oneness means. some scholars have describe the “echad” as a Compound unity, or a complex unity. but there is another Hebrew word, “Yachid”, this hebrew word means ONLY one. so there is no possibility of any kind of unity with Yachid”. since the bible refers to “echad”, and “Yachid” these are the words we will zoom in on.

Echad can be expressed to signify "the same" or "one and the same”. Behold, they are one people [echad] and they all have the same language. or the man and the woman ONE flesh.

ECHAD: H259 אֶחָד 'echad (ekh-awd') adj.
1. (properly) united, i.e. one
2. (as an ordinal) first
[a numeral from H258]
KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-)ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together,
Root(s): H258

notice definition #1. united, i.e. one. there is the unity many messianic Jews use.but lets see if this is the true "ONE" we're looking for.

With Adam and Eve, they was one flesh, right. but is the flesh a person. No. So you have TWO separate individuals, who share the same flesh. if anyone base the echad on one in nature, according to the flesh, then they expose them selves to polytheism of two spirits. For the flesh is flesh and the spirit is spirit, Not the same. So an echad will not hold the test of one in flesh.

“echad” is the a. SAME, b. ANOTHER, c. OF, (meaning the “same”). d, GROUP, here is the compound unity, not they are one, but “one” group. so it's not the people that is one, but the GROUP is one. I can have one pot, two pots, and a third pot, and GROUP them together as ONE, not that the Pots are one individual as the echad, but the GROUPING of pots is ONE echad. now lets Look at God who is a Spirit, and his nature. by Sharing his “Spirit” in flesh and blood, he is not TWO, as a single group an echad, but one individual "SHARED" as the another of himself, that’s the understanding of G243 Allos. Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort. Sort means, a particular kind, species, variety, class, or group, distinguished by a common character or nature: well there is only one who fit in that group.

now lets look at some example, of Echad.

The people answered with one voice [kol echad].(Exod 24:3)
the people is not the “echad”, but the voice “of” the people is the “echad”. see it now.

Adam and Eve shall become one flesh. (Gen 2:24)
Adam, nor Eve is the “echad”, but the flesh is the “echad”.

Ezekiel 10:10 "And [as for] their appearances, they four had one likeness, as if a wheel had been in the midst of a wheel.
THEY ARE NOT THE “ECHAD”, BUT THE LIKNESS IS THE ECHAD”

Ezekiel 11:19 "And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
THEM IS NOT THE “ECHAD”, BUT THE HEART OF ONE IS THE “ECHAD”.

Zechariah 5:7 "And, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead: and this [is] a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah.
THIS: is an “Echad”

Malachi 2:10 "Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?
Father is the echad of GOD, meaning ONE person

on the other hand "Yachid", is not of a group or anything, but the "one" individual, example, Genesis 22:2 "And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of".

Now, God is "ONE" a "Yachid", but the million dollar question is how is he the Father and the son at the same time. the answer to this question is in the Greek word, "ANOTHER", G243 "ALLOS". according to the Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort. there is our answer to the Godhead. a numerical difference is the "SHARE" of one "Yachid"...

see it now. a numerical difference is 1, 2 Father, and Son. allos is the "EXPRESS IMANGE" or the Adam of God. lets see it plainly. the Lord Jesus is called the Last Adam, correct. now what do the word "ADAM" means, according to the Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments, ADAM: H120 אָדָם 'adam (aw-dawm') n-m.
ruddy i.e. a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.).
[from H119]
KJV: X another, + hypocrite, + common sort, X low, man (mean, of low degree), person.
Root(s): H119

There it is, the Lord Jesus who is God, the Spirit, his own ARM (the equal share of himself), is the Image of himself, or the ANOTHER of himself, to come in the Flesh, which he, God/Yeshua, did, (Roman 5:14b). that Another, or the equal share of himself is better known as the "OFFSPRING" of, of, of, of, of, ....... God himself, the Spirit, not the Offspring of Man, (hence the virgin birth), but of God... (smile). and as said, another word for "offspring is "Diversity". which is the Hebrew word, G1085 γένος genos (ǰe'-nos) n.
kin.
{abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective}
[from G1096]
KJV: born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock
Root(s): G1096

kin as in KINSman Redeemer....

Understand, the LORD Jesus in flesh is the "EQUAL" share of himself, the Spirit... the ANOTHER of the "Yachid" the Spirit who is the "ROOT"/Father.

so the "Yachid" the ROOT/Father, LORD, is the Spirit, without flesh and without bone, THE HOLY ONE OR THE HOLY SPIRIT. now "shared" in flesh and bone with blood is the "ANOTHER", or the G243 allos of the same one/"Yachid", himself as OFFSPRING/Son, Lord. see it now? if not as we go on we will build the understanding. but the key to the Godhead is the "EQUAL" SHARE of God himself, the Spirit in flesh. once you understand that the bible will open up to you.

enough for right now.

PICJAG.

DNB · Apr 3, 2020

First of all, we cannot find the word 'trinity' from anywhere within the Bible, nor three-in-one, nor two-in-one, nor god-man, nor two-nature, nor triune, nor one-essence, nor God the son or God the Holy Spirit, etc..
Nor did any of the major characters of the Bible, the most devout men ever, ever pray to a triune God.
Nor, did any conversion take place in the New Testament, using a triune formula to save the proselytes.
Nor does a god-man make any sense.
Nor does having 3 omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient persons in the same godhead, serve any purpose besides complete redundancy.
One can't even explain what a trinity is, nor a god-man, let alone find a sufficient Biblical attestation to it.
Even the leading trinitarian proponents admit that it's been inferred from the Bible, not taught. i.e. Such an exegesis, on such a subject, does not have God's stamp on it!

Anyone honest and serious about this excercise, by going about it in a proper hermeneutical and exgetical manner, will never come to such a radical conclusion?
Every Biblical doctrine is established in the fundamental manner that i just outlined, no one can do the same for the trinity?

101G · Apr 4, 2020

@DNB, first GINOLJC to all. second, the same old frontal attack is not responding to the needs of the trinity community to respond. so we are going to eliminate from within by going after the verse they trust in. as the first verse on the list, Genesis 1:26 fell yesterday without a wimp from the trinity community. why? because the one whom they suppose to serve, the Lord Jesus , testified aganist them at Genesis 1:26. they put their playbook on the table for all to see their scriptures that support their beliefs. so we will honor their strategy, and in the name of Jesus he will destroy all of the false beliefs that derive from the scriptures that was posted. as we said, this is a discussion on the trinity, and not on any person, we're going after the scriptures that was posted.

Now if you want to go about this discussion in a proper hermeneutical and exgetical manner, please go ahead this is an open topic.

PICJAG.

101G · Apr 4, 2020

Scripture #2 that was posted.

Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”.
In the name of the Lord Jesus, thanks for the scripture. First thing First, “Father” is not a person, nor is “Son” a person, but both are “TITLES” of a person. understand, a title is not the “person”, but a “TITLE” is a name that describes someone's position or job”. so right off the bat, the three titles “Father”, “Son”, and the “Holy Ghost” describe a PERSON positions of Job.

lets expose the false teaching behind this verse of scripture. it has been taught that these three titles are persons. if that’s true, then LORD, all caps which is a title, represent the “Father”, and the title “Lord” represent “Son”. because the trinity doctrine states that the Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Father… correct. well one Trinitarian poster stated that the titles are interchangeable, if that’s true the the argument of separate and distinct has failed. for if they are interchangeable then one have a God with different modes of operations which another Trinitarian poster made, and that’s nothing but modalism in it’s purest form.

but lets get to the false teaching directly from the bible. we have ONE Father correct… listen, Malachi 2:10 "Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?”. "one" father correct... NOW THIS, 2 Corinthians 6:17 "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2 Corinthians 6:18 "And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty". the Lord is Jesus the "Son" correct.... correct, John 13:13 "Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am”. (well the false teaching is falling apart).
here clearly is the verse that states our Lord as the Almighty as God. (and he's suppose to be the second person in the trinity?), and he says he is the Father, (Remember what Malachi 2:10 said, "Have we not all one father?", but is not the “LORD” all caps is the ALMIGHTY, the Father? lets see, Genesis 17:1 "And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect”.

well, well, well, the title “LORD”, and the title “Lord” is held by the same one person so it was an ERROR on the poster who said that the titles are interchangeable, and the poster who said that they are the modes of God (who are three persons) these posters are incorrect. for the trinity doctrine states that the Father is the First person in the trinity… correct, and the Son is the second person, well that fails also, for according to 2 Corinthians 6:18 the “Lord” is the Father, and the Lord is Jesus who the trinity doctrine states is the second person, and Genesis 17:1 the “LORD” is the Father because both are the same one almighty. (see how the trinity lie).

so knowing this, then Matthews Matthew 28:19 fails as three SEPARATE and DISTINCT “Persons”. because the Father is Jesus, the Lord Almighty (2 Corinthians 6:18). and the LORD is the Almighty (according to Genesis 17:1) and Malachi 2:10 say "Have we not all one father?". well the scriptures testify aganist any trinity. again the one whom you suppose to serve testify that there is ONE Father and the scriptures states that JESUS who is the LORD and Lord is that one Father. he, Jesus is Father as the Almighty, LORD, without Flesh, Spirit, and he, Jesus is the Father as the Almighty with flesh, spirit. and yet he's Son as a man with flesh, John 13:13 "Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am”,

so the titles fails in Matthew 28:19 to produce a trinity.

PICJAG

DNB · Apr 4, 2020

101G said:
@DNB, first GINOLJC to all. second, the same old frontal attack is not responding to the needs of the trinity community to respond. so we are going to eliminate from within by going after the verse they trust in. as the first verse on the list, Genesis 1:26 fell yesterday without a wimp from the trinity community. why? because the one whom they suppose to serve, the Lord Jesus , testified aganist them at Genesis 1:26. they put their playbook on the table for all to see their scriptures that support their beliefs. so we will honor their strategy, and in the name of Jesus he will destroy all of the false beliefs that derive from the scriptures that was posted. as we said, this is a discussion on the trinity, and not on any person, we're going after the scriptures that was posted.

Now if you want to go about this discussion in a proper hermeneutical and exgetical manner, please go ahead this is an open topic.

PICJAG.

I may have misunderstood your particular position on this matter. I see that you are against trintarianism, as I am. But not sure of what your Christology is. At the risk of labeling, I would be considered Unitarian.

101G · Apr 4, 2020

DNB said:
Oh, for crying out loud, you're a modalist, not a trinitarian? Like a oneness Pentecostal? Then I didn't exactly use the correct expressions to refute your position. Yes, then, trinity is a false teaching, but so is modalism, there is no such thing as a god-man, obviously.

Fist thanks for the reply, second please point out where I'm a modalism and lets see if what you say is true?

Looking to hear from you.

PICJAG.

101G · Apr 4, 2020

While we wait on DNB response,
Scripture #3 that was posted.

John 15:26 "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me”.

GREAT verse, as I have always said, JESUS is the Holy Spirit/the Holy Ghost. lets break this scripture down, here we have Jesus testifying that he will send the “Comforter”… correct, well lets see if this is true. John 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you”. HOLD IT, stop the press, the “Father” will send the Comforter? but did not the Lord Jesus said in the scripture given, John 15:26 above that he. the Lord Jesus will sent the Comforter? READ both of those verses again.

now there is only one conclusion, either Jesus is the Father which is a title of the “COMFORTER”, or the Lord Jesus lied. knowing that the Lord Jesus cannot lie, then he, Jesus is the Father who is the Holy Spirit who comes. lets see if this is true

Evidence #1. John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever”. Hold it, Jesus said that the Father, which is him, (diversified), will give you “ANOTHER” Comforter. lets see whom this “ANOTHER” Comforter is, lets keep on reading.
John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you”. (Now keep your hats on, for the very next verse tells us who the Comforter is).

John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you”. BINGO,the Lord Jesus is the “ANOTHER” Comforter to come. man oh man, someone would have to pay you overtime to miss this. did one hear what the Lord JESUS said, “I WILL NOT LEAVE YOU COMFORTLESS…. I WILL COME TO YOU”. how plain can one get.

Evidence #2. the key that unlock JESUS as the “Comforter” is the word “ANOTHER”, as in “ANOTHER” Comforter… (smile). lets see what “ANOTHER” means here. it’s the Greek Word G243 Allos, sound familiar? it should, for this word is the key to understanding God “Diversity” as the ANOTHER comforter. see post #7 again. now back to JESUS as Comforter. for John 14:16 states, "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter”. well who was the first Comforter? the “SON”, God, the Holy Spirit …. WITH Flesh, and with bone, and with BLOOD. listen, Luke 2:25 "And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him”. notice the word consolation here it’s the Greek word, G3874 παράκλησις paraklesis (pa-ra'-klee-sis)
1. an imploration, entreaty (urgent request (for mercy or help)).
2. an exhortation (urgent counsel, encouragement, or caution).
3. a comfort, solace.
[from G3870]
KJV: comfort, consolation, exhortation, intreaty
Root(s): G3870
See also: G3875

my source for this definition is the Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments. notice definition #1. & #3. definition #1. an imploration, entreaty (urgent request (for mercy or help)). someone who gives “help” is a helper…

, and someone who gives “comfort” is a COMFORTER

. the definition also states see G3875, well lets see what G3875 states. G3875 παράκλητος parakletos (pa-ra'-klee-tos) n.
1. (properly) one called near (to give help).
2. an intercessor (one who entreats of behalf of another).
3. a comforter.
[(not given)]
KJV: advocate, comforter

HOLD IT …. a “COMFORTER?” yes, the FIRST comforter is the Lord Jesus in flesh and blood as a man, the SON. now, in John 14:16-18 he returns as the “ANOTHER” Comforter in Spirit, the FATHER. can we prove this? yes, for the term “Comforter” is also MEDIATOR, scripture, 1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous”

the term “Advocate” is the same word for “Comforter” G3875 παράκλητος parakletos (pa-ra'-klee-tos) n.
1. (properly) one called near (to give help).
2. an intercessor (one who entreats of behalf of another).
3. a comforter.
[(not given)]
KJV: advocate, comforter

BINGO, JESUS who is “Lord”, and LORD, is the Comforter, and “Advocate”. an Advocate is also a word for, “MEDIATOR”. lets see who this MEDATOR is. Galatians 3:16 "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Galatians 3:17 "And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Galatians 3:18 "For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Galatians 3:19 "Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Galatians 3:20 "Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one”. now the question is why and how?

keep your eyes on verse 20 here as we go to Hebrews and see why God himself in flesh is the “MEDIATOR”. and WITHOUT flesh is "COMFORTER", listen,
Hebrews 6:13 "For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself”, BINGO, JESUS is the COMFORTER, and the MEDIATOR, who is the Father, the Spirit diversifed in Flesh. better kown as the ROOT and the OFFSPRING, at the same time..... my Lord this is too easy.

PICJAG

101G · Apr 4, 2020

Scripture #4 that was posted.

I have to personally thank you Bread of Life for these verses scriptures which clearly prove my point that there is no trinity.

1 Corinthians 12:4 "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:5 "And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

1 Corinthians 12:6 "And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

here we have the “Spirit”, the “Lord” who is "God" that which worketh all in all”. let’s go straight to the jugular and expose the false trinity concept. The “Lord” and the “Spirit?”, scripture, 2 Corinthians 3:17 "Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty”. the “Lord” is that “Spirit”, the scriptures once again testify aganist the trinity doctrine. how easy was that to destroy. I can’t for the love of me see why they would even consider this scripture for a trinity scripture. oh well you must meet where thaey are at.

now, lets finish up. we have the “Lord” who is that “Spirit” who is Jesus well what about the word “GOD” in 1 Corinthians 12:6”, is Jesus God plainly stated in the bible? yes. let the bible speak,

John 20:26 "And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

John 20:27 "Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

John 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

John 20:29 "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed”.

Oop’s there it is. "Lord" and "God", and is not God a Spirit? see John 4:24a. BINGO, there is more to this but I’ll keep it short and to the point. so 1 Corinthians 12:4-6 is not a trinity scripture.

PICJAG

101G · Apr 4, 2020

Let's get in one more before DNB post his reply.

Scripture #5 that was posted.

2 Corinthians 13:14 "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen”.
Just see the last few post and it covers this, but lets examine it a little closely for another scripture posted will this answer also.

notice the conjunction “AND” used between the Lord Jesus Christ, God, and the Holy Ghost. I know they use “and” as a separator to indicate three persons. well lets expose this side of the doctrine. scripture, James 1:27 "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world”. HOLD it “before God and the Father?”. is this two person?, meaning God and Father. are this two separate and distinct persons as indicated by the conjunction "and"? no, of course not. just as in using “and” in 2 Corinthians 13:14 to indicate 3 persons? see the error.

well in James, he gives us the correct use of God “and” the Father, not as two separate and distinct person, NO, but the SAME person, listen. James 3:9 "Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God”. BINGO, listen, “God, even the Father”. it’s the same one Person being indicated here, just as the Lord Jesus Christ, God, and the Holy Ghost is the “SAME” one person in 2 Corinthians 13:14. so lets see how this conjunction “and” reveals Jesus as God. let the bible speak,

Titus 2:10 "Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things”. here the scriptures clearly identifies “GOD” as OUR, OUR, OUR, Saviour, hold that thought. now staying in Titus, chapter 1. Titus 1:3 "But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour”. here clearly again GOD is OUR, OUR, OUR Saviour correct…. Good, now back to chapter 2, listen carefully. verse 13, Titus 2:13 "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ”.. WHAT, HOLD IT, is not God our saviour? what happen, now Jesus Christ is our saviour?

so, who is our, our, our, Saviour? Jesus Christ?, but did it not also say “AND” the Great God. well many say the Father is the GREAT GOD, and he saves through the Lord Jesus the Son. well lets see if this is true. Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour”. I is a single designation of only ONE person. and he clearly states, “and beside me there is no saviour”. (me indicate only ONE person), now if Jesus as Son is a distinct and separate Person from the Father, and the trinity doctrine clearly teaches that the Father is not the son then either God lied in Isaiah, or the man made trinity lied. because if God is three person, and one of them said beside "me" there is no saviour, then the other two are not the "SAVIOUR", plain and simple. well God don’t lie, (whichever the person you listen to in the so call Godhead...

), only one is the SAVIOUR, and Titus as well as all the other letters and apostles states Jesus Christ is saviour. meaning "ONLY" one person is saviour. which leaves that man made trinity doctrine as a false deception, an error..

see how easy it is to expose the devil lie of three person by scripture. so the GREAT GOD is Jesus the one in the same Person who is the only Saviour, so the book of Titus is true with the usage of “and” as well as the book of James, and the doctrine of the trinity a error by men.

another scripture has fallen.

PICJAG

DNB · Apr 4, 2020

101G said:
Let's get in one more before DNB post his reply.

Scripture #5 that was posted.

2 Corinthians 13:14 "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen”.
Just see the last few post and it covers this, but lets examine it a little closely for another scripture posted will this answer also.

notice the conjunction “AND” used between the Lord Jesus Christ, God, and the Holy Ghost. I know they use “and” as a separator to indicate three persons. well lets expose this side of the doctrine. scripture, James 1:27 "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world”. HOLD it “before God and the Father?”. is this two person?, meaning God and Father. are this two separate and distinct persons as indicated by the conjunction "and"? no, of course not. just as in using “and” in 2 Corinthians 13:14 to indicate 3 persons? see the error.

see how easy it is to expose the devil lie of three person by scripture. so the GREAT GOD is Jesus the one in the same Person who is the only Saviour, so the book of Titus is true with the usage of “and” as well as the book of James, and the doctrine of the trinity a error by men.

another scripture has fallen.

PICJAG

Sorry 101G, I may have entirely misunderstood your OP, entirely! I'm not sure if you're modalist either, but I trust not trinitarian.
I'm going to refrain from responding until i read a few more posts, and get a clearer understanding of what your position is.
Just for the record, I'm not trinitarian nor modalist, as you may have already gathered by now?

101G · Apr 4, 2020

DNB said:
Sorry 101G, I may have entirely misunderstood your OP, entirely! I'm not sure if you're modalist either, but I trust not trinitarian.
I'm going to refrain from responding until i read a few more posts, and get a clearer understanding of what your position is.
Just for the record, I'm not trinitarian nor modalist, as you may have already gathered by now?

first thanks for the reply, second no problem, if what I post can be a help someone .... thank God and not 101G. for he gave this to me "freely", so like wise I freely give it also. please understand this is for ears who want to hear the truth. but I believe I have stated what I believe in, I'm just what the Lord Jesus say he is, the Diversity or the "offspring" of God himself in flesh. and this is confirmed by the knowledge of the Greek term G243 Allos, which clearly reveals the Godhead as the "numerical difference of "ONE" person in the Godhead. the key to understand the Godhead as the Holy Spirit throught his holy apostle Paul said, Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse".

if God said that his eternal power, and his ... Godhead are understood by the things that are made then we should have no problem understanding his Godhead, as he also said, we are without excuse NOT to know. it's plainly in front of us, directly in front of our eyes. the apostles knew it, the disciples knew it, and the early church members knew it, and today some know it, only a very few, (I can only think this). I thank God that he as he did his apostle, and disciples and the early church has revealed it unto me. not bragging, for there is no time for that nonesense. but the Godhead is plainly seen right in of us fro Genesis to Revelation in the Holy bible.

But I hope I can post something that may make sense to your Faith in God. that i can only Hope for.

be blessed,

PICJAG

DNB · Apr 4, 2020

101G said:
first thanks for the reply, second no problem, if what I post can be a help someone .... thank God and not 101G. for he gave this to me "freely", so like wise I freely give it also. please understand this is for ears who want to hear the truth. but I believe I have stated what I believe in, I'm just what the Lord Jesus say he is, the Diversity or the "offspring" of God himself in flesh. and this is confirmed by the knowledge of the Greek term G243 Allos, which clearly reveals the Godhead as the "numerical difference of "ONE" person in the Godhead. the key to understand the Godhead as the Holy Spirit throught his holy apostle Paul said, Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse".

if God said that his eternal power, and his ... Godhead are understood by the things that are made then we should have no problem understanding his Godhead, as he also said, we are without excuse NOT to know. it's plainly in front of us, directly in front of our eyes. the apostles knew it, the disciples knew it, and the early church members knew it, and today some know it, only a very few, (I can only think this). I thank God that he as he did his apostle, and disciples and the early church has revealed it unto me. not bragging, for there is no time for that nonesense. but the Godhead is plainly seen right in of us fro Genesis to Revelation in the Holy bible.

But I hope I can post something that may make sense to your Faith in God. that i can only Hope for.

be blessed,

PICJAG

Well, are you saying that Jesus was divine? If so, I would not agree. I don't think that the verses that you quoted substantiate that. There is a difference between creation revealing certain attributes of God, namely His omnipotence, transcendence, omnipresence, etc.. But, due to His transcendence, it would not necessarily imply that He has the capability or need, to become a human offspring. God in the flesh is entirely implausible. Everything that makes God divine, is antithetical to what makes a man human. One is fallible, the other infallible, one is mortal, the other immortal, one is corporeal, the other transcendent and Spirit, one is finite in knowledge, power and presence, the other is infinite in all these, etc...

101G · Apr 4, 2020

DNB said:
Well, are you saying that Jesus was divine? If so, I would not agree. I don't think that the verses that you quoted substantiate that. There is a difference between creation revealing certain attributes of God, namely His omnipotence, transcendence, omnipresence, etc.. But, due to His transcendence, it would not necessarily imply that He has the capability or need, to become a human offspring. God in the flesh is entirely implausible. Everything that makes God divine, is antithetical to what makes a man human. One is fallible, the other infallible, one is mortal, the other immortal, one is corporeal, the other transcendent and Spirit, one is finite in knowledge, power and presence, the other is infinite in all these, etc...

First thanks for the reply, second, I'll answer that question quickly. #1. that flesh and bone that was born of the virgin is not God the Spirit that dwelt in it. that flesh was only the cloke, or vesture, or the working clothes for God, because he had a dirty Job to do suffer and die for the sins of the world. this cloke, or vesture, or working clothes is what is called the OUTER MAN, the Son of God, flesh. now the INNER MAN, the Spirit, the Son of man the "EQUAL" share of God in flesh did not while with blood have any of his Godly Powers, why and why not. why not for the flesh that the Spirit was in had to die, and if he was glorified from the start, ... in flesh he could not die. so by taking on NATURAL, (born of the virgin), and the second reason in natural is to G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') himself while in that flesh .... with blood. this is supportive by Philippians 2:7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men". see it now. as the "diversity" or the offspring, or the "ANOTHER" of God in flesh the G243 allos of himself, now as the "offspring" of himself he can accomplish the suffering and dying on the cross as a natural man. this is why his "diversified" spirit is reference in the Lower case "s" in spirit. I hope that answered your question., but if not as we go on you will see it.

Scripture #6 that was posted.

1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one”
This just get easy as it goes on. and while we’re at it lets get the very next verse also, 1 John 5:8 "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

alright the first verse, 1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one”.
YES, for there are three …… TITLES…… that bear record in heaven for, the title, Father, Word, and the Holy Ghost, are titles of the ONE person, God who is the Holy Spirit, God himself. these are just that …. TITLES …. how do we know this, for the answer is right in the verse itself. listen, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one” did one see the highlighted word “these” its a plural form of “this”. this is not a person, but the title of the person. if the verse would have said, “and “THEY” are one, yes, then we could pack up our bags and go home, game over. because the term “They” indicate PERSONS, more than one, and not the person title. the reason why the verse said, “THESE” because Father, Word, and Holy Ghost are “TITLES” and not separate and distinct persons. BINGO. that was easy, and we can see it clearly in the very next verse, listen, 1 John 5:8 "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one”.

now tell me what is “spirit”, “water”, and “blood?” … drum roll please………. a man, meaning a PERSON. see it now, the spirit is not the person itself, if it has no body, which is made up mostly of “water”, that live by “Blood”. BINGO. see it now? a person is made of, 1. spirit, 2. water, and 3. blood. see, these, these, these, three…. “these” three are one. for a man is spirit, water/body, and blood. .. BINGO.

so no again, 1 John 5:7 is no trinity scripture.

I tell you I haven’t hear a peep for any trinity defenders, I thought for sure they would put up a fight, or argument, but not a word.

PICJAG.

DNB · Apr 4, 2020

101G said:
First thanks for the reply, second, I'll answer that question quickly. #1. that flesh and bone that was born of the virgin is not God the Spirit that dwelt in it. that flesh was only the cloke, or vesture, or the working clothes for God, because he had a dirty Job to do suffer and die for the sins of the world. this cloke, or vesture, or working clothes is what is called the OUTER MAN, the Son of God, flesh. now the INNER MAN, the Spirit, the Son of man the "EQUAL" share of God in flesh did not while with blood have any of his Godly Powers, why and why not. why not for the flesh that the Spirit was in had to die, and if he was glorified from the start, ... in flesh he could not die. so by taking on NATURAL, (born of the virgin), and the second reason in natural is to G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') himself while in that flesh .... with blood. this is supportive by Philippians 2:7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men". see it now. as the "diversity" or the offspring, or the "ANOTHER" of God in flesh the G243 allos of himself, now as the "offspring" of himself he can accomplish the suffering and dying on the cross as a natural man. this is why his "diversified" spirit is reference in the Lower case "s" in spirit. I hope that answered your question., but if not as we go on you will see it.

Scripture #6 that was posted.

1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one”
This just get easy as it goes on. and while we’re at it lets get the very next verse also, 1 John 5:8 "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

now tell me what is “spirit”, “water”, and “blood?” … drum roll please………. a man, meaning a PERSON. see it now, the spirit is not the person itself, if it has no body, which is made up mostly of “water”, that live by “Blood”. BINGO. see it now? a person is made of, 1. spirit, 2. water, and 3. blood. see, these, these, these, three…. “these” three are one. for a man is spirit, water/body, and blood. .. BINGO.

so no again, 1 John 5:7 is no trinity scripture.
I tell you I haven’t hear a peep for any trinity defenders, I thought for sure they would put up a fight, or argument, but not a word.

PICJAG.

Ok, you are a modalist. I keep pressing the issue, so that i know how to respond to you. Where to refute, and where to agree.
You seem to have a reasonable knowledge of Greek, or you are a good researcher. But, on the other hand, why in the world would you spend time addressing the Comma Johanneum, when anyone with just a cursory knowledge of our manuscript tradition, knows that it's not an authentic Biblical verse? Even the most 'astute' trinitarians would know that.

Spirit cannot die, there is no sacrifice or threat when the immortal 'dies', for the mortal. There is nothing exemplary in such an pseudo act of obedience and sacrifice. You make a farce of God's judicial system by making such claims. Jesus, the 200% human, died on the cross for something that he didn't deserve, in the hope that God will accept his sacrifice, and raise him from the dead. This is the beauty of the Gospel, of Christ's love and faith, and of God's wisdom. Not the utter absurdity of God loving and obeying Himself, and then raising Himself from the dead.
101G, you see my point, right?

The doctrine of the trinity, it's origins

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