The doctrine of the trinity, it's origins

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DPMartin

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well thanks for the reply, second are you sure of what you're saying? example,

using the Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments, "OFFSPRING",
G1085 γένος genos (ǰe'-nos) n.
kin.
{abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective}
[from G1096]
KJV: born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock

.
Mickelson and or Strong didn't translate the KJV of which you didn't use in your OP. if my memory serves two teams of 20 experts in Hebrew Greek and Latin were commissioned by the English King to make a English translation. therefore much more knowledgeable then you on what should be understood in English from the texted they had to translate from.

this is the real definition of offspring in the exhaustive OED and diversity wasn't found in the definition of offspring:

1. The progeny which springs or is descended from some one; children or young (or, more widely, descendants) collectively; progeny, issue. Applied without indef. art. to a number, or to one; with indef. art. always collective, and usually with an adj., as a numerous offspring. (Rarely of plants.)
c949 in Kemble Cod. Dipl. II. 300 Þis sy gedon for Siferð and for his ofsprincg. c1000 Ælfric On O. & N. Test. (Grein 1872) 3 Eall heora ofspring ðe him of com. c1175 Lamb. Hom. 75 On adam and on eue and on al heore ofsprinke. c1200 Ormin 16446 Þatt all hiss offspring shollde ben Todrifenn and toskeŠŠredd Inn all þiss middellærd. c1275 Duty Christians 21 in O.E. Misc. 142 We beoþ alle his of-sprung. 1297 R. Glouc. (Rolls) 499 To him and to his of spring [v.rr. ospryng, osprynge]. a1300 Cursor M. 135 (Cott.) Siþen i will of adam tell, Of hys oxspring [Gött. hospring; Trin. ospringe], and of noe. c1400 Mandeville (Roxb.) vii. 24 Whare Iacob þe patriarc and his offspring dwelt. a1547 Surrey Æneid iv. (1557) Diij, Of Goddish race some ofspring shold he be. a1577 Sir T. Smith Commw. Eng. (1609) 14 Any of his sonnes or of spring. 1632 J. Hayward tr. Biondi's Eromena 187 Not onely a mother of a numerous off-spring, but also likely to be shortly a grand-mother. 1712 Steele Spect. No. 263 31 The Son endeavouring to appear the worthy Offspring of such a Father. 1770 Goldsm. Des. Vill. 168 To tempt its new-fledg'd offspring to the skies. a1814 Forgery iii. ii. in New Brit. Theatre I. 474 The joyful promise of an off~spring from thee. 1875 Bennett & Dyer Sachs' Bot. 820 In the variety-hybrids [of plants]+some of the non-essential characters of the parents sometimes present themselves in the offspring uncombined side by side. 1881 J. Owen Even. w. Skeptics I. 446 The modern hereditarian regards himself as the offspring mentally as well as physically of a long line of ancestors.

b. Rarely in pl.: †(a) in individual sense = children or descendants (obs.); (b) in collective sense = progenies, broods, families.
a1548 Hall Chron., Edw. IV, 237 The erle of Richemond, one of the ofsprynges, of the bloud of kyng Henry the sixte. 1675 Traherne Chr. Ethics 300 As the woman was the glory of man, so were their off-springs the glory of both. 1686 Plot Staffordsh. 277 The Naturalists took care to transmit to Posterity the birth-places+of all numerous Off~springs. 1756 W. Toldervy Hist. 2 Orphans IV. 209 The widows, and the offsprings of the poorer, the indigent clergy. 1808 Mem. Female Philos. I. 73 How much do these beloved offsprings add to our love and our happiness!

c. fig. Of persons in relation to place of birth, or origin.
1695 Tryon Dreams iii. 27 Man+is an Abridgment or Epitome thereof [the World], or if you please, its Son, or Off-Spring. 1697 Dryden Virg. Georg. i. 685 And there Euphrates her soft Off-spring arms. a1839 Praed Poems (1864) II. 300 Beautiful Athens, we will weep for thee; For thee and for thine offspring!

2. fig. That which springs from or is produced by something; produce, product; issue, outcome, result; ‘fruit’. a. usually collective.
1609 Bible (Douay) Lev. xix. 25 The fifth yeare you shal eate the fruites, gathering the ofspring, that they bring forth. 1666 Boyle Orig. Formes & Qual. Wks. 1772 III. 72 The prolific buds that are the genuine ofspring of the stock. 1669 Sturmy Mariner's Mag. Ded., Accept+this Off-spring of some spare Hours. 1725 N. Robinson Th. Physick 209 Whey is the Offspring of Milk. 1826 Kent Comm. (1858) I. 4 The law of nations+is the offspring of modern times. 1856 Froude Hist. Eng. (1858) I. i. 69 The discoveries of Newton were the offspring of those of Copernicus.

†b. with an and pl. in individual sense. Obs.
1609 Bible (Douay) Ezek. xxxvi. 30, I wil multiplie the fruite of the tree, and the offsprings of the filde. 1748 Hartley Observ. Man ii. iii. §1. 200 Almost all Kinds of Vice are the Excesses and monstrous Offsprings of Natural Appetites. 1760–72 H. Brooke Fool of Qual. (1809) IV. 44 Our spirits are the offsprings of his divine spirit. a1814 Forgery iii. ii. in New Brit. Theatre I. 465 These dark engender'd looks,+offsprings of detestable despair.

†3. A generation (sense 5). Obs.
a1300 Cursor M. 11415 (Cott.) Þar þai offerd, praid, and suank, Thre dais noþer ete ne dranc, Þus thoru ilk oxspring [Gött., Trin. ospring, Laud ofspryng] þai did. 1587 Golding De Mornay vi. 63 Ye begetting, ingendring and spreading foorth of al things from offspring to offspring.

†4. The fact of springing or descending from some ancestor or source; descent, origination, derivation, origin. Obs.
c1420 Sir Amadas (Weber) 48 Y-comen of hye ospryng. c1510 Barclay Mirr. Gd. Manners (1570) Dijb, Eacus+Of whom this saide Pyrrus had his birth and ofspring. 1551 T. Wilson Logike 10b, These vertues, though their ofspryng bee from God, yet tyme maketh theim perfecte in the iyes of man. 1644 J. Berkenhead Serm. 4 All the armies upon earth were to deduce their offspring from that one Adam, by generation. 1698 J. Crull Muscovy 3 The+Duina owes its name and off-spring to a Lake of the same Name. 1715 M. Davies Athen. Brit. I. 283 A great inlet into the offspring of those Deluding Antiquities.

†b. transf. Family, race, stock; ancestry. Obs.
a1300 Cursor M. 13598 (Cott.) Þe neist men of his oxspring Did þai þan be-for þam bring. c1300 Harrow. Hell 20 And so wes seid to Davyd the kyng, That wes of Christes oune ofspryng. c1440 Promp. Parv. 372/1 Osprynge+idem quod kynrede. 1560 J. Daus tr. Sleidane's Comm. 12b, The Frenchmen come of the same ofspringe that we do. 1582 Stanyhurst Æneis ii. (Arb.) 46, I may not, I wyl not deny my Greecian ofspring. 1612 Brerewood Lang. & Relig. xiii. 117 What if the innumerable people of+the huge continent of America, be also of the same off-spring?

†5. That from which anything springs or originates: spring, fountain, source, original. Obs.
1538 Leland Itin. V. 64 Wher as the very Hed of Isis ys in a great Somer Drought apperith very litle or no water, yet is the stream servid with many Ofspringes resorting to one Botom. 1597 A. M. tr. Guillemeau's Fr. Chirurg. 22b/1 Having discovered and denudatede the Polipum vnto his roote or first offspringe and originalle. 1604 Parsons 3rd Pt. Three Convers. Eng. 85 The fountaines or offsprings, from whence this diuersity hath taken her beginninge.

¶The alleged sense ‘Propagation, generation’, repeated in Dicts. from J., appears to be an error, J.'s quot. being app. in sense 1.
1594 Hooker Eccl. Pol. i. v. §2 That which cannot hereunto [to eternal existence] attain personally, doth seek to continue itself another way, that is by offspring and propagation.

and James Strong was an American Methodist biblical scholar and educator, the creator of Strong's Concordance. that isn't even British who would use the English view and understanding of the use of the English language. instead he's a American with American views in the use of the English language who isn't in the class of expertise as would be the original translators. so KJV is an English translation translated by the English, not Americans. so its wiser to use the language as understood at the time of the translation not something put together over a hundred years later.

again in the English definition of the English word offspring there is no mention of diversity. doesn't matter what strong thinks it means. it matters what the English say it means because its English you are reading.


also many try to use the use of a Greek or Hebrew word in the context of a lexicon to define what an English word means when it comes to the bible to deceive and mislead the meaning of the text to the unsuspecting. for their own purposes. so you're not the first to try this.

were done here
 
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101G

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When someone calls a true doctrine false, and false doctrines true, it means that there is no light in them.

To the Law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this Word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isa 8:20)
so we can take this as you have no response to Post#178? .... :rolleyes:

Vain babbling, if you cannot respond with a frutful response.... see ya

PICJAG
 

101G

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ickelson and or Strong didn't translate the KJV of which you didn't use in your OP. if my memory serves two teams of 20 experts in Hebrew Greek and Latin were commissioned by the English King to make a English translation. therefore much more knowledgeable then you on what should be understood in English from the texted they had to translate from.

this is the real definition of offspring in the exhaustive OED and diversity wasn't found in the definition of offspring:
well,well,well, thank Godat least one is trying to study, but fall short. listen, Dictionary.com. Diversity, and please look it up.
the state or fact of being diverse; difference; unlikeness:
diversity of opinion.
variety; multiformity.
the inclusion of individuals representing more than one national origin, color, religion, socioeconomic stratum, sexual orientation, etc.:

well DPMartin how do one get individuals representing more than one national origin. scripture, Genesis 1:28 "And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth". now this, Acts 17:26 "And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation"

now DPMartin how doone get nations of people? throught procreation of children, which ar called... drum roll... "OFFSPRING",BINGO

so to get the "varity"/Diversity of "Offspring" meaning many different nation is to Be fruitful, and multiply that's basic bible DP

so try agai, but I do comend you on at least studying.... :)

PICJAG.
 

101G

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again in the English definition of the English word offspring there is no mention of diversity. doesn't matter what strong thinks it means. it matters what the English say it means because its English you are reading.

were done here
so now you're upset with God, Stronge, and Mickelson, just because you cannot comprehend Spiritual truth? and now you want to take your ball and go home? you said I didn't put this definition in my OP, well I put this in the OP, "this is a discussion", but if you're "DONE", then you're doing me a favor.

so see ya.
 

101G

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it’s amazing how, and when people life long believing in a doctrine get the fire knocked out of it, resort to leaving. if one doctrine is true it will stand the test of the fire. but if it’s not true, them as the Lord said through his apostle,
1 Corinthians 3:11 "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:12 "Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1 Corinthians 3:13 "Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1 Corinthians 3:14 "If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1 Corinthians 3:15 "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire"

fire remove any false doctrine, but the person can be save by the same "FIRE", so take hope.

PICJAG.
 

Grailhunter

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I have shared with you privately what He spoke to me on this subject and reading some posts I have received even more clarification.....
One thing that really got my attention was that the Trinity teaching was a doctrine created by man.....that is a big issue for me because I refuse to follow any doctrine that man has created....the only doctrine I follow is that which the Apostles taught.
I want to know about this....
 

Heart2Soul

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I want to know about this....
I would rather not get into it too deep because I am just now learning some things I had not known before....and I am still seeking His Wisdom on the matter.
 

Grailhunter

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I would rather not get into it too deep because I am just now learning some things I had not known before....and I am still seeking His Wisdom on the matter.
Look into why the formula of the Trinity came into being. It connects to other topics so good luck.
 
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Grailhunter

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I would be happy to....got any links?
lol College degree in theology. I will tell you that the most popular formula for the Trinity is wrong. Strangely enough it has to do with the threat of the Gnostics during the time of the counsels. Not to say that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are not united....just not one person/or God.
 
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101G

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The Intrinsic Spatial of God in flesh.

the OT as well as the NT reveals God in the flesh. Example. Zechariah 13:7 "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones”.

here is another of God’s revealing himself to man by the prophets. everyone knows that the shepherd here is the Lord JESUS right, for, Matthew 26:31 "Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad”

hold it, “I will smite the shepherd?”. well the scripture here in Zechariah 13:7 holds this key. it’s in the term “Fellow” the man that is God’s “fellow”. so what do it means? “Fellow”, H5997 עָמִית `amiyth (aw-meeth') n-m.
1. companionship.
2. (hence, concretely) a comrade or kindred man.
[from a primitive root meaning to associate]
KJV: another, fellow, neighbour.
notice definition #2. “concretely”, and kindred man
but notice how the KJV can translate “fellow”… “ANOTHER”. (BINGO)
again, Jesus the shepherd, the GOOD shepherd is ANOTHER of God in flesh, (shared equally).


and as definition #2 states KINDERD MAN. where have we seen this before, … “OFFSPRING”, Revelation 22:16 "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star”.
and what do “Offspring” mean? G1085 γένος genos (ǰe'-nos) n.
kin.
{abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective}
[from G1096]
KJV: born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock
Root(s): G1096

there it is “KIN, as in kindred man, or “KINSman REDEEMER… BINGO.

this ia another example of God in flesh, the "Intrinsic Spatial" of God in flesh

man how easy this is, and we are still in the OT.



PICJAG
 

Heart2Soul

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lol College degree in theology. I will tell you that the most popular formula for the Trinity is wrong. Strangely enough it has to do with the threat of the Gnostics during the time of the counsels. Not to say that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are not united....just not one person/or God.
I found this article interesting....not giving it my seal of approval because I haven't researched to author yet....but he did bring up some history on how the trinity got started.
The Pagan Origins Of The Trinity Doctrine
 

Grailhunter

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I found this article interesting....not giving it my seal of approval because I haven't researched to author yet....but he did bring up some history on how the trinity got started.
The Pagan Origins Of The Trinity Doctrine
This guy goes off on a tangent.
Christian history is important to know.
The topic of the Trinity includes that history.
It involves the similarities of Christianity and Paganism, but Christianity is not Pagan.
It includes the social and religious politics of the time period.
It include the struggles between Christianity and Gnosticism.
It includes the affects of "merging" with the Roman Empire.
It includes the concepts and sources for the Logos.
It includes the removal of the names of God the Father and God the Son from the Bible.

All this happens after the close of the Bible....the first 65 years....so anything that happens after the close of the Bible Protestants are going to have a hard time dealing with. Not to mention that it is reasonably complicated.
 
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Grailhunter

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I found this article interesting....not giving it my seal of approval because I haven't researched to author yet....but he did bring up some history on how the trinity got started.
The Pagan Origins Of The Trinity Doctrine
I am going to put together a thread called Grailhunter's Corner and I will include a lot of detailed information there.
 
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Dcopymope

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Maybe not but there is such a thing as the whole counsel of God and moving on from glory to glory.

Ok well, put it this way, John states that Jesus was God in essence as his spoken "word", not the Father himself as a person. When the Father speaks, the spoken "word" moves as an instrument of his will. This is why it is stated that by Jesus all things were made and its because of him, the "word" that all things persist. Which is why the creation account routinely starts with the term "And God said", because he literally spoke all things into existence through the "word of God".

(Psalms 33:1-6) "Rejoice in the LORD, O ye righteous: for praise is comely for the upright. {2} Praise the LORD with harp: sing unto him with the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings. {3} Sing unto him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise. {4} For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth. {5} He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD. {6} By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth."

So if its true that Jesus was the Father as a person then the atonement itself was a fraud, because no death actually occurred. When "God Almighty" sent "the word" and became born as a man, "the word" was no longer a "living spirit" like his Father, but a "living soul", fully human, just like the first Adam. This is why all falsehoods need to be addressed, because it always snow balls into other falsehoods, like "Diversified Oneness". This farcical doctrine expects us to believe this outrageously absurd notion that the Father resurrected himself from the grave
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. Jesus says that a spirit does not have a fleshly body as his disciples saw him. Since the Father, "God Almighty" is pure spirit, and the "word of God" is now a living soul, the second Adam, then it means they cannot possibly be the same person.
 

Enoch111

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I found this article interesting....not giving it my seal of approval because I haven't researched to author yet....but he did bring up some history on how the trinity got started.
"The Pagan Origins Of The Trinity Doctrine"
Does that mean that you accept the nonsense about the Trinity being pagan? How about we turn that around and say that the pagans got that idea from Christianity?

The fact that this doctrine and the doctrine of the deity of Christ are constantly attacked by false religions and cults are evidence that it is Bible truth. Satan always attacks the truth.
 
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Dcopymope

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Does that mean that you accept the nonsense about the Trinity being pagan? How about we turn that around and say that the pagans got that idea from Christianity?

The fact that this doctrine and the doctrine of the deity of Christ are constantly attacked by false religions and cults are evidence that it is Bible truth. Satan always attacks the truth.

Its akin to the old accusations about the alleged pagan origins of Jesus himself and Christianity as a whole, the "copycat" theory that was commonly known by the word "Zeitgeist". All of it was proven to be false, and it turned out that it was actually the pagan religions that stole from Christianity, injecting Christian concepts into their own religions many centuries later. It just goes to show how much of an imitator Satan really is, and the lengths that he'll go to make himself appear like the most high to worldly heathens.
 

Heart2Soul

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Does that mean that you accept the nonsense about the Trinity being pagan? How about we turn that around and say that the pagans got that idea from Christianity?

The fact that this doctrine and the doctrine of the deity of Christ are constantly attacked by false religions and cults are evidence that it is Bible truth. Satan always attacks the truth.
It does not mean I accept it....however I am researching it because I have never challenged it and took it as Gospel....I am in prayer about it...thanks for asking and for your input
 
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